Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ergot 04-08-07, 10:01 PM	appraise any exotic item with no chance of failure balance on a severely obstructed, severely slippery, sloped surface less than 2" wide easily bluff someone into believing something almost too incredible to consider climb an uneven surface with some narrow handholds and footholds at full base movement maintain concentration while grappling on the deck of a storm-tossed ship in driving sleet easily translate intricate, exotic, or very old writing shift someone from hostile to indifferent as a full-round action examine, and bypass without disarming, along with your cohorts, a symbol of pain disguise yourself as someone of a different gender, race, and age category well enough to fool somone who is intimately familiar with the subject escape from masterwork manacles without touching the dice i'm not even going to approach forgery, suffice it to say that you can totally own dudes. gather information on a specific subject without arousing suspicion raise a tyrannosaurus as your faithful pet easily treat any wound, poison, or disease hide while sniping and moving initimidate pretty much anyone dunk a basketball with a running start -- as a small creature with a 20' move recall 6 useful powers/vulnerabilities of a 5HD monster hear a cat stalking over the din of battle, through a door, while distracted sneak while running open an amazing lock sway an audience from hostile to indifferent with a performance earn 20g a week for practicing your profession stand on your mount's back during movement or combat with no penalties find a footprint on hard ground on a moonless night -- 2 weeks after the print was made easily sense enchantment lift a small object from a person as a free action easily understand a strange or unique magical effect read lips from 250' forage for food and water for 15 other people while moving at half your overland speed swim in storm water with no chance of failure tumble at full speed through a foe on a severly slippery surface activate just about any magic item bind someone such that they will need to make a DC 50 escape artist check or: craft an ordinary breastplate in just 2 weeks. Hooray for craft skills. Not bitter, honest.
Zyrusticae 04-08-07, 10:42 PM	Hahaha... I love it! The craft skills are really in need of a major kick in the pants.
Kintara 04-09-07, 01:25 AM	Well, at least you make more per day than you would at a Profession. Breastplates would net you about 133 GP. Divide that by 14 and you'd be making more than 9 GP per day. Crafting requires magic to be really cool in D&D. Anyway, I don't disagree with the point. Quick creation should be more potent.
Critalondel 04-09-07, 02:35 AM	The list is funny because it's true. I remember how horribly frustrating it was the first time I tried to make someone with any sort of Craft skill -- he was a Wood Elf Ranger/Barbarian type, had Woodworking and Weaponsmith -- because it was going to take me weeks to sharpen a nice straight stick into a spear, make a decent club, lash a broken dagger blade to another nice straight spear-shaft, etc, etc. Silliness.
chucky 04-09-07, 12:15 PM	Thats why they made the fabricate spell...
ShinAkuma2 04-09-07, 12:35 PM	Thats why they made the fabricate spell... Yeah, because every Barbarian has access to magic.
Nephlite 04-09-07, 12:51 PM	The list is funny because it's true. I remember how horribly frustrating it was the first time I tried to make someone with any sort of Craft skill -- he was a Wood Elf Ranger/Barbarian type, had Woodworking and Weaponsmith -- because it was going to take me weeks to sharpen a nice straight stick into a spear, make a decent club, lash a broken dagger blade to another nice straight spear-shaft, etc, etc. Silliness. Clubs cost nothing; you can craft them for free. Quarterstaffs take less than a second.
StruckingFuggle 04-09-07, 01:06 PM	Yeah, because every Barbarian has access to magic. Well, one with a +30 craft modifier certainly should...
jadehawk 04-09-07, 01:33 PM	I think the point is that a character shouldn't have to use spells to make items quickly, particularly when they have a heinous craft check modifier. If I can make a 1st level character who can jump over a regulation height basketball net, then a level 15 craftsmithee should be able to make breastplate armour in a few days work.
StruckingFuggle 04-09-07, 01:43 PM	I think the point is that a character shouldn't have to use spells to make items quickly, particularly when they have a heinous craft check modifier. If I can make a 1st level character who can jump over a regulation height basketball net, then a level 15 craftsmithee should be able to make breastplate armour in a few days work. I never said it wasn't, I was merely disagreeing with the assertion that someone with +30 to a skill couldn't get their hands on Fabricate (with probably little trouble). But still: Okay, then... why should they be able to make a breastplate in a few weeks? In both cases, the huge jump and huge craft mod, you're still doing things far beyond and better than someone with a +1 to their check could do. Where do you get your numbers to determined just how fast someone should craft something based on their modifier?
jadehawk 04-09-07, 01:51 PM	I think its just a special modification inside the craft skill itself. IIRC, you can increase the DC of crafting by 10 to speed up the process.
kalstrand 04-09-07, 09:36 PM	I would be willing to bet it would take the best smith in the world 2 weeks to make a breast plate, so I don't see a problem with it taking 2 weeks using the craft skill.
ShinAkuma2 04-09-07, 11:28 PM	I never said it wasn't, I was merely disagreeing with the assertion that someone with +30 to a skill couldn't get their hands on Fabricate (with probably little trouble). Well, then, I'd have to say you're a little crazy...I've never seen a single-class Barbarian with a spell list. ;) Having someone else cast a spell =/= making the item yourself.
ergot 04-09-07, 11:40 PM	I would be willing to bet it would take the best smith in the world 2 weeks to make a breast plate, so I don't see a problem with it taking 2 weeks using the craft skill. That's beside the point; the other achievements listed are well beyond the capability of what the best person in the world can do. Why is Craft alone shackled to some arbitrary measure of realism when other skills (Diplomacy, Jump, Hide, Move Silently) allow for supernatural stunts? There's nothing heroic about making a breastplate in 2 weeks, is all I'm getting at. It's not even a damn masterwork breastplate. And, yes, fabricate owns honest toil. Every now and then I get this crazy urge to try something non-standard like 'Hey, maybe I'll make my own armor' and wind up eating a dong sandwich if I take more than 2 steps off the 'kill monsters and take their stuff' path.
chucky 04-10-07, 08:35 AM	You dont need a spell list to use gloves of fabrication :) To get a +30 skill check you would need to be either lvl 27 (aka epic) or any combination of levels and a high skill modifier item. All of which takes either high lvls or high amounts of money. You can do all the things that were listed quickly because they are all just things anybody can do quickly. With a high skill you just do it alot better. Beating a hunk of metal into a high quality item takes time. The better you are the faster you can make it but there is only so fast a low skill person can hit that metal to make it do what you want without magic. If you want to make a crafter that can actually make things faster just make yourself a dwarven psion shaper with access to the magic forges from the races of stone.
ergot 04-10-07, 09:47 AM	You dont need a spell list to use gloves of fabrication :) To get a +30 skill check you would need to be either lvl 27 (aka epic) or any combination of levels and a high skill modifier item. All of which takes either high lvls or high amounts of money. Not quite. 7th level character: 10 int (+0) skill ranks (+10) masterwork tools (+2) tools enchanted with a further (+3) competence bonus (900G) guidance (+1) divine insight (+12) [source: complete divine] OK, so that's only 28, but you get the idea. I acknowledge that it uses magic, but it uses magic that my character has access too, so neener. :P You can do all the things that were listed quickly because they are all just things anybody can do quickly. With a high skill you just do it alot better. Not quite true; take Diplomacy for example. A diplomat can take a paltry -10 penalty to do their thing 10 times as fast (1 full-round action vs 10). Beating a hunk of metal into a high quality item takes time. The better you are the faster you can make it but there is only so fast a low skill person can hit that metal to make it do what you want without magic. I see no need to shackle one particular skill with the bonds of reason when halflings are dunking from mid-court and rangers are tracking a ghost's fart through the salt flats. If you want to make a crafter that can actually make things faster just make yourself a dwarven psion shaper with access to the magic forges from the races of stone. Argh, the magic forges only work for dwarves. I guess that makes sense thematically, but it still sucks for me. Perhaps 50 unseen servant assistants, all taking 10. That'll give me a nice +100 to the check. :D
SpoonyBard 04-10-07, 11:07 AM	Did you notice that on that list was "Earn 20 GP a week practicing your profession" and nobody gave it a second thought? Craft makes you a profit. Craft is a money-making venture. The craft rules aren't based on getting you stuff, the craft rules are based on getting you stuff without giving you easy access to a huge pile of money. Think about it. If, with a huge craft mod, you make a suit of Full Plate in a month and SELL IT, that's a 1,000 GP profit. Now, I understand that in the scheme of DnD, 1,000 GP is not much at those levels, but compare to Profession and Perform, which don't allow one to earn anything CLOSE to that amount without having deific levels of the skills. With a +30 craft check, assuming your quick crafting whatever up to DC 40 (Which you're allowed to do), you make 160 GP worth of stuff in a week, 2/3 of which is profit. Compare to Profession, which scales at HALF your bonus instead of Craft's SQUARE OF your bonus. 160 (even 2/3 of that) is a LOT more than 20.
Steidas 04-10-07, 11:16 AM	10th level rogue (NPC Blacksmith). 13 ranks in Craft (Armorsmith) +6 from Int (Started with 16 Int, 2 for levels, then bought an object for +4) +3 for Skill Focus +30 for Superb bastardic magic hammer = +42 Normal DC for Chainshirt is 14 He beefs it up until it's 44 He took skill mastery, he can take 10 He gets 52*44 = 2288, meaning he would make like 2 chain shirts per week. 8 per month, he gets around 534gp every month for his services, 6000gp every year. Not a bad income, but a mage with fabricate makes a HELL of a lot more, and you have to consider he spends about 15 years paying for THAT hammer (90kgp :D )
SpoonyBard 04-10-07, 11:18 AM	...Seems to me like he should have just sat and kept the money he later spent on the hammer. XD That's one other problem I noticed with craft checks. The ability bonus items don't give enough bonus to raise income enough that it matters, and Craft is the best income skill.
Kintara 04-10-07, 12:21 PM	Did you notice that on that list was "Earn 20 GP a week practicing your profession" and nobody gave it a second thought?Oh, really? Nobody? ;)
SpoonyBard 04-10-07, 12:47 PM	Oh, really? Nobody? ;) **casts Disintigrate on Kintara** Yes. Nobody. :P
ergot 04-10-07, 01:07 PM	10th level rogue (NPC Blacksmith). I know a lot of dudes willing to invest 122,000 GP in 10th level rogues with crazy schemes for making armor. :D
OravennasBrother 04-10-07, 01:09 PM	I see no need to shackle one particular skill with the bonds of reason when halflings are dunking from mid-court and rangers are tracking a ghost's fart through the salt flats. Interesting description of Ranger Tracking skills. One note, from the SRD "You may voluntarily add +10 to the indicated DC to craft an item. " Which means you cannot get "Craft Skill Squared" at higher levels. At lower levels the +10 Difficulty does make it work better for making money, except making money with craft. Again by the SRD "You can practice your trade and make a decent living, earning about half your check result in gold pieces per week of dedicated work" Finally both Craft and Profession seem to suffer from being relegated to a "Non-Adventuring" category which prevents them from accomplishing an amazing feat worthy of legend, yet almost all the other skills DO get such mythical upprer bounds.
ergot 04-10-07, 01:12 PM	Interesting description of Ranger Tracking skills. One note, from the SRD "You may voluntarily add +10 to the indicated DC to craft an item. " You can add +10 as many times as you'd like, which is what yields "Craft Skill Squared".
StruckingFuggle 04-10-07, 02:40 PM	Well, then, I'd have to say you're a little crazy...I've never seen a single-class Barbarian with a spell list. ;) Having someone else cast a spell =/= making the item yourself. I didn't say they would be making the item themselves. Though technically, since a craft check needs to be supplied, it could maybe be done collaboratively if the wizard didn't have many ranks in Craft(Blacksmithing)... The point was, though, the original quote said "access to" to magic, not "able to craft it with their own magic" - And if you play standard D&D, there's no way you can get a +30 to a skill check without having access to magic. Does that mean that a wizard is a better craftsman than a barbarian? Yeah, pretty much - but hey, maybe crafting elaborate armor and weapons really IS best left to the mages... I mean, it only makes sense that someone who can create something from nothing and who can tell the laws of physics to sit down and shut up would be able to wave their fingers and restructure the universe so that pile of metal becomes that suit of armor, and it doesn't make sense that the old fasioned blacksmithing, heating and hammering and putting in all the artistry ... it doesn't make sense for that to be significantly faster, or even comperable to, using magic. And it's not like the wizard beats out the blacksmith, because in using fabricate, he still needs to make the relevant craft checks. So wizard doesn't trump blacksmith, blacksmith wizard trumps blacksmith barbarian. Which is pretty much how it should be. (And crafting a whole suit of plate armor in about two weeks? That's still pretty dang near-epic. o.o)
OravennasBrother 04-10-07, 03:52 PM	You can add +10 as many times as you'd like, which is what yields "Craft Skill Squared". Oh Really? I would have to see the errata on that before I would believe it was anything other than an ATTEMPT to subvert the rules.
ergot 04-10-07, 04:19 PM	Oh Really? I would have to see the errata on that before I would believe it was anything other than an ATTEMPT to subvert the rules. useful www reference: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#craft wizards.com reference: http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/EpicSkills.rtf (And crafting a whole suit of plate armor in about two weeks? That's still pretty dang near-epic. o.o) Full plate in 2 weeks, yes. Unfortunately, I'm talking about a breastplate. It would take 10 weeks to make a suit of full plate with a +30 modifier.
Worloch 04-10-07, 06:03 PM	Not that this hasn't been addressed enough but ... 20th level Expert (gasp, NPC class!) +23 - 23 Ranks in Craft (Armorsmithing) +4 - 18 Int (13 base from the non-elite array, +5 from levels) +3 - Skill Focus (Craft) ------------------------------- +30 Total Easily done pre-epic by an NPC class using the non-elite array for stats and no magic items. You can also add a +2 racial bonus if the crafter is a dwarf working on metal armor.
aelryinth 04-10-07, 06:40 PM	I did an exercise like this for fun once. Let's see. Level 20 (23 ranks) +5 Insight (Magecraft spell) +8 Competence Superb Masterwork Tools (Magic of Rokugan) +30 Circumstance (Magic Item) Aid Another +8 (2 Helpers with Imp. Aid Another) +3 Skill Focus (feat) +4 Synergy Bonus from Related skill w 15 ranks. +2 Synergy Bonus from related Skill with 5 ranks. +2 Affinity bonus (feat) +4 racial (Dwarf or Gnome with Improved stonecunning) +5 Sacred bonus (Clerical skill boosting spell/blessed workroom) 1/2 time - Forgeroom of Haste doubles speed (stronghold book) +8 Int bonus (26 Int with magic and raises) =+102, and takes half the time normally indicated. With skill mastery to take 10, that's a check of 112. With raises to 100, that's 11200 sp, doubled because construction time is half normal. So. 22400 sp/week, or 2240 gp/week. Or, pounding out three masterwork swords a day, or full plate in two weeks. Since much of the time in, say, smithwork, is in the waiting for the blades to heat and cool, effectively this guy is simply working with molten metal all the time, and he can dyecast a masterwork sword, or pound a bar into the right shape in less then a minute. Either that, or he's simply working on dozens of weapons at the same time without any difficulty, and finishing up 3/day. ===Aelryinth This could get real silly if you simply use an artificer, get a bunch of +30 items, and then just set all the bonuses to different kinds. ===Aelryinth
ShinAkuma2 04-10-07, 10:09 PM	I didn't say they would be making the item themselves. Though technically, since a craft check needs to be supplied, it could maybe be done collaboratively if the wizard didn't have many ranks in Craft(Blacksmithing)... The point was, though, the original quote said "access to" to magic, not "able to craft it with their own magic" - And if you play standard D&D, there's no way you can get a +30 to a skill check without having access to magic. Well, that's the point of the thread, isn't it? "A character with +30 to this skill can do this amazing thing", not "A character with +30 to this skill and a relevant spell cast upon him can do this amazing thing", since oftentimes magic obviates the need for a skill check.
SpoonyBard 04-10-07, 10:47 PM	Well, that's the point of the thread, isn't it? "A character with +30 to this skill can do this amazing thing", not "A character with +30 to this skill and a relevant spell cast upon him can do this amazing thing", since oftentimes magic obviates the need for a skill check. Example: A halfling with +30 jump check can slam dunk... As can a halfling with the level 3 spell Fly.
StruckingFuggle 04-11-07, 04:43 AM	Well, that's the point of the thread, isn't it? "A character with +30 to this skill can do this amazing thing", not "A character with +30 to this skill and a relevant spell cast upon him can do this amazing thing", since oftentimes magic obviates the need for a skill check. Exactly what the guy above me said: heck, a breastplate in two weeks is pretty nifty, but magic is just plain better, and that holds true for most skills. And it might not be the point of the thread, but it's still a point: unless you have a beyond epic skill mod, magic is a better tool for crafting than a forge is; and there's nothing wrong with that. Just like how you can make a breastplate in two weeks with +30 craft but can't do it in two days (but can do several in a day with Fabricate); with +30 jump, a halfling can slam dunk, but he can't jump over tall castles in a single bound (but can soar over them with Fly). Still, okay, just how fast do you think a nonmagical blacksmith with +30 to craft(armor) should be able to make a breastplate, and how did you come to that number of days?
Kintara 04-11-07, 04:53 AM	=+102, and takes half the time normally indicated. With skill mastery to take 10, that's a check of 112. With raises to 100, that's 11200 sp, doubled because construction time is half normal. So. 22400 sp/week, or 2240 gp/week. Or, pounding out three masterwork swords a day, or full plate in two weeks. Of course at that level a similarly skilled acrobat can Balance on clouds. ;)
ergot 04-11-07, 07:56 AM	Exactly what the guy above me said: heck, a breastplate in two weeks is pretty nifty, but magic is just plain better, and that holds true for most skills. The issue is not whether mundane crafting should be better than magic. Magic has staked out a benchmark of '1 round' to make a piece of armor, it is extremely unlikely that mundane crafting is ever going to get anywhere within a factor of 5000 of that. Magic wins, no complaints here. Mages get to eat sundials when it is time to learn new spells, not when they're using them. What the issue here is that a skill point is a skill point, and if Jumping Charles, Dave the Diplomat, and Gormak of the Wilds each have a +30 to their checks and can do amazing things that make the rest of the party go "Damn, now I know why we keep this guy around" as a result, we should expect that Thorim the Hammer should be able to elicit a similar response instead of "He wants MORE downtime!?!" In D&D game terms, there's not really much difference between 4 weeks and 44 weeks: no party is going to be capable of keeping the ants in their pants under control that long, and no plotline worth playing out is going to weather so long of a break. With such timelines par for the course for use of the craft skill, why does every class (except for Warrior, and maybe 1 or 2 others) have Craft as an inclass skill? To put it another way, Craft is a skill that nearly every class has available. This implies something of a place in the game. Would it be too much to expect it to work such that players would consider using it? Still, okay, just how fast do you think a nonmagical blacksmith with +30 to craft(armor) should be able to make a breastplate, and how did you come to that number of days? I'm working on that.
Archangel62 04-11-07, 08:20 AM	I think it would be better if there were more mundane ways to augment items rather than just magic. If we had more options in that area then I think craft skills would end up working far better if only because we could then actually have a compelling reason to have the craft skill (aside from being a warforged).
sampsonj 04-11-07, 09:19 AM	Folks, I think you are missing one of the KEY factors mentioned right in the beginning of the DMG. If you recall, it DOES say that it is only a book of "suggestions." If the the DC level for a certain skill check is too low, RAISE IT! It really is the responsibility of the DM to adjust the game for good storytelling, not the game's responsibility to appeal to EVERYONE in ALL SITUATIONS. Now, go forth, and use your noodles! Make your stories great, adjust on the fly, and you will all have a good time. J.S.
OravennasBrother 04-11-07, 10:12 AM	Still, okay, just how fast do you think a nonmagical blacksmith with +30 to craft(armor) should be able to make a breastplate, and how did you come to that number of days? Well IRL a blacksmith starting with milled sheet steel would need no more than two days to make a functional breastplate - then the Specialist who makes the leather straps takes however long they take to fit the straps and buckels to the wearer (the plate is fitted when made, but the BUCKLES etc. still need work of their own) However I canot see how that would add more than two more days to the total. Starting with Barstock will take a LOT longer - probably around a week or so to get from bar stock to sheet steel. The reason milling steel became so popular was it saved an enormous amount of time in manufacture of metal items.
ergot 04-11-07, 11:04 AM	Folks, I think you are missing one of the KEY factors mentioned right in the beginning of the DMG. If you recall, it DOES say that it is only a book of "suggestions." If the the DC level for a certain skill check is too low, RAISE IT! It really is the responsibility of the DM to adjust the game for good storytelling, not the game's responsibility to appeal to EVERYONE in ALL SITUATIONS. Now, go forth, and use your noodles! Make your stories great, adjust on the fly, and you will all have a good time. J.S. Did you just suggest that the best way to address the potential problem with crafting is to simply make arbitrary decisions for the DCs of every other skill check? LOL.
Steidas 04-11-07, 02:45 PM	Did you just suggest that the best way to address the potential problem with crafting is to simply make arbitrary decisions for the DCs of every other skill check? LOL. Well, why not? If -5 makes full actions standard and -20 makes them free, then why not just add +30 to the DC to make the weekly period a daily period?
ergot 04-11-07, 03:01 PM	Well, why not? If -5 makes full actions standard and -20 makes them free, then why not just add +30 to the DC to make the weekly period a daily period? First, I don't think that's what he or I are addressing; I am pretty sure he's saying "If you can jump over a school bus with a +30, the DC for jumping over a school bus should be higher because you shouldn't be able to jump over a school bus" which, beyond being recursive, nullifies the point of having ranks in a skill. If the GM is just going to dictate what he believes to be the best story, the players don't really need to be there. Secondly, since when does -5 make full actions standard and -20 make them free?
Steidas 04-11-07, 03:09 PM	First, I don't think that's what he or I are addressing; I am pretty sure he's saying "If you can jump over a school bus with a +30, the DC for jumping over a school bus should be higher because you shouldn't be able to jump over a school bus" which, beyond being recursive, nullifies the point of having ranks in a skill. If the GM is just going to dictate what he believes to be the best story, the players don't really need to be there. Secondly, since when does -5 make full actions standard and -20 make them free? Im just giving an example. both of what USUALLY happens when you add a -5 to -20 modifier to climb or move silently you move faster and opening locks with -10 and -20 reduces the time it takes. That's why I SUGGESTED the -30 deal, since -20 is too low. I currently just use the rules As Is. I also put ranks in craft every now and then, just for the fun of it.
ergot 04-11-07, 03:20 PM	Im just giving an example. both of what USUALLY happens when you add a -5 to -20 modifier to climb or move silently you move faster and opening locks with -10 and -20 reduces the time it takes. That's why I SUGGESTED the -30 deal, since -20 is too low. Yes, there are some skills where a penalty speeds things up, but I think it's far from standardized. Something like that might work for Crafting if there was a standard table of the DC and time-to-craft for each thing someone might want to craft. The thing that is weird about the Craft skill as-written is that duration is calculated as a function of how good you are and how hard the thing you're trying to do is. Like if to pick a lock, you had to amass N 'pick points' and each round you got (Lock DC) * (Open Locks check result) 'pick points'. You could even incorporate the 'add 10' rule if you wanted to. I currently just use the rules As Is. I also put ranks in craft every now and then, just for the fun of it. Do you use it just for fun, or do you ever attempt to make anything?
Nadaka 04-11-07, 03:22 PM	A sword sage or warblade with greater insightful strike deals an extra 60 damage per hit with a +30 skill item. Edit: per hit using greater insightful strike (a standard action).
Steidas 04-11-07, 03:27 PM	Yes, there are some skills where a penalty speeds things up, but I think it's far from standardized. Something like that might work for Crafting if there was a standard table of the DC and time-to-craft for each thing someone might want to craft. The thing that is weird about the Craft skill as-written is that duration is calculated as a function of how good you are and how hard the thing you're trying to do is. Like if to pick a lock, you had to amass N 'pick points' and each round you got (Lock DC) * (Open Locks check result) 'pick points'. You could even incorporate the 'add 10' rule if you wanted to. Do you use it just for fun, or do you ever attempt to make anything? Oh I do actually make some rules, but debating them with someone like you who only criticizes and never adds anything new to the equation is just ridiculous. And yes, it is far from standarized, but it's the only guideline we've got. Plus, from the looks of people in Wizards, D&D ain't an economics game, why even change craft or add something good to it? Probably because alchemists would actually be playable.
Bhaal006 04-11-07, 03:37 PM	A quote from my DM "I go by whatever is fun, I don't think waiting 3 weeks craft something is fun so it if you want to make an item it takes 1 craft check, thats it." If it's not fun house rule it.
SpoonyBard 04-11-07, 04:24 PM	Okay, so crafting Arms and Armor isn't too useful... But what about Craft Alchemy? I know a lot of people with ranks in that, most of which USE said skill in their downtime. In fact, pretty much any craft skill OTHER than Armor (truly the most expensive mundane item you'd care to get) is useful and timely with a huge bonus.
ergot 04-11-07, 04:28 PM	Oh I do actually make some rules, but debating them with someone like you who only criticizes and never adds anything new to the equation is just ridiculous. Adding new things to the equation without thoroughly understanding the situation is what I like to call "a bad idea". There is certainly room for a better means of crafting items. As I have illustrated "just thow a -30 at it" isn't viable with the way the skill currently works. It's a pretty good example of adding new things to the equation without thoroughly understanding the situation. Critical analysis is generally more useful than off-the-cuff brainstorming. I don't really know where you're coming from, though; I can't tell whether you're agreeing or disagreeing half the time. If this is what you call 'debate' (I thought we were having a discussion), then... you win, I guess? Victory circle is in another thread, I'll meet you there later.
SpoonyBard 04-11-07, 04:38 PM	Looking at magic item creation... How about some Quick Craft feats for non-magic items? Something to reduce crafting time by a 1/4, 1/2 or (at epic levels) 9/10? Another idea friend of mine and I came up with was to allow non-magical enhancment bonuses with higher craft DCs. I believe the number we came up with was DC 24 for crafting a +1 weapon, with another 4 points to the DC for each additional +1 (so DC 40 to craft a +5 weapon.) You could put a few specific special abilities on them (like Keen and Throwing, but not Flaming or Spell Storing). I think we said that when doing this, your check result per wek was in GP instead of SP, because otherwise these things would never get done, ever.
Zelck 04-11-07, 08:48 PM	OK, this is more than a +30 skill modifier, but I think Craft is powerful enough... (originally posted by tsuyoshikentsu) This is a brilliant way to get a LOT of power. I'm assuming that Tyrany works the same as Leadership, since I don't have 7th Sea. I'm also assuming that you're not using hte Wealth system, and are instead using the good-old GP/credits system. (I'll be calling them GP for simplicity's sake.) For the sake of SOME balance, Extra Followers will only apply to ONE Leadership. And finally, I don't think Competence bonuses stack, but that's okay. I am, however, assuming your DM will see the sense in letting your sidekick and your cohort's bonuses stack, sinse it's sharing of expertise and by definition they have different expertise. THE CHARACTER AND HIS HELPERS The Character First, you are any evil human -- probably lawful evil. Max out INT and CHA. At the expense of EVERYTHING. CHA needs to provide as close to +9 as you can get, and INT needs to go as high as it can. Classes: Smart 10/Exemplar 1/UA Expert 4/UA Warrior 4/X 1//Cleric 1/Marshall 1/Wizard 17 Your domains are Artifice and Craft, and your Skill Mastery is Craft (Mechanical). For Warrior and Expert, your skills include Craft (Mechanical) and Diplomacy. Aura is Motivate Intelligence. Feats: Level 1: Artistic Crafter (Craft [Mechanical]), Engineer In whatever order you prefer, barring prerequisites Skill Focus (Craft [Mechanical]) Master Crafter Leadership Undead Leadership Tyrant Minions Sidekick Extra Followers Skill Emphasis (Craft [Mechanical]) Handy Mercantile Background (Craft [Mechanical]) Ordinary Past Student of the Arts (Craft [Mechanical]) This leaves you with an outrageous number of bonus feats from Smart. Take whatever you think would be helpful. The Cohort: Classes: Human UA Expert 4/UA Warrior 8/UA Spellcaster 1/Field Marshall 5//Marshall 1/Wizard 17. Background is Dillente, or whatever that +6 to Rep one is. Skills are Diplomacy and Knowledge (Tactics). Aura is Motivate Intelligence. Feats: Skill Focus (Craft) Personal Firearms Proficiency Fame x 14 EDIT #2A: The Sidekick: Classes: Human UA Expert 4/UA Warrior 8/UA Spellcaster 1/Field Marshall 5//Marshall 1/Wizard 17. Background is Dillente, or whatever that +6 to Rep one is. Skills are Diplomacy and Knowledge (Tactics). Aura is Motivate Intelligence. Feats: Skill Focus (Craft) Personal Firearms Proficiency Fame x 14 EDIT 2B: Followers/Minions: Your followers are all Human. In the case of your undead followers, they all have the Corpse template. Classes: Their classes, depending on their levels, are below. In parentheses is the number of each you get, assuming a Leadership score in each of 25. Level 1: UA Expert 1 (540) Level 2: UA Expert 2 (52) Level 3: Dedicated 3 (28) Level 4: Dedicated 3/UA Expert 1 (16) Level 5: Dedicated 3/UA Expert 2 (8) Level 6: Dedicated 5/UA Expert 1 (8) In the case of Dedicated, they all take Empathy, then Improved Aid Another, then Improved Aid Another. Skills always include Craft (Mechanical). All skill points are spent on bringing it up to highest rank for that level. Obviously, this means the Expert levels are taken last. Feats: Feats in parentheses are to be taken after the first two. Mercantile Background (Craft [Mechanical]) Skill Emphasis (Craft [Mechanical]) (Skill Focus [Craft (Mechanical)]) (Master Crafter) (Builder) If the follower is a Dedicated 3, substitute Cosmipolitan (Craft [Mechanical]) for Mercantile Background. PROCEDURE, PART ONE Every second of your and your lackeys' spare time is dedicated to making money. A good way to do this, once you, your cohort and your sidekick can cast flesh to salt (and later mass flesh to salt) is to get cows, change them into salt, and sell the salt for the going price. Your lower-downs can make wind-up toys or something. The point of this is to get... Brace yourself... 19 million GP. Yes, THAT much. Please pick up your jaw; with enough lackeys working around the clock, it's doable. And trust me, you have enough lackeys Besides, you're never gonna really be buying any, you know, EQUIPMENT or anything, aside from stat-boosting items. Just tell your party to wait and see, and have good faith. Or just show them this build, whichever. PROCEDURE, PART TWO Now, you have 19 million GP. But what to DO with it? The answer: Spend every copper of it on raw materials. Once you've done that, here's what you do: go to a plane where time goes very, very fast in comparison to the Material Plane. EDIT #2: I have found a way to cut down on this time even MORE by adding the Minions and Sidekick feats from d20 Past. I am assuming that Field Marshall bonuses from two sources stack, because it makes sense game-wise. Your DM results will vary. Every day, this is your procedure: --You, your cohort and your sidekick cast fabricate until both of you run out of spells. --All three of you activate your Motivate Intelligence auras. --You announce your Craft (Mechanical) check. --Your cohort and your sidekick use their August Leadership ability to add 48+CHA (Rep+CHA) to your check. (They don't fail this because he's got at least 9 ranks in Diplomacy.) --All of your first and second level followers Aid Another you, for (assuming your Leadership, Tyrant, Minions and Undead Leadership scores are all at least 25) a +1480 bonus on the check. (Note: None of your follower's checks fail, because their feat bonus is at least +5, plus at least four ranks in Craft [Mechanical]. Add in the 1 from the lowest possible roll, and they get a 10.) --All of your third and fourth level followers Improved Aid Another you, for (again, assuming scores of 25) another +165. --All of your fifth and sixth level followers Improved Aid Another x2 you, for another +80. --You take 20, thanks to Artistic Crafter. Your check total is: 23 Ranks Taking 20, Artistic Crafter +1d4, Handy +2, Skill Focus (Craft [Mechanical]) +2, Master Crafter +3, Skill Emphasis (Craft [Mechanical]) +2, Mercantile Background (Craft [Mechanical]) +2, Ordinary Past +2, Student of the Arts (Craft [Mechanical]) +CHA mod, your aura +Cohort's CHA mod, cohort's aura +Cohort's CHA mod, cohort's August Leadership +48, cohort's August Leadership +Sidekick's CHA mod, sidekick's aura +Sidekick's CHA mod, sidekick's August Leadership +48, sidekick's August Leadership +80, followers' Improved Aid Another x2 +165, followers' Improved Aid Another +1480, followers' Aid Another = +1917 total check result. Now, the difference in Craft DC between a wooden spoon and a jet engine is 25. As such, me and a fellow player/DM decided that the magnitude of complexity from a wooden spoon to a jet engine (DC 30) is about the same as from a jet engine to our target object. The conversation is funny enough to be repeated below. Me: Would you say that the difference in magnitude between crafting a spoon and crafting a jet engine is abut the same difference in magnitude between crafting a jet engine and crafting, say, a __________? Me: A wooden spoon, mind. (pause) Me: Yes, I know it's stupid, shut up. Me: Just answer it. Her: hm. Her: i would say not quite as magnificent. Me: ... Her: at least the jet engine and the _________ have the same basic mechanics involved. Her: A WOODEN SPOON, TUCKER. Me: No, no, no, we're talking degrees of complexity here. Her: oh. Her: then yes. Me: Okay. Anyway, we decided that an acceptable Craft DC was 55. If your DM says it's higher, hey, even better; it just means the work gets done faster. So. 1524 times 55 equals 83,820. Not counting fabrication, you'll get 8,382 GP worth of work done in a week. Of course, this will still take 130 years not counting fabricate. Nihility found the solution to the problem: voluntarily increase the DC of the target item until it equals 1515. That's an increase of 1460, if you care. Anyway, that means you get 230,886 GP done in a week -- so this'll take you about 4 and 3/4s of a year. EDIT #2: But then, that's the OLD number. Since our NEW check is +1917 (or 1917-48-sidekick's CHa mod, if the field marshall bonuses don't stack) we can crank that DC up to 1915. So, 1917 times 1915 is 3,671,055, which adjusted and rounded down is 367,105 GP per week, cutting your time down to JUST under three years. HUZZAH! So anyway, let's assume you do all that. What do you get? WHAT YOU GET http://www.theforce.net/swtc/Pix/books/egvv/vsd-eg1.gif That's right. A Vicstar. (Victory-class Star Destroyer.) Have fun with your new implement of destruction. And remember: it looks real good with a planeshifting helm on it. SOURCES Feats: Crystalkeep d20 Feat list (it's listed under 3.0, but has an "everything from d20" option.) Minion and Sidekick Feats: d20 Past Expert, Spellcaster and Warrior: Unearthed Arcana Marshall: Miniatures Handbook Smart, Dedicated, Dillente background: d20 Modern Core Rulebook Field Marshall: d20 Future Flesh to Salt: Sandstorm Victory-class Star Destroyer: Starships of the Galaxy And, According to the epic crafting rules (http://d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#quickCreation), you can "voluntarily increase the DC of crafting an item by any multiple of 10" for the purposes of speeding up creation. So, by increasing the DC to, say, about 1500, you do the same job in about 3.6% of the time. Thus, your 130-year job now takes you a little less than 5 years, all else being equal. And since that makes it go faster... G-ddamn. Post will be edited, and your contribution noted. OH MY G-D, I JUST REALIZED SOMETHING. The price stats for ships (and augmentations of them) are BROKEN for this purpose. Just take a certain ship, tack on a few modifications and what do you get? (Note: I fully expect no one to recognize this.] http://www.rpgfan.com/pics/eternal-arcadia/wall-05.jpg Come on, TELL me you played Skies of Arcadia. But seriously. A Greatship fully plated with Adamantine armor, three rotating-platform, firing-castle great bombards, and four light bombards per side only costs 1,300,000 GP -- which, compared to the 57,000,000 of a Vicstar, is a pittance. Since you're taking metal and putting things togeter with it, I'd assume that's Craft (Mechanical). Now, this means a total amount of 13,000,000. But wait a minute -- your check is about +1500, and you can increase the DC to +1000 voluntarily due to epic crafting. YOU CAN MAKE A GREATSHIP IN TEN WEEKS. EDIT: Did I say ten? I meant FOUR. According to the edits made in my OP, I've managed to increase GP per week to 367,105 -- one Greatship every four weeks. But how do you get it up in the air? Two words: cloud keel. Don't bother crafting these -- they take FOREVER.. Go buy one off a djinni or something. Repeat this for each airship you make. That's right, I said EACH. You're a powerful wizard, get control of a nation, or find some goblins, or something -- just find a lot of people you can take command of. (Maybe dismiss your cohort once you're done building, and get a new one with the three leadership feats and ten levels of Legendary Captain.) YOU ARE NOW ADMIRAL OF THE VALUAN NAVY. Oh, and nihility... you think YOU'RE gonna have fun? My campaign right now, my PCs are dimension-hopping with a ship... heading ot a galaxy far, far away... and have an extra helm of planeshift with them... Oh, and this is BEFORE Vader and the Execuor go down. Needless to say, something's gonna get a new helm...
Steidas 04-12-07, 12:33 AM	(lot of broken craft stuff) ... ok... you win.
SpoonyBard 04-12-07, 01:45 PM	Wait a second, that's using a level... 40 build, was it? Breaking a level 40 character happens all the time... I want to see a broken craft build WITHOUT going Epic and WITHOUT casting any spells. That's the point here.
jadehawk 04-12-07, 02:51 PM	There are already many ways of making a broken craft skill. Here's one: just get a character with a low strength and little to no ranks in it, and try to make masterwork full plate. There you have a broken full plate.
OravennasBrother 04-12-07, 05:45 PM	Wait a second, that's using a level... 40 build, was it?. I thought the question was what could be done with a +30 Skill check. Not a +1700 (or whatever)
SpoonyBard 04-12-07, 07:50 PM	I thought the question was what could be done with a +30 Skill check. Not a +1700 (or whatever) The real question is "why does Craft seem to suck in comparison to other skills?" The answer is "Because it's one of a few skills that can dirctly make you money, and it's the best of them."
ergot 04-13-07, 09:32 AM	This replacement system is not economically balanced in the slightest, but neither is the game itself, so I don't care about that. As these skills exist discretely: Craft (Armorsmithing) Craft (Blacksmithing) Craft (Leatherworking) Craft (Weaponsmithing) Craft (Woodworking) Profession (Miner) I will assume that it is a seperate task to do each of them and that an armorsmith not need concern himself with the smelting of bars or curing of leather, and that the construction cost for raw materials covers things like sheets/bars of metal, wooden hilts, and treated leather. I will define a skilled armorsmith as someone who can take 10s while making a suit of full plate. This requires a modifier of +13 (a second level dwarf expert with 5 ranks, masterwork tools, a 14 int, and an apprentice; a 3rd level 18 int human wizard with skill focus: craft: armorsmithing and 6 ranks). These estimates come from assorted discussions amongst blacksmiths using appropriate tools and methods. Given access to sheet metal and plans, a skilled armorsmith should be able to pound out a breastplate in a day. Given access to sheet meal and leather and plans, a skilled armorsmith should be able to punch out a suit of scale mail in a day. A skilled armorsmith can make a suit of finely detailed, engraved, fluted and bejewelled masterwork fit-for-a-king full plate in a year; or a suit of functional-if-boring full plate in about 2 months. If he only has bars, he will need to spend an hour per pound of the finished piece to pound the bars into sheets, or 2 (or more? need to talk to an SCA chap.) hours per pound to draw the bars into wire and turn the wire into links for chain mail. Good work for apprentices. Given these data points, I suggest that the formula for creation of metal armor be: check result * 10GP per day I don't think it makes any sense for the difficulty of the piece to make work go faster, and the "add 10 to the DC" makes for weird production quanta. If you fail by 1-4, you get nothing done; if you fail by 5+, you screw something up. Other fields should have a different multiplier. For example, a longsword should take a day to make. Therefore, I suggest the formula for creation of weapons be: check result * 1GP per day, + 2 hour per pound of bladed weapons to pound the bars into about the right shape and 'weave' the steel. Non-bladed weapons do not require this extra shaping. I haven't worked out the rules for masterwork pieces yet. I am fond of the flat time requirements for pounding bars. Thoughts? As a reminder, I do not care that these rules are potentially economically abusable. edit: here, how about this: Masterwork items shall require five times as much time to craft. There is more care involved; work progresses at 1/5th the normal rate. The DC to craft a masterwork item is double, but the total GP worth of work (or raw materials) required is not changed.
sooperspook 04-13-07, 10:11 PM	Not quite. I see no need to shackle one particular skill with the bonds of reason when halflings are dunking from mid-court and rangers are tracking a ghost's fart through the salt flats. AHAHAHHAHAHA!! *cough! *choke!...Ahem...:D On the topic, a house rule we implemented in my games is, A high enough skill check will allow you to craft basic magic items. Weapon/Armour smithing will let you craft +1 - +5 items, although you wouldn't be able to add any of the special abilities such as frost, keen, etc... Craft (Cooking ) will let you create the same effect as a Hero's Feast. Essentially a one shot magic item. Craft (Alchemy) will let you create actual magic potions. And so on. Note that the cost of creating all these uses the magic item rules. There is no XP cost, instead it is added back in as gp cost. Or time cost. Thats up to you. I also left out just how high the skill check should be because that would depend on someones campaign. Why I do it this way? Well , because of numerous stories I've read where "The Worlds Greatest Sword smith" creates a magic sword, without casting a single spell. Or "The worlds Greatest Jeweler" creates a magic ring, without waving his hands around , spouting gibberish and waving a dead chicken. And believe me, I've had meals so good they could only be described as magic. :cloud9: ( I definitely got a Morale bonus for a few hours after too!:w00t: )
Zyrusticae 04-13-07, 10:44 PM	This is something I really don't understand... Why is craft such a 'powerful' skill that it needs to be limited in such an absurd manner? I mean, realistically, you stilll have to *buy* the materials in order to actually make the stuff in the first place, on top of paying for the use of a forge, fuel, a stoke, a hammer, and anything else required for armor-smithing. Which means that it'll cost you ALOT to even start, before even considering the potential results. All this, frankly, adds up to make one really rather difficult and potentially un-profitable trade. That's not even considering the cost of getting rare materials like mithril and (gods forbid) adamantium. Personally, I think NWN 2 had a fairly decent craft system going. Ingots for strong metals were quite difficult to find - and usually quite expensive. Though crafting took up pretty much no time flat, you had a very discrete limit in the number of pieces you could create at any one time (due to the rarity of fine metal ingots). If materials are not automatically given to the player, I believe it's fair to cut the actual craft time to a fraction of what it is now. Oh, and DCs for making items from rare materials were actually reasonably high.
Nephlite 04-13-07, 10:59 PM	a +30 skill mod allows a Truenamer to use his ability a few times/day. :D (you need much higher to use it reliably though).
The Simple Seeker II 04-14-07, 08:54 AM	Love this...:love: appraise any exotic item with no chance of failure balance on a severely obstructed, severely slippery, sloped surface less than 2" wide easily bluff someone into believing something almost too incredible to consider climb an uneven surface with some narrow handholds and footholds at full base movement maintain concentration while grappling on the deck of a storm-tossed ship in driving sleet easily translate intricate, exotic, or very old writing shift someone from hostile to indifferent as a full-round action examine, and bypass without disarming, along with your cohorts, a symbol of pain disguise yourself as someone of a different gender, race, and age category well enough to fool somone who is intimately familiar with the subject escape from masterwork manacles without touching the dice i'm not even going to approach forgery, suffice it to say that you can totally own dudes. gather information on a specific subject without arousing suspicion raise a tyrannosaurus as your faithful pet easily treat any wound, poison, or disease hide while sniping and moving initimidate pretty much anyone dunk a basketball with a running start -- as a small creature with a 20' move recall 6 useful powers/vulnerabilities of a 5HD monster hear a cat stalking over the din of battle, through a door, while distracted sneak while running open an amazing lock sway an audience from hostile to indifferent with a performance earn 20g a week for practicing your profession stand on your mount's back during movement or combat with no penalties find a footprint on hard ground on a moonless night -- 2 weeks after the print was made easily sense enchantment lift a small object from a person as a free action easily understand a strange or unique magical effect read lips from 250' forage for food and water for 15 other people while moving at half your overland speed swim in storm water with no chance of failure tumble at full speed through a foe on a severly slippery surface activate just about any magic item bind someone such that they will need to make a DC 50 escape artist check or: craft an ordinary breastplate in just 2 weeks. Hooray for craft skills. Not bitter, honest.
Fallenangel359 04-14-07, 12:00 PM	my level 9 warblade has a concentration skill of 29, and does d20+29 damage every other round
WolfHati 04-14-07, 04:58 PM	initimidate pretty much anyone Sadly it takes a +65 intimidate modifier to be certain of intimidating a tarrasque. +30 ain't going to cut it.
Steidas 04-14-07, 11:30 PM	Sadly it takes a +65 intimidate modifier to be certain of intimidating a tarrasque. +30 ain't going to cut it. Level 20, means +23 ranks +30 = +53 +6 on Car, say it's a bard (a spoony bard), equals +59 It's a nice cut I may say.
ergot 04-15-07, 12:19 AM	Level 20, means +23 ranks +30 = +53 +6 on Car, say it's a bard (a spoony bard), equals +59 It's a nice cut I may say. Also, with the exception of the Tarrasque... 'pretty much anyone' is still valid.
ergot 04-17-07, 11:18 AM	here's the replacement rule we decided on: Craft (Int) Like Knowledge, Perform, and Profession, Craft is actually a number of separate skills. You could have several Craft skills, each with its own ranks, each purchased as a separate skill. A Craft skill is specifically focused on creating something. If nothing is created by the endeavor, it probably falls under the heading of a Profession skill. Check You can practice your trade and make a decent living, earning about half your check result in gold pieces per week of dedicated work. You know how to use the tools of your trade, how to perform the craft's daily tasks, how to supervise untrained helpers, and how to handle common problems. (Untrained laborers and assistants earn an average of 1 silver piece per day.) The basic function of the Craft skill, however, is to allow you to make an item of the appropriate type. The DC depends on the complexity of the item to be created. Your check results, the type of item you're creating, how fast you'd like to work, and the price of the item determine how long it takes to make a particular item. The item's finished price also determines the cost of raw materials. In some cases, the fabricate spell can be used to achieve the results of a Craft check with no actual check involved. However, you must make an appropriate Craft check when using the spell to make articles requiring a high degree of craftsmanship. A successful Craft check related to woodworking in conjunction with the casting of the ironwood spell enables you to make wooden items that have the strength of steel. When casting the spell minor creation, you must succeed on an appropriate Craft check to make a complex item. All crafts require artisan's tools to give the best chance of success. If improvised tools are used, the check is made with a -2 circumstance penalty. On the other hand, masterwork artisan's tools provide a +2 circumstance bonus on the check. To determine how much time and money it takes to make an item, follow these steps. 1. Find the item's price. 2. Find the DC and item constant from the table below. 3. Select a speed factor from the table below. 4. Pay one-third of the item's price for the cost of raw materials. 5. Make an appropriate Craft check representing one day's work. If the check succeeds, multiply your check result by the item constant and speed factor. If the result × the item constant × the speed factor equals the price of the item in gp, then you have completed the item. (If the result equals double or triple the price of the item in gold pieces, then you've completed the task in one-half or one-third of the time. Other multiples of the price reduce the time in the same manner.) If the result × the item constant × the speed factor doesn't equal the price, then it represents the progress you've made this day. Record the result and make a new Craft check for the next day. Each day, you make more progress until your total reaches the price of the item in silver pieces. Crafting Formula Work done = check result × item constant × speed factor If you fail a check by 4 or less, you make no progress this week. If you fail by 5 or more, you ruin half the raw materials and have to pay half the original raw material cost again. Progress by the Week You can make checks by the week instead of by the day. In this case your progress (check result × item constant × speed factor) is multiplied by 10. Creating Masterwork Items You can make a masterwork item -- a weapon, suit of armor, shield, or tool that conveys a bonus on its use through its exceptional craftsmanship, not through being magical. To create a masterwork item, select the 'Masterwork' speed factor from the table below. Repairing Items Generally, you can repair an item by making checks against the same DC that it took to make the item in the first place. The cost of repairing an item is one-fifth of the item's price. When you use the Craft skill to make a particular sort of item, the DC for checks involving the creation of that item are typically as given on the following table. Item Craft Skill Craft DC Acid Alchemy1 15 Alchemist's fire, smokestick, or tindertwig Alchemy1 20 Antitoxin, sunrod, tanglefoot bag, or thunderstone Alchemy1 25 Armor or shield Armorsmithing 10 + AC bonus Longbow or shortbow Bowmaking 12 Composite longbow or composite shortbow Bowmaking 15 Composite longbow or composite shortbow with high strength rating Bowmaking 15 + (2 × rating) Crossbow Weaponsmithing 15 Simple melee or thrown weapon Weaponsmithing 12 Martial melee or thrown weapon Weaponsmithing 15 Exotic melee or thrown weapon Weaponsmithing 18 Mechanical trap Trapmaking Varies2 Very simple item (wooden spoon) Varies 5 Typical item (iron pot) Varies 10 High-quality item (bell) Varies 15 Complex or superior item (lock) Varies 20 1. You must be a spellcaster to craft any of these items. 2. Traps have their own rules for construction. Type of Item Item Constant metal armor 10GP1 metal or hafted weapons 1GP1 traps 100GP2 1. Requires 1 hour per pound of armor or two hours for pound of bladed weapons for initial shaping. 2. Assuming that one kobold can dig 1 camouflaged pit trap in 1 day Speed Factor Considerations 1 Normal speed, no considerations 2 Rush job, 50% chance of failure1 .2 Masterwork item creation 1. As check failure; ruin 1/2 raw materials and have to pay half the original raw material cost again. This chance is in addition to the failure chance on the Craft check. Action Does not apply. Craft checks are made by the day or week (see above). Try Again Yes, but each time you miss by 5 or more, you ruin half the raw materials and have to pay half the original raw material cost again. Special A dwarf has a +2 racial bonus on Craft checks that are related to stone or metal, because dwarves are especially capable with stonework and metalwork. A gnome has a +2 racial bonus on Craft (alchemy) checks because gnomes have sensitive noses. To make an item using Craft (alchemy), you must have alchemical equipment and be a spellcaster. If you are working in a city, you can buy what you need as part of the raw materials cost to make the item, but alchemical equipment is difficult or impossible to come by in some places. Purchasing and maintaining an alchemist's lab grants a +2 circumstance bonus on Craft (alchemy) checks because you have the perfect tools for the job, but it does not affect the cost of any items made using the skill. Synergy If you have 5 ranks in a Craft skill, you get a +2 bonus on Appraise checks related to items made with that Craft skill.
liviajulia 04-17-07, 04:13 PM	One thing that people may have overlooked is that skills like Craft and Profession are useful outside of the potential for monetary gain - they are great roleplaying skills. Characters can with these skills (+30 or not) can use them to tell that a smith who claims to be making horseshoes is actually crafting evil rings of doom or something, or find a not-so-obvious flaw in the construction of a castle that could help them bring down the walls, or stuff like that. in one campaign that i was in, my character had 2 ranks in Profession (accountant) chosen originally as flavor in my backstory. At one point we encountered a bad guy who left behind a ledger filled with notes on how much he was charging his employer, so i asked "do his numbers add up?" By virtue of my profession skill, i was able to tell that the account book was nothing of the sort and we had an important clue to the rest of the adventure - our DM hadn't even remembered that i had those ranks, and i never really thought they would be specifically useful, but it was a really great way to employ a skill as an abstract problem solving tool, rather than a way to get my character more gold.