Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gnarl 02-21-08, 04:08 AM	Hi guys, You probably have guessed the question, but does Thicket of Blades prevent the use of the Tumble skill? Is there some kind of official answer to this or is it another one of those at the DM's discretion things? Thanks, Gnarl
narack 02-21-08, 07:49 AM	If i remember Ticket of blade is for doing AOO at distance. Tumble prevent enemy to have AOO if you get the DC which is 2 per threaten enemy. Since you can threaten at distance you would increase his DC by +2 also all other square in melee. The thing is that with that feat merge with Combat reflex make people cry because if you got +5 dex attack just yourself bump the DC by 12 because you threated at distance 5 times + normal AOO = 6 AOO. the thing his that you only trigger the AOO once per square, so if he move 6 or more square your fine. the base DC is already 15. If the guy plan to do Tumble that mean he already plan to pass by a melee char or 2 so the DC is already bump to 15+2+2 = 19 you ass yours it goes up to DC 31 tumble. SO the final answer is no it's not preventing but damn they will fail their checks on it :P
Gnarl 02-21-08, 08:06 AM	Thicket of Blades says that any movement provokes an attack of opportunity, even a 5 foot step. In short, one texts says "provokes attacks of opportunity no matter what" and the other says "you avoid the attack of opportunity". I'm confused.
narack 02-21-08, 08:14 AM	so Thicket of Blades is not for distance AOO ?
CrimsonDeath 02-21-08, 08:32 AM	Thicket of Blades just causes 5' steps and Withdraw actions to provoke AOOs. Since it doesn't say anything about Tumbling, the normal Tumble rules should be in effect. If i remember Ticket of blade is for doing AOO at distance. Tumble prevent enemy to have AOO if you get the DC which is 2 per threaten enemy. Since you can threaten at distance you would increase his DC by +2 also all other square in melee. The thing is that with that feat merge with Combat reflex make people cry because if you got +5 dex attack just yourself bump the DC by 12 because you threated at distance 5 times + normal AOO = 6 AOO. the thing his that you only trigger the AOO once per square, so if he move 6 or more square your fine. the base DC is already 15. If the guy plan to do Tumble that mean he already plan to pass by a melee char or 2 so the DC is already bump to 15+2+2 = 19 you ass yours it goes up to DC 31 tumble. SO the final answer is no it's not preventing but damn they will fail their checks on it :P Even if that were what Thicket of Blades did, you can still only take one AOO per AOO-provoking event-- an enemy could run laps around you, and you'd only get one AOO due to movement. Also, the +2 Tumble DC modifier is for each enemy that threatens you as you move, not for each threatened square you move through.
Endarrion 02-21-08, 08:32 AM	Personally, I think a 3rd level maneuver trumps a measly DC 15 Tumble check. Of course, finding some middle ground might be nice, such as adding up modifiers to the Tumble DC based on the number of squares threatened or something. And I don't think there's been an official ruling on Tumbling VS Thicket. EDIT: Thicket of Blades just causes 5' steps and Withdraw actions to provoke AOOs. Nope. All movement.
BruceLeeroy 02-21-08, 04:29 PM	I've decided that in my games, Thicket of Blades will simply set the DC for the tumble check at the attack modifier of the person with Thicket of Blades, or default, whichever is higher. Thus, if the Level 5 Crusader has an attack roll modifier of +10, the rogue who wants to tumble through his threatened space must roll a 15 or better. If the Crusader is level 10, and has an attack roll modifier of +20, the DC for the tumble is 20. This allows thicket of blades to be useful against tumblers, but not outright negate them. This is, of course, a house rule. Another way to do it that I considered was to make the tumble check an opposed roll against the attack roll of the Thicket of Blades user. It depends on how optimized a game you run. If your rogues have +35 to tumble, you'll want this option. Either way, Thicket of Blades is a good stance, even if it doesn't interact with tumble at all. With the first option I mentioned, it's a little better, but not overwhelming.
Mr_Teapot 02-21-08, 06:27 PM	Thicket of Blades just causes 5' steps and Withdraw actions to provoke AOOs. Thicket of Blades says all movement provokes, and then gives those two examples of things that don't normally provoke but do now. But the text doesn't limit it to just those two effects. There's actually a lot of forms of movement that this question is a bit unclear on: Spring Attack, ToB charging maneuvers like Charging Minotaur, involuntary movement from Bull Rushing or Repelling Shield, ToB throwing maneuvers like Mighty Throw, etc. I would lobby for everything provoking under Thicket of Blades. But there's no clear resolution in the text, or anywhere official that I've seen.
InkBlot 02-21-08, 11:49 PM	so Thicket of Blades is not for distance AOO ? Nope. Check it out for yourself. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20061225a)
CrimsonDeath 02-22-08, 06:37 PM	Thicket of Blades says all movement provokes, and then gives those two examples of things that don't normally provoke but do now. But the text doesn't limit it to just those two effects. There's actually a lot of forms of movement that this question is a bit unclear on: Spring Attack, ToB charging maneuvers like Charging Minotaur, involuntary movement from Bull Rushing or Repelling Shield, ToB throwing maneuvers like Mighty Throw, etc. Good point. At the time, I had forgotten that certain other forms of movement don't provoke AOOs. Still, my point was that it only changes the type of movement that normally provokes AOOs. Once it's been determined that a type of movement provokes AOOs, a Tumble check should be able to negate that AOO. (Still, it might be best left up to DM discretion.) Note that the DC to avoid an AOO due to a 5' step would be 25, since you'd have to Tumble at your normal speed rather than half speed.