Throw a Wagon through an Arrow Slit! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Throw a Wagon through an Arrow Slit! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Werebat
09-09-07, 03:50 AM If a Hulking Hurler takes the Improved Precise Shot feat, can he then throw a wagon through an arrow slit to hit the guy firing from behind it?

I can't find anything in the rules that prevent this so I guess it would work. Crazy, huh?

- Ron ^*^
Salla
09-09-07, 03:52 AM And this is where this thing called 'common sense' comes into play. Or, in other words ...

http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa279/LolaBonne/cheez.jpg
Dog_O_War
09-09-07, 04:13 AM I can't find anything in the rules saying that I can't get wish as a spell-like ability from my crazy-rich uncle who is also a god (because that's what I wrote for a backstory) before the game starts, so I guess I get it. Craaazy huh?

Oh wait, there is something in the rules that says I don't; the part where it says the gamemaster has final say, and if he's worth a damn he'll say no.
R4za
09-09-07, 07:14 AM I can't find anything in the rules saying that I can't get wish as a spell-like ability from my crazy-rich uncle who is also a god (because that's what I wrote for a backstory) before the game starts, so I guess I get it. Craaazy huh?

Oh wait, there is something in the rules that says I don't; the part where it says the gamemaster has final say, and if he's worth a damn he'll say no.
If the rules specifically allow you to use ranged attacks through arrow slits, then you're comparing apples to oranges.

The "If the rules don't say you can't it doesn't mean you can" response is probably one of the most mis-used ones on this forum, being applied to things the rules allow actively you to do by generalisation when someone comes up with a non-obvious application.

Of course, letting you throw wagons through arrow slits still makes no sense, it just isn't for the reason quoted above.
EjoThims
09-09-07, 07:19 AM Don't arrow slits provide full cover for the archer behind them?
war_thog
09-09-07, 08:18 AM Improved precise shot allows you ignore bonuses to cover and such.

Not let fit something large through a small hole.
They dont get the bonus against the pieces of shrapnel that flies through as the wagon explodes.
The wagon itself isnt really getting through as it has shattered to tiny pieces.

So in a way you can.
Provided you are comfortable with putting your wagon back together on the other side.
EjoThims
09-09-07, 08:21 AM The point is, if an arrow slit allows total cover instead of just cover, you can't make ranged attacks against the archer anyway.

If it's only cover, then, tehcnically, yes, youc an attack them with it, unless of course arrow slits have a specific note about oversized projectiles.
war_thog
09-09-07, 08:22 AM arrow slits wont specifically. But fitting a large object though a 15cm wide space does.
Khadmus
09-09-07, 08:24 AM Improved precise shot allows you ignore bonuses to cover and such.

Not let fit something large through a small hole.
They dont get the bonus against the pieces of shrapnel that flies through as the wagon explodes.
The wagon itself isnt really getting through as it has shattered to tiny pieces.

So in a way you can.
Provided you are comfortable with putting your wagon back together on the other side.

Interesting solution....

This is one of the areas where the rules mess up. A tower shield technically provides full cover from all directions, a wagon can fit through an arrow slit...
DM fiat comes heavily into play.
war_thog
09-09-07, 08:39 AM Meh I dont think the rules mess up here.
The guy doesnt get the AC bonus.
Doest mean you can fit big things through holes. Has nothing to do with it.
If you can somehow get it through *maybe shrink the wagon....... still a wagon!* then go for it! :)

I think a far more possible occurrence which is where the rules really fall flat is this.

Improved precise shot lets you always hit the right person in a grapple.

Throw your wagon at a grapple and only hit the bad guy.

Now thats ridiculous but completely possible. *not like the impossibility of fitting large things through small holes*
Werebat
09-09-07, 02:01 PM Interesting solution....

This is one of the areas where the rules mess up. A tower shield technically provides full cover from all directions, a wagon can fit through an arrow slit...
DM fiat comes heavily into play.

It's an interesting solution but it breaks down completely if you set up a 100' long, 5' wide corridor partitioned off into 5'X5' sections separated by walls with arrow slits all pointing in the same direction, all occupied by humans with bows. Then you get a cloud giant with 3 wizard levels and Monkey Grip to cast Whirling Blade and throw his gargantuan greatsword through all of the arrow slits, one after the other...

- Ron ^*^
Dog_O_War
09-09-07, 02:19 PM The point is, if an arrow slit allows total cover instead of just cover, you can't make ranged attacks against the archer anyway.

If it's only cover, then, tehcnically, yes, youc an attack them with it, unless of course arrow slits have a specific note about oversized projectiles.
Arrow slits do not give you full cover. Full cover by definition is when you are covered fully and thus you would not be able to attack as well. Otherwise I would invest in a section of wooden wall with an arrow slit in it, and two mercencaries to carry it around in front of me.

It only gives an enhanced version of cover (don't remember how much).
KedynCrow
09-09-07, 02:46 PM This is absolutely insane. Firstly, we can all agree that Hulking Hurler is up there with PWNSJOONOOBS of Silverymoon as one of the most broken PrCs in this lovely game. Secondly, we can all attest that Arrow slits are small ( a good deal smaller than 15 cms in most cases) while Wagons are not (more than 5 meters in most cases). Thirdly, just to state the mathematically obvious 15 cm =/= 5 m. Not by a long shot.

Herein we can conclude, if that archer is going to be hit through that arrow slit, it will only be an innefectual (for the most part) pelting of broken wood and perhaps a bit of twisted metal. We can resolve this with the rules for grenade-like weapons...if we MUST.
EjoThims
09-09-07, 03:12 PM Arrow slits do not give you full cover.

Alright. I didn't bother looking up the rules for arrow slits myself, but it's not unreasonable to conclude part of their use would convey full cover to the archer while still allowing attacks out.
Werebat
09-09-07, 04:19 PM This is absolutely insane. Firstly, we can all agree that Hulking Hurler is up there with PWNSJOONOOBS of Silverymoon as one of the most broken PrCs in this lovely game. Secondly, we can all attest that Arrow slits are small ( a good deal smaller than 15 cms in most cases) while Wagons are not (more than 5 meters in most cases). Thirdly, just to state the mathematically obvious 15 cm =/= 5 m. Not by a long shot.

Herein we can conclude, if that archer is going to be hit through that arrow slit, it will only be an innefectual (for the most part) pelting of broken wood and perhaps a bit of twisted metal. We can resolve this with the rules for grenade-like weapons...if we MUST.

Look at my Whirling Blade example above. You don't need to be a hulking hurler for this nonsense to be allowed, RAW.

IMC there is a halfling master thrower with IPS who often kills enemies protected behind arrow slits because the arrow slits do NOTHING to protect them from her attacks (throw daggers). Nothing at all.

- Ron ^*^
war_thog
09-09-07, 08:36 PM Thats because daggers can fit.

Your huge sword will not.
The arrow slits still protect them. Just your halfling thrower is good enough to hit them while they lean out to shoot. A dagger can fit through the gap.

Massive items cant.

I still think hitting only one grappling character with said wagon is more ridiculous as it is "more arguably possible". No less ridiculous though.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Werebat 09-09-07, 03:50 AM	If a Hulking Hurler takes the Improved Precise Shot feat, can he then throw a wagon through an arrow slit to hit the guy firing from behind it? I can't find anything in the rules that prevent this so I guess it would work. Crazy, huh? - Ron ^*^
Salla 09-09-07, 03:52 AM	And this is where this thing called 'common sense' comes into play. Or, in other words ... http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa279/LolaBonne/cheez.jpg
Dog_O_War 09-09-07, 04:13 AM	I can't find anything in the rules saying that I can't get wish as a spell-like ability from my crazy-rich uncle who is also a god (because that's what I wrote for a backstory) before the game starts, so I guess I get it. Craaazy huh? Oh wait, there is something in the rules that says I don't; the part where it says the gamemaster has final say, and if he's worth a damn he'll say no.
R4za 09-09-07, 07:14 AM	I can't find anything in the rules saying that I can't get wish as a spell-like ability from my crazy-rich uncle who is also a god (because that's what I wrote for a backstory) before the game starts, so I guess I get it. Craaazy huh? Oh wait, there is something in the rules that says I don't; the part where it says the gamemaster has final say, and if he's worth a damn he'll say no. If the rules specifically allow you to use ranged attacks through arrow slits, then you're comparing apples to oranges. The "If the rules don't say you can't it doesn't mean you can" response is probably one of the most mis-used ones on this forum, being applied to things the rules allow actively you to do by generalisation when someone comes up with a non-obvious application. Of course, letting you throw wagons through arrow slits still makes no sense, it just isn't for the reason quoted above.
EjoThims 09-09-07, 07:19 AM	Don't arrow slits provide full cover for the archer behind them?
war_thog 09-09-07, 08:18 AM	Improved precise shot allows you ignore bonuses to cover and such. Not let fit something large through a small hole. They dont get the bonus against the pieces of shrapnel that flies through as the wagon explodes. The wagon itself isnt really getting through as it has shattered to tiny pieces. So in a way you can. Provided you are comfortable with putting your wagon back together on the other side.
EjoThims 09-09-07, 08:21 AM	The point is, if an arrow slit allows total cover instead of just cover, you can't make ranged attacks against the archer anyway. If it's only cover, then, tehcnically, yes, youc an attack them with it, unless of course arrow slits have a specific note about oversized projectiles.
war_thog 09-09-07, 08:22 AM	arrow slits wont specifically. But fitting a large object though a 15cm wide space does.
Khadmus 09-09-07, 08:24 AM	Improved precise shot allows you ignore bonuses to cover and such. Not let fit something large through a small hole. They dont get the bonus against the pieces of shrapnel that flies through as the wagon explodes. The wagon itself isnt really getting through as it has shattered to tiny pieces. So in a way you can. Provided you are comfortable with putting your wagon back together on the other side. Interesting solution.... This is one of the areas where the rules mess up. A tower shield technically provides full cover from all directions, a wagon can fit through an arrow slit... DM fiat comes heavily into play.
war_thog 09-09-07, 08:39 AM	Meh I dont think the rules mess up here. The guy doesnt get the AC bonus. Doest mean you can fit big things through holes. Has nothing to do with it. If you can somehow get it through maybe shrink the wagon....... still a wagon! then go for it! :) I think a far more possible occurrence which is where the rules really fall flat is this. Improved precise shot lets you always hit the right person in a grapple. Throw your wagon at a grapple and only hit the bad guy. Now thats ridiculous but completely possible. not like the impossibility of fitting large things through small holes
Werebat 09-09-07, 02:01 PM	Interesting solution.... This is one of the areas where the rules mess up. A tower shield technically provides full cover from all directions, a wagon can fit through an arrow slit... DM fiat comes heavily into play. It's an interesting solution but it breaks down completely if you set up a 100' long, 5' wide corridor partitioned off into 5'X5' sections separated by walls with arrow slits all pointing in the same direction, all occupied by humans with bows. Then you get a cloud giant with 3 wizard levels and Monkey Grip to cast Whirling Blade and throw his gargantuan greatsword through all of the arrow slits, one after the other... - Ron ^*^
Dog_O_War 09-09-07, 02:19 PM	The point is, if an arrow slit allows total cover instead of just cover, you can't make ranged attacks against the archer anyway. If it's only cover, then, tehcnically, yes, youc an attack them with it, unless of course arrow slits have a specific note about oversized projectiles. Arrow slits do not give you full cover. Full cover by definition is when you are covered fully and thus you would not be able to attack as well. Otherwise I would invest in a section of wooden wall with an arrow slit in it, and two mercencaries to carry it around in front of me. It only gives an enhanced version of cover (don't remember how much).
KedynCrow 09-09-07, 02:46 PM	This is absolutely insane. Firstly, we can all agree that Hulking Hurler is up there with PWNSJOONOOBS of Silverymoon as one of the most broken PrCs in this lovely game. Secondly, we can all attest that Arrow slits are small ( a good deal smaller than 15 cms in most cases) while Wagons are not (more than 5 meters in most cases). Thirdly, just to state the mathematically obvious 15 cm =/= 5 m. Not by a long shot. Herein we can conclude, if that archer is going to be hit through that arrow slit, it will only be an innefectual (for the most part) pelting of broken wood and perhaps a bit of twisted metal. We can resolve this with the rules for grenade-like weapons...if we MUST.
EjoThims 09-09-07, 03:12 PM	Arrow slits do not give you full cover. Alright. I didn't bother looking up the rules for arrow slits myself, but it's not unreasonable to conclude part of their use would convey full cover to the archer while still allowing attacks out.
Werebat 09-09-07, 04:19 PM	This is absolutely insane. Firstly, we can all agree that Hulking Hurler is up there with PWNSJOONOOBS of Silverymoon as one of the most broken PrCs in this lovely game. Secondly, we can all attest that Arrow slits are small ( a good deal smaller than 15 cms in most cases) while Wagons are not (more than 5 meters in most cases). Thirdly, just to state the mathematically obvious 15 cm =/= 5 m. Not by a long shot. Herein we can conclude, if that archer is going to be hit through that arrow slit, it will only be an innefectual (for the most part) pelting of broken wood and perhaps a bit of twisted metal. We can resolve this with the rules for grenade-like weapons...if we MUST. Look at my Whirling Blade example above. You don't need to be a hulking hurler for this nonsense to be allowed, RAW. IMC there is a halfling master thrower with IPS who often kills enemies protected behind arrow slits because the arrow slits do NOTHING to protect them from her attacks (throw daggers). Nothing at all. - Ron ^*^
war_thog 09-09-07, 08:36 PM	Thats because daggers can fit. Your huge sword will not. The arrow slits still protect them. Just your halfling thrower is good enough to hit them while they lean out to shoot. A dagger can fit through the gap. Massive items cant. I still think hitting only one grappling character with said wagon is more ridiculous as it is "more arguably possible". No less ridiculous though.