Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Razorstorm 11-01-07, 08:14 PM	Hey guys, a question about bardic music. I've always just assumed youwould use singing, since you can fight while you do it. Having another perform skill just seemed a waste of points. Is there a good reason to use an instrument? I know there are Mwk bonuses, but those only matter on opposed rolls, like Fascinate, which is already not combative. Is there something I'm missing? Do people actually play instruments in combat? Razorstorm
Ananvilhurtz 11-02-07, 09:34 AM	You receive a bonus to various aspects of bard song by using an instrument. I think its detailed in Complete Adventurer. Its something like Drums give an additional +1 Dmg, a fiddle gives +1 Saves VS Fear, or something. (Those two are just ad hoc, if they're accurate its by chance.)
foxtail 11-02-07, 10:53 AM	The Complete Adventurer rules are optional, I think, but if you want to tweak your music effects, they're the way to go. Also, using an instrument leaves your voice free for other things - unless a rule I'm forgetting somehow nerfs it, I'd assume that includes verbal-only spells. Same with other effects that require you to be heard; a bard/marshall with a violin could inspire courage and use a commander aura at the same time. Also, if you don't want to waste points on a second Perform skill, consider the Versatile Performer feat instead. It allows you to keep one or more extra Perform skills on par with your highest level one as long as you have at least one point in each.
Vharuck 11-02-07, 11:04 AM	Since amazing surgical techniques don't really exist in D&D, there's no such thing as a masterwork instrument for Perform (singing).
j3st3r 11-03-07, 06:37 AM	Some races have bonuses with certain instruments (e.g. fauns get several benefits while using pipes or flutes). There are several magical instruments that grant spells or other powers to the user.
dengarbountyhunter 11-03-07, 02:03 PM	An instrument is TROUBLESOME. You need to carry it. You need to hold it (most often with both hands) to use it. You need to sheathe/unsheathe it before/after using it (except if you don't mind dropping it, you heartless bastard). It can be sundered or disarmed. If your DM is picky, you might even have to tune it (once per day, maybe). The only advantage of Perform (_____ instrument) above Perform (Sing), Perform (Oratory), Perform (Poetry) or Perform (Whistle)* is the fact that you can have a masterwork/magical instrument. *Perform (Whistle), while not in the PHB, exists and there is even a Prestige Class based on that skill somewhere on the WoTC website.
Hsien 11-03-07, 03:41 PM	The Halfling Whistler was converted with a few others from 2nd Ed Bards Handbook, iirc I still miss my 2nd Ed Riddlemaster Bard/Mage had...Perform ( Jokes )
Arco Versipellis 11-04-07, 12:27 AM	I always play an instrumentalist bard, since I am a musician. As such, I always have to deal with the limiting factors of that come along with it. Versatile Performer is the best way to do it. A lot of my bard builds start with extra music at level one and versatile performer at level three. That's two feats, but I'm devoted. Just to note, as a string bass player, I like for my bard to be able to do so as well. As such, I have to take consideration that I can barely get mine around in a 98 Mazda Protege, much less hauling one around a mountain pass. Summon Instrument is a great solution to expandable instruments or hauling large instrument. Unfortuately, that requires an entire round. Also, while it takes two hands to play an instrument, it doesn't take two to hold most any instrument. Thus, you can pull out an instrument (free action) and play and on the next round pull out a one-handed weapon and attack (or cast a spell) while holding the instrument. Even something as large at the aforementioned string bass is incredibly light. I can lift it with one hand and walk around with ease. While the bass isn't combat viable, a fiddle should have little effect on combat prowess. Also, mending is a good spell for repairing instruments. You could protect it magically as well. All of that aside, there is no practical benefiet to playing an instrument, except it makes you cool.
tyrecian 11-04-07, 09:06 PM	I played with a Radiant Servant of Pelor once who was one of these insane Comp Divine/Comp Arcane feat masters who was just a powerhouse. Anyways, he took leadership feat and had some first and second level followers. They each took feats of Skill Focus in each (using elite array) different knowledge skill (each human for an extra feat) and in a different instrument. Then he always had high knowledge checks and a band. He was able to have his band play every day and take 10 on perform checks anywhere they went. As we got higher and they did too, he was able to have them gain notoriety everywhere we went. They were rock stars, of an evangelical sort, but he would heal people on off days, (and i would make items that he could cast into :)) so they were not an unpopular rock band at all, by any means. He became a truly powerful character for the party in fact, and it was tough to do anything without people recognizing him guard: "noone enters here... hey wait, OMG you are [name] from [band name] wow! i saw you guys last week, you ROCK, sure go on in!" Tip ensues, "**** Yeah!" is heard from guards, hehe
'G' 11-04-07, 09:29 PM	I have to take this argument to heart, seeing as Bard was my favorite class from 2nd edition, and I am now only making my way back to it in 3.5. The argument for instruments can be made many ways, but one of my favorites is that you will never heard of an enchated bull horn that needs a skill prerequiste to use(if there is one please send me a message I want it), but there are many magical instruments that require a perform string or wind skill minimum to fully utilize. As for being able to use it during combat, cary a shield on your left hand and then guard your instrument behind the shiled while fighting with your right hand. I personally use a hand harp, and cary a light shield in the shape of my harp. If you are thinking about a Bard PRC, quite a few require a moderate perform skill in an instrument. Thoughts I have against istruments have already been identified in previous posts in this thread. The feat to take, no matter what kind of performer, however is Melodic Caster from the complete mage, which allows you to cast while continuing a music effect and/or take a perform check instead of a concentration check to maintain concentration while casting. Best Bard Feat Ever. Sandals of Battle Dancing one of the arguably best melee combat oriented perform check based magic item requires a minimum perform dance skill, but allows you to use your charisma instead of your str in melee combat. Perform checks such as dance can be used even if you are forced to be silent, and percusion although it must be heard could be used quite sneakily, by say rhythmically tapping your foot or finger or some such, (say if you were bound and gagged). Oration and acting are the ones I think of as underpowered, I mean they should at least have a synergy with bluff, and diplomacy, but it doesn't. However you could use oration very sneakily to fascinate some one while simply speaking to them. So in the end it is all about the flavor, If you have a high Int for some unknown reason, burn a Feat and take Versatile Performer and then get bonus perform skills in different types of performance skills based on your int bonus equal to your highest single perform based skill. But that is only if you wan't a whole lot of xtra special sauce (jus fo da flava)
'G' 11-04-07, 09:42 PM	It should also be noted tht Inspire Courage can only be done using a verbal perform skill (though this is debatable to me) such as Singing, oration, or poetics. (the most usefull of early bardic music abilties) I only recently realized this when planning to inspire an army using a Bagpipe, at which point the idea was shot down by the DM, so I went William Wallace on him and orated to the milling masses of 1st and 2nd level warriors on shooting ligthning from my arse giving them all a +2 to hit damage, and immunity to fear effects. May not seem like much but it literally doubled their effectiveness in combat. Of coarse I was still upset aboout the bagpipes, seeing as I could have played them through the battle and they would have been heard by far more then the few hundred I could inspire with oration from horse back.
Dog_O_War 11-04-07, 10:08 PM	I dunno, I'd probably take singing. With a fiddle, you'll be dueling devils all the time...
Rulebook 11-05-07, 03:58 PM	man you laugh at that, but i was in a competition where one of the challenges was score a higher perform check than the demon, or auto-fail your save against his death effect. us sorry bastards, having min/maxed out for the combat portions were wiped out to a man, except me, who took like 5 ranks, and rolled well (and the demon rolled poorly)
Fend 11-06-07, 01:41 PM	As stated before its all about intromental bonus's and ability to use magical instroments. But also because you can combine various instroments and vocals into a powerful Duet / organised peice of combined bardic music checks. 2 Bards singing different songs will cancel eachother out. But 2 bards, one playing percussion - the other playing a guitar - can inspire different things while sounding good together. well atleast in my eyes anyway.
Arco Versipellis 11-06-07, 10:21 PM	I would never rule that two voices couldn't sing together to combine bardic music effects, or that two of the same instrument couldn't either for that matter. There are four part choirs and guitar trios abound.
Gwydian 11-07-07, 04:16 AM	I just played a level 4 bard/level 1 psion synad race.... But here's the cool part, I gave him profession preecher and perform "orate." Now, it was for a halloween game, so instead of singing he recited passages from his holy books to inspire his comrades.... I felt this particular use of the perform skill meshed extremely well with the creepy setting of the game we were playing. Plus, the preacher bard is a variant rarely seen, but very cool considering his spells and all. My preacher was a preacher of "the light" and as a psion had the control light power. Which would have made for a very cool enemy should he have become a vampire or something.