Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gemstone 01-16-07, 05:48 PM	One of my players have made a dwarf that focuses clearly on Constitution and hp, as well as fortitude saves. Right now, he has an insane fortitude save and he's been looking at a feat to increase his Will save... First of all, it feels kinda like an insane feat. Both allowing you to use your con bonus to your Will save, but also negates natural 1's on fortitude saves. Just using Con for will saves is worth a single feat IMO... What are your oppinions on this? My reasoning is that this feat virtually makes some characters immune to all but the highest abilities that require Fortitude saves. Among them, poisons, spells and other such things.
ShinAkuma2 01-16-07, 06:12 PM	Ok, so he's using a feat that's making something he's really good at even better...This is a problem? If his only trick is lots of HP and a high Fort save, there's plenty you can do otherwise. How's his Reflex save? A simple Web spell will likely keep him still while you Lightning Bolt him to death. Even with his Con to Will saves, I'd bet they're still not spectacular. A Hold Person takes him out of the fight. Being immune to poisons isn't all that special. Druids, Paladins, and Monks can all get it, and Dwarves are already tough to poison as is. As it stands, not failing on a one is only slightly more powerful than rerolling a save once per day, of which there are plenty of feats/abilities/magic items to use. I don't see it as an overpowering feat. Can you give a more specific example of what he might do with it that makes it so strong?
Gemstone 01-16-07, 06:15 PM	Ok, so he's using a feat that's making something he's really good at even better...This is a problem? If his only trick is lots of HP and a high Fort save, there's plenty you can do otherwise. How's his Reflex save? A simple Web spell will likely keep him still while you Lightning Bolt him to death. Even with his Con to Will saves, I'd bet they're still not spectacular. A Hold Person takes him out of the fight. Being immune to poisons isn't all that special. Druids, Paladins, and Monks can all get it, and Dwarves are already tough to poison as is. As it stands, not failing on a one is only slightly more powerful than rerolling a save once per day, of which there are plenty of feats/abilities/magic items to use. I don't see it as an overpowering feat. Can you give a more specific example of what he might do with it that makes it so strong? Actually, it's not just poison. It's every single fortitude effect out there that he become basicly immune too ;) the part that makes his con go to will is pretty much okay, but not failing on a natural 1 is what disturbs me. those two togheter is pretty much what makes the feat a bit over the limit IMO. A Hold person = will save, which he will have a pretty good will save against. Will save spells will be fail at him quite often, the only thing he will be vulnerable to is Reflex save. His character is okay, but it's the feat that I'm thinking is over the top
Cifer 01-16-07, 06:34 PM	but not failing on a natural 1 is what disturbs me. Why? It's something that comes up once in twenty spells - twenty extremely low-level spells cast by bad casters, that is. Is it that terrible that he can no longer fail his save against the mighty chill touch?
Kullak-Kobold Sorcerer 01-16-07, 06:35 PM	This assumes that spells are not overpowered. Versus a straight melee/ranged combat encounter, this feat doesn't help much. It would help against dragons at all. I think yuor player did his best to take a feat to overcome the most unbalanced system in the game: spells. He is stuck with a feat that you do not have to engage his character with, or use sparingly. He is still vulnerable to grapples, traps (non-will based magic or fort based of course), attacks, sundering, disarm, theft, etc. I wouldn't worry about it. Actually, it is more balanced than most feats are. Most are underpowered rather than overpowered for non-spellcasters.
Kullak-Kobold Sorcerer 01-16-07, 06:38 PM	Why? It's something that comes up once in twenty spells - twenty extremely low-level spells cast by bad casters, that is. Is it that terrible that he can no longer fail his save against the mighty chill touch? Don't forget, he still fails if he rolls a 2. This special effect only happens 5% of the time. At least Blind fighting works to give you a 50% chance of removing a 50% chance of failure (25%of success) rather than losing a 5% chance, 100% of the time (a 5% success rate effectively).
Neutronium_Dragon 01-16-07, 07:49 PM	He can still fail on a 1, too. The feat prevents auto-failure, but it doesn't prevent a 1 from being a normal failure.
ShinAkuma2 01-16-07, 10:44 PM	Actually, it's not just poison. It's every single fortitude effect out there that he become basicly immune too ;) Well, you specifically called out Poison as something to which he's immune. It's just not all that special. What sort of classes does he have? I'm thinking some sort of Fighter/Barbarian type, so correct me if I'm wrong, but even using Con instead of Wis wouldn't make up for the low base save on Will saves. If he's a 14th level Fighter, with a 26 Con (just to throw out numbers), that's +13. Against a 7th lvl spell from a caster with 26 Int (just to keep it level appropriate and even), he saves less than half the time. If your BBEG NPC Wizards are higher in level than the Fighter, that number drops. If he's multiclassed in poor Will classes (Ftr/Barb is common enough), it drops even further. All he's done is taken a horrible weakness and made it less weak, which is just him being smart.
Mitchell 01-16-07, 11:52 PM	Is it better than Iron will? Sure it is. Is Iron will a very good feat? Not really. It's sort of like improved toughness vs. toughness. Yes, there is that element of power creep, but that seems to be the way of things these days. Maybe you can find a compromise. What if iron will had to be taken as a prerequisite?
Grug the Just 01-17-07, 12:25 AM	It's only seemingly worrisome because of how focused the character is. Staggeringly great things can be accomplished with one feat or ability stacked on another. This feat would be fine if it were a weak-con'd elven wizard. However, since it's a tough, and stout dwarven barbarian a problem arises. I've had similar issues where it was not the feat but the character who used it. **cough**power attack**cough**
SageBahamut 01-17-07, 12:38 AM	That, as has been said, is just playing to his strengths. That weak-CON elven wizard would probably have no use for a feat to add his CON to Will saves. Not only is his Wis probably better, but his Con is likely nil or even negative! It's not a problem, it's just him being smart. And, like has also been said, how often will it really matter? He's not being effected by things he shouldn't be effected by anyway. (DC 12 poison, he has a +35 save vs poison, rolls a 1 and is poisoned even though that nat 1 is still triple the DC. :nonono:) Woohoo.
Gemstone 01-17-07, 02:03 AM	well, the risk for auto-failure has always been a sort of "hang on, there's still a chance that I can fail this". But you've convinced me that the feat is balanced :) I can't remember exactly, but his fortitude save is somewere over +15, and that was at level 6 or 7, without feats to improve it.
CroupandVandemar 01-17-07, 02:10 AM	You are the DM, you have the power to veto; but, remember that players want to be strong (that is what is sooooo fun about being a player), never deny them the chance to accomplish that just because you think it will ruin one tiny aspect. Sadly, that feat does almost make iron will useless. R.I.P. Iron Will we will always remember you
StruckingFuggle 01-17-07, 03:24 AM	On the other hand, Iron Will doesn't require you to take Endurance, so if you're not a fighter (say, if you're a Barbarian, or even a Frenzied Berserker, who's already probably down four feats as it is...), it's cheaper.
TheCobra 01-17-07, 10:31 AM	Is it better than Iron will? Sure it is. Is Iron will a very good feat? Not really. It's sort of like improved toughness vs. toughness. Yes, there is that element of power creep, but that seems to be the way of things these days. Iron Will is a lot better than Toughness, except perhaps at level 1. But I think Steadfast Determination is a great feat for a fighters and such. And they need all the help they can get.
Gemstone 01-17-07, 10:31 AM	You are the DM, you have the power to veto; but, remember that players want to be strong (that is what is sooooo fun about being a player), never deny them the chance to accomplish that just because you think it will ruin one tiny aspect. Sadly, that feat does almost make iron will useless. R.I.P. Iron Will we will always remember you wouldn't have been a problem if he weren't the only powergamer in the group, which he is :(
TheCobra 01-17-07, 03:56 PM	It doesn't make Iron Will useless at all. Steadfast Determination requires Endurance. And you got to have CON>WIS+1 to match Iron Will.
Sleepwalker13666 01-17-07, 04:14 PM	I made up a couple of feats for my game which added to saving throws, sadly no one has used them :weep: Fortifying Strength (General) Prerequisite: Str 15+, Con 13+ Benefit: You add your strength modifer to your fortitude saves, in addition to your constitution modifer. Reflexive Instinct (General) Prerequisite: Int 15+, Dex 13+ Benefit: You add your intelligence modifier to Reflex saves, in addition to your dexderity modifier. Strength of Will (General) Prerequisite: Cha 15+, Wis 13+ Benefit: You add your charisma modifer to your will save, in addition to your wisdom modifer. Unyeilding Stance (General) Prerequisite: Fortifying Strength, Great Fortitude, Base Fort Save +4 Benefit: You may make a fortitude save in place of a reflex save.
Mitchell 01-17-07, 09:40 PM	Iron Will is a lot better than Toughness, except perhaps at level 1. But I think Steadfast Determination is a great feat for a fighters and such. And they need all the help they can get. I never compared Iron will to toughness... :confused:
bashman 03-07-07, 08:21 PM	I made up a couple of feats for my game which added to saving throws, sadly no one has used them :weep: Fortifying Strength (General) Prerequisite: Str 15+, Con 13+ Benefit: You add your strength modifer to your fortitude saves, in addition to your constitution modifer. Reflexive Instinct (General) Prerequisite: Int 15+, Dex 13+ Benefit: You add your intelligence modifier to Reflex saves, in addition to your dexderity modifier. Strength of Will (General) Prerequisite: Cha 15+, Wis 13+ Benefit: You add your charisma modifer to your will save, in addition to your wisdom modifer. Unyeilding Stance (General) Prerequisite: Fortifying Strength, Great Fortitude, Base Fort Save +4 Benefit: You may make a fortitude save in place of a reflex save. Hey, I think those are pretty cool! I'd definately take them. The using your CHA instead of WIS would definately make more sense than using your CON instead of WIS. Having it be that you get to add it is a nice touch, as saving throw feats tend to such in RAW (until ph2)...
paladin2019 03-07-07, 08:52 PM	My problem with this feat was the removal of the auto-fail on a 1. As I said in another post quite recently, I'll take this one, and the one for Reflex saves and the one for Will saves and the one for melee attacks, and the one for ranged attacks, too. Now I can no longer auto-fail. I am invincible! (cue shattering of 500 gallon tanks of liquid nitrogen behind me.)
primemover003 03-07-07, 09:03 PM	I had a Were-tiger ranger/warshaper in one of my past campaigns and I thought Steadfast Determination was too good at first as well, but it simply made him better at what he already was (with the Lycanthrope template's con boost AND the Warshapers boost). However the fact that you can still fail against incredibly High DC's remains key. Against Spells and the like it's not likely to happen as they rarely see the high 20's except at 15+ level. It's when you use the incredibly cheap CR monsters that have HUGE HD that you can get silly! I mean a Colassal Scorpion's Posion DC is 33 at CR 12!!! A Dwarven Bbn built for Con with steadfast determination at 12th is likely to have a Fort save of +23 (+8 base, +10 Con 31 while raging with con boost item +4,+2 racial, +3 resist). That means he has to roll 10 or above. More than likely he's the only party memeber that'll make the save short of a Nat 20!!! That's still a 45% chance he'll fail. One failure and that's 1d10 Con damage which'll lower his subsequent saves.