Post/Author/DateTime	Post
malignor 05-29-07, 04:15 PM	Behold, the evidence that brought me to this conclusion: An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#lightOneHandedandTwoHandedMe leeWeapons) (An unarmed strike is always considered light.) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#twoWeaponFighting) So, with that in mind, picture your fighter with the following feats. Weapon Focus/Specialization (Greatsword) Improved Unarmed Strike Two-Weapon Fighting (greater & improved) Weapon Focus/Specialization (Unarmed Strike) Power Attack, etc. = = = = = = = = I've not seen this concept on the boards yet. Has this been done before?
ReverendBSB 05-29-07, 04:21 PM	What about just using Armor Spikes as the secondary weapon. Less feats to get and more damage.
tui 05-29-07, 04:24 PM	Yeah, although it is usually done with Armor Spikes rather than Unarmed Strikes. Unless you're a Monk or some such, Armor Spikes usually work out better since they're easier to enchant.
Knightblde 05-29-07, 04:24 PM	Plus, you can enchant them if you want.
sirkently 05-29-07, 04:25 PM	Or just a spiked guantlet. We have a party member who uses a great axe and spiked gauntlet.
Harliquinn 05-29-07, 04:27 PM	Or just a spiked guantlet. We have a party member who uses a great axe and spiked gauntlet. You can't make the off-hand attack with the spiked gauntlet if you are using it to hold your weapon.
sirkently 05-29-07, 04:38 PM	You can't make the off-hand attack with the spiked gauntlet if you are using it to hold your weapon. But you can release one hand as a free action to attack with the spiked gauntlet.
Knightblde 05-29-07, 04:44 PM	You can't make the off-hand attack with the spiked gauntlet if you are using it to hold your weapon. Actually you can. It is a free action to drop an item. You can hold the Great Sword in one hand, you just can't wield it. You could make your attacks with it, then use the guantlet. I don't know if the rules cover grabbing it again. But almost any two handed weapon will require you to let go of it with one hand, and grasp it again many times throughout a fight. Take a stick, pretend it is a quaterstaff, now spin it around from the center and you will see what I mean. To take the options further, say you have +11 BAB. You could attack with a two handed weapon, release it with your main hand, quickdraw a dagger, throw it, quickdraw a longsword and attack with it twice. Or at least, that is my understanding of the rules. Happy Gaming!
jaelis 05-29-07, 04:48 PM	The nice thing about using unarmed strikes (rather than armor spikes) is that they can benefit from power attack. A greatsword+armor spike fighter gets a net 3:1 ratio on his power attack just from that. But armor spikes work real good too. The trifecta is to add an animated shield or improved buckler defense. Then you get the advantages of 2HF, TWF, and sword and board all at once. Woot! @knightblade: I wouldn't let you do that... if you used your left hand to help attack with the greatsword, then it's done... you can't make another attack with it. (Unless your BAB allows anyway.) TWF lets you make separate attacks with your left and right hands, but no additional attacks with either.
sirkently 05-29-07, 04:52 PM	I've not seen this concept on the boards yet. Has this been done before? Just to get back to the original post, yes it has been done before, and in many different variations, as you can see.
Knightblde 05-29-07, 05:14 PM	The nice thing about using unarmed strikes (rather than armor spikes) is that they can benefit from power attack. A greatsword+armor spike fighter gets a net 3:1 ratio on his power attack just from that. But armor spikes work real good too. The trifecta is to add an animated shield or improved buckler defense. Then you get the advantages of 2HF, TWF, and sword and board all at once. Woot! @knightblade: I wouldn't let you do that... if you used your left hand to help attack with the greatsword, then it's done... you can't make another attack with it. (Unless your BAB allows anyway.) TWF lets you make separate attacks with your left and right hands, but no additional attacks with either. Actually Double Weapons let you use it. Both hands are then required at all times, but you still can gain an extra attack while using both hands on a single weapon. I do see your point, and I have nothing to say that your point is unreasonable or any less valid than mine, just different.
jaelis 05-29-07, 05:19 PM	Actually Double Weapons let you use it. Both hands are then required at all times, but you still can gain an extra attack while using both hands on a single weapon. Yes, but both attacks "count" as single-handed attacks... you don't get 1-1/2xStr to damage or bonuses on disarms and the like. And if you take such bonuses, the rules are clear that you can't make off-hand attacks in that round.
Knightblde 05-29-07, 06:42 PM	That would be a very good point in your favor.
Tony Vargas 05-29-07, 09:19 PM	Yeah, it's been done before. And it does have balance issues, because THF & TWF aren't that well-balanced to begin with. THF can be a bit overpowered, and TWF a bit underpowered. If you take this particular trick and compare it to othe TWFing options, it's noticeably overpowered. But, compare it to THF, and it's less obviously so (particularly once you get into stat requirements).
malignor 05-29-07, 10:04 PM	Yeah, it's been done before. And it does have balance issues, because THF & TWF aren't that well-balanced to begin with. THF can be a bit overpowered, and TWF a bit underpowered. If you take this particular trick and compare it to othe TWFing options, it's noticeably overpowered. But, compare it to THF, and it's less obviously so (particularly once you get into stat requirements).But, all else being equal, mixing TWF with a 2Hweapon and improved unarmed strikes is still better than 2Handed without TWF+IUS. As for the PA and unarmed vs. armor spikes, that's probably the best reason to go with IUStrike over armor spikes. Especially for a full-BAB, high strength character. Add in that animated shield, and you have a serious threat. I like that little suggestion up there. Plus, IUStrike is a solid choice for any martial class, providing a means to continue fighting after being disarmed, caught weaponless, sundered, or grappled. Add in the fact that Improved Grapple is also available and you have a nice little package of pain production. Still not in the same class as a caster, but it's good to take what you can get, right? Thanks for all the feedback :D PS: A good choice for this would be a TWF Ranger. No need for a high Dex. Just go all strength, and take PA and IUS as normal feats. I'd probably climb the respective chains too... impr grapple... stunning fist - rangers use Wis for spells, so they'd be able to take some advantage... ye olde Cleave & Great Cleave... Bull Rush and then Three Mountains Syle (which pins down your weapons of choice)... some good choices in that mix.
Stardust 05-29-07, 10:15 PM	The trifecta is to add an animated shield or improved buckler defense. Then you get the advantages of 2HF, TWF, and sword and board all at once. Woot! Actually when using a buckler (even with improved buckler defence), you take a -1 to hit when using a weapon in the off hand, which explicitly includes using the off hand to wield a two-handed weapon. Bows/crossbows are an exception, but for melee weapons, I don't know of a way to get rid of the penalty, so it depends if you want the to-hit or the AC, there is a small tradeoff necessary.
Tony Vargas 05-29-07, 10:17 PM	But, all else being equal, mixing TWF with a 2Hweapon and improved unarmed strikes is still better than 2Handed without TWF+IUS.All else isn't equal, though: TWF is more feat-intensive and required DEX as well as STR. But, yes, you can squeeze more damage out of it. This may sound like an odd powergamer quibble, but the Ranger's ability to TWF without investing in DEX carries another problem: his TWFing is only useable in light/no armor. To maintain a competative - or even non-abysmal - AC in light armor requires ::drumroll:: high DEX. Of course, if you're going for an all-offense character, that might not be a dealbreaker. IUS does have it's advantages, but armor spikes have most of them (can't be sundered or disarmed, don't need to be drawn, useable in a grapple) don't cost (martial classes) a feat to use, and do more damage out of the box, so it depends on how heavily you want to 'invest' in it.
Feroz 05-29-07, 10:20 PM	Next Question: Could you take multi-weapon fighting and do a 1-handed weapon/shield bash/armor spike/unarmed strike attack combo? >.>
Stardust 05-29-07, 10:23 PM	Next Question: Could you take multi-weapon fighting and do a 1-handed weapon/shield bash/armor spike/unarmed strike attack combo? >.> Well, from the SRD: MULTIWEAPON FIGHTING [GENERAL] Prerequisites: Dex 13, three or more hands. Not unless you have an extra arm. Also, even if you could take the feat, it doesn't grant extra attacks, it just reduces the penalty for each additional attack you're allowed on the basis of having additional limbs. No such luck.
Feroz 05-29-07, 10:27 PM	Well, from the SRD: Not unless you have an extra arm. Also, even if you could take the feat, it doesn't grant extra attacks, it just reduces the penalty for each additional attack you're allowed on the basis of having additional limbs. No such luck. *thinks* so could a thri-kreen in spiked armor, go crazy with 4 melee weapon attacks, plus unarmed strikes, plus a bite, plus armor spikes? Just the thought is kind of scary. It's like a living blade barrier or something.
Stardust 05-29-07, 10:36 PM	*thinks* so could a thri-kreen in spiked armor, go crazy with 4 melee weapon attacks, plus unarmed strikes, plus a bite, plus armor spikes? Just the thought is kind of scary. It's like a living blade barrier or something. Uhmm... no I don't think so... As I understand it, the whole multiweapon fighting things basically pans out like this: - As many attacks as your BAB allows with primary hand - One extra attack for each off hand. Whether you use these granted attacks to make unarmed/armor spike/shield attacks is up to you, but you still only get one extra attack per arm. - Possibly an additional bite attack, don't really know how that works. If I've got it wrong, somebody please correct me. Also, is there such a feat as improved multiweapon fighting? That would seem pretty scary if it granted 2 attacks per extra hand...
Jaxgaret 05-29-07, 10:53 PM	Yeah, it's been done before. And it does have balance issues, because THF & TWF aren't that well-balanced to begin with. THF can be a bit overpowered, and TWF a bit underpowered. Agreed. However (as I am sure you know Tony, but I felt like mentioning it), TWF is the better delivery package for characters with alternative methods for adding on damage per attack - in the form of Sneak Attacks or the Ranger's Favored Enemy bonus or the CoCL's Dex bonus to damage, etc. That is the reason for why vanilla THF is overpowered compared to vanilla TWF. It would otherwise unbalance the equation towards those methods of dealing additional damage per attack if TWF was inherently balanced to THF.
kalstrand 05-30-07, 01:17 AM	There is Improved Multi-weapon, Greater Multi-weapon, and possibly even Perfect Multi-weapon Fighting feats. I think they are found in the Monster Manual.
jaelis 05-30-07, 01:25 AM	Plus, IUStrike is a solid choice for any martial class, providing a means to continue fighting after being disarmed, caught weaponless, sundered, or grappled. Add in the fact that Improved Grapple is also available and you have a nice little package of pain production. What you want is two levels of monk. Up your unarmed damage, get the even better monk unarmed strike, +3 on all your saves, your choice of Stunning Fist/Imp Grapple and Combat Reflexes/Deflect Arrows and, oh yes, evasion. All it costs you is one point of BAB. Then go ranger or fighter, either way works. Totally sweet. Actually when using a buckler (even with improved buckler defence), you take a -1 to hit when using a weapon in the off hand, which explicitly includes using the off hand to wield a two-handed weapon. Sure, but you're trading -1 to hit for at least +1 to AC, plus shield bonuses are cheap so it's pretty quickly +4 or +5. It's a pretty good trade.
risner 05-30-07, 02:15 AM	But you can release one hand as a free action to attack with the spiked gauntlet. That isn't the problem. You can't use a hand to make a secondary attack if it was used to make a primary attack. So if you used the two hands to attack with the greatsword, then free action to go one handed on the greatsword, you still can't use the free hand to attack. You could use your knee or chest (armour spikes), but not the hand used in the two handed weapon attack.
Ruike 05-30-07, 08:33 AM	You seem to forget that each attack is not an actual attack, they are given as multiple chances to hit an opponent and deal damage during 6 seconds of combat (one round). Since you are using both hands to swing then both hands are considered used for the round and any remaining attacks can be used with the axe as is or drop it and use your remaining attacks from the style you're using but you can't switch mid way. for example you have +11/+6/+1 while using thf or +9/+4/-1 (main) +9/+4/-1 (off-hand) I'd let you use the great axe to make your +11/+6 then let go for your final +1 but it wouldn't benefit you any unless you realize its eating away at your weapon when you hit it or something. Since TWF includes penalties unless you state ahead of time for all your attacks you can't switch mid way. Using a large weapon is too slow to get attacks with your offhand unless you sacrifice two handed attacks. On another note Multiweapon feats really shouldn't be considered too strongly unless there is a drastic call for it. Pg. 109 of complete scoundrel and other places add items that can be added to extra places on the body. (boot blades elbow blades knee blades sleeve blades for CScoundrel, and braid blades and bladed cloak and if you are talented enough, tail blades. two of each and at level one with multi weapon fighting you have 2xdaggers (hands) 2xdaggers(boots) 2xpunching daggers (elbows) 2xshortswords (knees) 2xdaggers (sleeves) 1xdagger (braid) 1xdagger (cloak) for a total of 8 dagger attacks 2 punching daggers and 2 short swords, all of which qualify for sneak attack and only take a -4 to attack as per MWF. assuming you're a human rogue with an 18 str who took MWF you'd get 12 attacks at a +0 attack mod and +2 dmg (for all but the main which gets +4) and sneak attack on all of them of 1d6. Dear God don't let anyone do that. 150 posible damage is all right at high levels but at level 1 its just a little insane. keep in mind sneak attack just keeps going up. anything that lives through this barrage is either dang lucky or shouldn't be fighting a level 1 character.
Nachtwind 05-30-07, 08:43 AM	Well if I'm not very mistaken there is even a three ken weapon, which is designed as a double weapon wielded with 2 hands, but a three ken can wield two of them using two weapon fighting xD so let the cheese go on ;)
madbliza 05-30-07, 03:56 PM	Umm... personally, I think you wasted a feat. Why take Improved Unarmed Strike, when you could have just taken TWF and buy yourself a spiked guantlet. Unless you are a monk and get the higher damage with your fist, there is no way your damage input with your hand will do much. But with a spiked gauntlet you can add enchantments to it and raise your damage. This leaves a feat open and available.
malignor 05-30-07, 05:51 PM	Spiked gauntlets don't open the door for improved grapple or stunning fist. IUS does Spiked gauntlets are not something any decent DM would let your character sleep with. IUS is always with you. Spiked gauntlets are useless for Power Attack, as they are light weapons. Unarmed strikes are always applicable for PA Improved Unarmed Strikes do not cause debates or uncertainty regarding one's ability to use the 2Hweapon and the spiked gauntlet via TWF, because you can just kick em in the head as your "off hand".