Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Darth Krieg 04-17-07, 01:12 PM	looking at maneuvers and was wondering how cool it would be if Girallon windmill flesh rip and time stand still could be used together. cause Gwfr only requires a swift action to initiate and Tss requires a full round action, i don't see why you couldn't use both in conjunction. a swift action is pretty much a free action except you only get one per turn. so double checking, would this very wrong and devastating combo be legal?
Egres 04-17-07, 01:28 PM	looking at maneuvers and was wondering how cool it would be if Girallon windmill flesh rip and time stand still could be used together. cause Gwfr only requires a swift action to initiate and Tss requires a full round action, i don't see why you couldn't use both in conjunction. a swift action is pretty much a free action except you only get one per turn. so double checking, would this very wrong and devastating combo be legal? Yep.
Tempest Stormwind 04-17-07, 01:49 PM	looking at maneuvers and was wondering how cool it would be if Girallon windmill flesh rip and time stand still could be used together. cause Gwfr only requires a swift action to initiate and Tss requires a full round action, i don't see why you couldn't use both in conjunction. a swift action is pretty much a free action except you only get one per turn. so double checking, would this very wrong and devastating combo be legal? This is entirely legal and isn't anywhere near as deadly as you think. First, it's open to warblades and swordsages, but to do so requires (I think) four Diamond Mind maneuvers, three Tiger Claw manevuers, both of these, and as high an attack bonus as you can get (meaning warblade of the two -- but note that this costs nine of the thirteen maneuvers you'll ever know). Second, it can only be done once per combat unless you recover both maneuvers. The best you can do with this is every other round, and that assumes your target isn't moving. Third, it gets weaker against anything but a single opponent. Fourth, the only reason you think it looks strong is because 20d6 is a big number. It is... but it isn't out of people's hands. At level 17 (the level you can do this at), wizards have been dealing 20d6 for quite a few levels now (at least six levels, since level 11 is when Disintegrate (with its 22d6) shows up... and that spell now deals 34d6 damage for them WITHOUT metamagic), and they just got spells like Meteor Swarm (if you're looking for damage) which deals 24d6. They can also do those every round. It's legal, but really not all that hot. It's just been out of the hands of warrior-types without serious optimization until recently.
Barloch 04-17-07, 01:55 PM	I think technically since time stand still lets you take 2 rounds worth of actions you seperate those rounds actions, so your garillion ouch hurt ability is only active for the "round" you initiate it in, I could be wrong though I don't remember the exact wording on time stand stills and I dont' feel like checking.
Tempest Stormwind 04-17-07, 02:05 PM	I think technically since time stand still lets you take 2 rounds worth of actions you seperate those rounds actions, so your garillion ouch hurt ability is only active for the "round" you initiate it in, I could be wrong though I don't remember the exact wording on time stand stills and I dont' feel like checking. No, it doesn't. Please reread the strike. It's a single full-round action. During that full-round action, you take two full attacks. It's still the same round. That bold part disturbs me more than anything else at the moment. If you didn't feel like confirming the facts, then why post as if you were making a factual statement? (I'm not trying to be harsh and apologize if I'm coming across as such; I'm actually curious.)
IonizedChicken 04-17-07, 02:12 PM	Time Stands Still just allows you to take two full attack actions in a row. It doesn't somehow turn 1 round into 2. But I agree with Stormwind; the combination is not all that great compared to what Wizards can do at that level. In fact, it's a little pathetic compared to that. And you know, it's not even that ideal. Raging Mongoose + Time Stands Still + Stormguard Warrior will probably yield better results. I mean, what's 20d6 points of damage anyway? 70? with Stormguard Warrior you can do 40 or so per attack
Darth Krieg 04-17-07, 03:13 PM	well i'm just saying it looks cool to do. I'm not the main tank and i've got several levels to go before i'm at that point. thanks though, i was certain but not positively certain. and at the same time i could do searing blade with time stands still using my bastard sword so each attack would be doing: 1d10+4 and 2d6+9 (i think) that's another question, searing blade and other maneuvers say +1/initiator level and is the initiator level your full level or you level for purposes of determining the maneuvers you can learn?
Tempest Stormwind 04-17-07, 03:28 PM	well i'm just saying it looks cool to do. I'm not the main tank and i've got several levels to go before i'm at that point. thanks though, i was certain but not positively certain. and at the same time i could do searing blade with time stands still using my bastard sword so each attack would be doing: 1d10+4 and 2d6+9 (i think) that's another question, searing blade and other maneuvers say +1/initiator level and is the initiator level your full level or you level for purposes of determining the maneuvers you can learn? 1) Never spend a maneuver on any of the later Burning Blade maneuvers. Burning Blade deals 1d6+IL, Searing Blade deals 2d6+IL, and Inferno Blade deals 3d6+IL. That's only 7 average damage increase between the first-level Burning Blade and the MUCH higher-level Inferno Blade. There's no reason to upgrade, and the only reason to take more than one is to use them without recovering in between. 2) Initiator level is your level in the class that learned the maneuver + your level in any other class that says it counts toward your IL (mostly PrCs) + 1/2 all other levels. A swordsage 9 / Master of Nine 3 / Fighter 2 has a swordsage initiator level of 13. A Warblade 6 / Swordsage 2 has a warblade initiator level of 7 and a swordsage initiator level of 5. This DOES mean that, for instance, a Ninja 2 / Monk 2 can take a level of swordsage, start with a swordsage initiator level of 3, and pick second-level maneuvers for his first swordsage level (provided he meets the maneuver requirements). 3) Your optimization-fu is generally pretty weak if you're only dealing +4 damage with your primary weapon at level 17.
Darth Krieg 04-17-07, 06:56 PM	1) Never spend a maneuver on any of the later Burning Blade maneuvers. Burning Blade deals 1d6+IL, Searing Blade deals 2d6+IL, and Inferno Blade deals 3d6+IL. That's only 7 average damage increase between the first-level Burning Blade and the MUCH higher-level Inferno Blade. There's no reason to upgrade, and the only reason to take more than one is to use them without recovering in between. 2) Initiator level is your level in the class that learned the maneuver + your level in any other class that says it counts toward your IL (mostly PrCs) + 1/2 all other levels. A swordsage 9 / Master of Nine 3 / Fighter 2 has a swordsage initiator level of 13. A Warblade 6 / Swordsage 2 has a warblade initiator level of 7 and a swordsage initiator level of 5. This DOES mean that, for instance, a Ninja 2 / Monk 2 can take a level of swordsage, start with a swordsage initiator level of 3, and pick second-level maneuvers for his first swordsage level (provided he meets the maneuver requirements). 3) Your optimization-fu is generally pretty weak if you're only dealing +4 damage with your primary weapon at level 17. woah dude, i was just asking bout if the combo was legal and the initiator level. i didn't ask for criticisms on my character. and i'm only at level 7 right now so i've still got a while before level 17 rolls around.
Shadowhowler 04-17-07, 10:32 PM	3) Your optimization-fu is generally pretty weak if you're only dealing +4 damage with your primary weapon at level 17. Please remember, not everyone is a Student of the Optimization-fu. Some of us study the Character Development-te. :)
Tempest Stormwind 04-17-07, 10:43 PM	Please remember, not everyone is a Student of the Optimization-fu. Some of us study the Character Development-te. :) And nothing stops you from studying both, remember. But a mis-step in optimization cannot be solved by applying development, as the two deal with different problems. ;)
Vaelan 04-17-07, 10:46 PM	First, it's open to warblades and swordsages, but to do so requires (I think) four Diamond Mind maneuvers, three Tiger Claw manevuers, both of these, and as high an attack bonus as you can get (meaning warblade of the two -- but note that this costs nine of the thirteen maneuvers you'll ever know). I find the idea that Average BAB classes are hopeless in melee combat to be incredibly short-sighted. If I can make a character for whom 12 is the optimal PA amount against over 70% of opponents of a CR equal to my level (in the level range at which these abilities are available), then a combatant with Average BAB can hit often enough to cap out the Windmill, even with fewer attacks. Second, it can only be done once per combat unless you recover both maneuvers. The best you can do with this is every other round, and that assumes your target isn't moving. If you're a Warblade, you get a move action to approach every time you refresh maneuvers since the only requirement is that you make an attack or spend a standard action doing nothing. Third, it gets weaker against anything but a single opponent. That is debatable. Let's say you get 8 hits. 8 hits on one person is 20d6 damage. 4 hits on two opponents is 12d6 to each of them for a total of 24d6. 2 hits on four opponents is 8d6 to each of them for a total of 32d6. Targetting a greater number of opponents yields greater overall damage. Throw in some smart-targetting spells and you could take out a crowd in record time. Fourth, the only reason you think it looks strong is because 20d6 is a big number. First of all, do you really want to be telling people why they think what they think? Second, that should read "20d6 plus the damage of two full attacks". It is... but it isn't out of people's hands. At level 17 (the level you can do this at), wizards have been dealing 20d6 for quite a few levels now... That should read "20d6 plus the damage of two full attacks". I would also add the word "not" between "have" and "been", though there is ample ground to disagree on this last point. (at least six levels, since level 11 is when Disintegrate (with its 22d6) shows up... and that spell now deals 34d6 damage for them WITHOUT metamagic) I have always found the argument that disintegrate is a damage-dealing spell rather than a save-or-(probably-)die ridiculous. The argument tends to disregard the facts of the matter, namely that a successful save reduces the damage to a greater degree than it will with an actual damage spell and that, with the exception of Undead which this spell utterly hoses, Fortitude saves are easier than Reflex saves (Constitution is generally prioritized more highly than Dexterity, more classes have Good Fortitude saves). ...and they just got spells like Meteor Swarm (if you're looking for damage) which deals 24d6. And if the initiator can deal 4d6 damage in two full attacks, this particular strategy does as much damage, likely more since it doesn't check against an incredibly common energy resist four times. They can also do those every round. As long as spell slots hold out. You referenced a level 17 Wizard. That's two times per day at best. I'm going to bet that, assuming the game is run by the guidelines listed in the PHB, the Warblade is going to be doing this particular trick much more often than that. I can't help but notice a systematic, not to mention unfounded, attempt to undervalue the Tome of Battle.
Shadowhowler 04-17-07, 11:29 PM	And nothing stops you from studying both, remember. But a mis-step in optimization cannot be solved by applying development, as the two deal with different problems. ;) Ah yes grasshopper... to be a master of both, that is truly a wonder to behold. I have yet to find one tho...
Darth Krieg 04-18-07, 01:05 AM	right now i'm trying to develop my character rather than stats. like at level 8 i'm boosting my dex to make the bonus a +3 and then after that i'll be boosting my int to a +2 for when i go eternal blade and after that i don't know. but i've got a +4 wis mod and and trying to optimize my AC options, i'll be getting some bracers of armor and an amulet of natural armor. plus i've got dodge and desert wind dodge. so i'm trying to get my ac up as much as possible, because i may be the back-up or secondary tank in the group but sometimes i really can't take a hit.