TOB Manuvers as feats without TOB classes? [Archive] - Wizards Community

TOB Manuvers as feats without TOB classes? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
heavenisme
11-27-07, 02:21 PM I have been reading through Tomb of battle and the feat Martial study lets you learn any manuver as long as you meet the reqirement for the manuver.

It says you can choose this feat even if you don't have class levels in tomb of battle classes. (Correct?)

As far as learning higher level manuvers you only need to meet their reqirements not take class levels.(Correct?)

Reqirements are usually learning two lower level powers, for higher level manuvers.(Correct?)

So any class could take TOB manuvers as feats? (Correct?)
Rebel581
11-27-07, 02:30 PM Yes. Make sure that the requirements include level. Your maneuver level is equal to half of your ECL with no ToB classes.
Nadaka
11-27-07, 02:45 PM Yes. Make sure that the requirements include level. Your maneuver level is equal to half of your ECL with no ToB classes.

Your initiator level is equal to half your other class levels (rounded down) + your initiator class level.
The max level of maneuver you can have is your (initiator level +1) / 2 rounded down.

So if you have no initiator class levels, all your levels are "other" allowing you a max maneuver level of (level/2+1)/2. So at level 12 you could select a max of 3rd level maneuver.

A level 10 swordsage/level 5 warblade has a warblade initiator level of 10 and a swordsage initiator level of 12. This is because for a warblade, swordsage counts as an "other" class and vis versa.
Mindolin
11-27-07, 02:47 PM And remember that you can take a maximum of three manuevers this way. Stances are not limited in the same way.
Nadaka
11-27-07, 02:59 PM And remember that you can take a maximum of three manuevers this way. Stances are not limited in the same way.

Correct, though honestly, i do not believe that it would be imbalanced to allow more than 3 maneuvers and even allow initiator level = class level for certain classes (fighter).

A fighter that spends all 11 feats on martial feats could mimic the 7 maneuvers and 4 stances of a warblade... Without the skillpoints, class features, hit points, recovery method, or maneuver swapping.
Mindolin
11-27-07, 04:17 PM Perhaps, but that would be a house rule that the DM would have to agree on. That is a good idea though, I might start using that in my campaign.
SolenVlos
11-27-07, 05:03 PM I don't own ToB, but took a look t my friend's. can I ask some questions?

can a character use more than one stance at the same time?
a character is limited to one "style" at time? as in, if he take or use tiger's claw stance, he can't use iron diamond manouver or vice-versa?
is there a feat to take a boost?

I'm asking this questions becouse I plan to take Hunter's sense to my ranger. If I understood correctly, I NEED to take the Wolf's something manouver, becouse Hunter's sense has "one tiger's claw manouver" as a pre-requisite, right?

i'm strongly thinking on importing it.
ThkkBldstrm
11-27-07, 05:27 PM SolenVlos to answer your questions:
1) Unless you take the PrC Master of Nine (which looks really nifty), you can only maintain one stance at a time.
2) You are not limited to one style. For example, you may use an Desert Wind strike and be in a Iron Heart stance.
3) Boosts can be taken with martial study feat just like strikes as they are considered maneuvers.

At least those are things as I understand them.

Hope that helps.

:fight!:
Mojo_Rat
11-27-07, 05:36 PM Another thing that should be pointed out is prestige classes raise your initiator level 1 for 1. so a level 10 fighter with say 10 levels in champion of corellion lorethion would have an initiator level of 15.

I believe you can only take the Maneuver as a feat option 3 times though. But allowing more as a house rule would be fine I believe.
Essex
11-27-07, 06:28 PM Another thing that should be pointed out is prestige classes raise your initiator level 1 for 1. so a level 10 fighter with say 10 levels in champion of corellion lorethion would have an initiator level of 15.

I believe that it is only the Prestige Classes from Tome of Battle that raise your initiator level on a 1 for 1 basis.
ThkkBldstrm
11-27-07, 06:38 PM Where's the Champion of Corellion Lorethion? I'm not seeing it in the PrC section of the ToB.
Nephlite
11-27-07, 06:41 PM Where's the Champion of Corellion Lorethion? I'm not seeing it in the PrC section of the ToB.
Races of the Wild: and it only increases it by 1/2 level.

Because it is not martial Adept/Prc.
InkBlot
11-27-07, 06:50 PM Magocrat made a great Tome Of Battle FAQ thread that can answer pretty much any question ever about ToB. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=890611)

As for eliminating the martial adepts but keeping Martial Study, Martial Stance; I think that if you do this, then you need to beef up the feats a little. Remove the limit of three Martial Studies. Allow your initiator level to equal your full character level (or perhaps your BAB) instead of 1/2 character level. Create feats that grant recovery methods. Maneuvers aren't better than the feats you could get at the same level (although until PHBII there was a dearth of high-level fighter feats), especially when you consider the limitation on how often you can use them.
Salla
11-27-07, 07:14 PM I have been reading through Tomb of battle and the feat Martial study lets you learn any manuver as long as you meet the reqirement for the manuver.

It says you can choose this feat even if you don't have class levels in tomb of battle classes. (Correct?)

As far as learning higher level manuvers you only need to meet their reqirements not take class levels.(Correct?)

Reqirements are usually learning two lower level powers, for higher level manuvers.(Correct?)

So any class could take TOB manuvers as feats? (Correct?)

Since all the rest of this has been well-answered, I just have one thing to add.

TOME. Not tomb. Tome. A tomb is a place you bury dead people, a tome is a book.
ibayboy
11-28-07, 04:09 AM can a character use more than one stance at the same time?

SolenVlos to answer your questions:
1) Unless you take the PrC Master of Nine (which looks really nifty), you can only maintain one stance at a time.

A 20th level Warblade can also use two stances at the same time, with Stance Mastery.
ThkkBldstrm
11-28-07, 08:45 PM A 20th level Warblade can also use two stances at the same time, with Stance Mastery.

AH yes, I forgot about that.
adamblack
11-30-07, 11:13 AM Pardon my overall ignorance with the TOB, but I am for the first time looking at using Martial study to obtain a maneuver for a character. The maneuver I am looking to take is Action Before Thought which allows a reflex save to be replaced by a concentration check. However I am a bit confused. It appears that the maneuver could be used once per battle, and then reset after battle is finished, but I am unclear whether also taking the feat Sudden Recovery work for me.

My confusion comes from the statement in the section on recovery that a person getting a maneuver in this way cannot recover maneuvers from any special action... Does that include the use of the sudden recovery feat? I read it to mean they can't be recovered from any of the items listed in that particular "special actions" section and that the Sudden Recovery feat would work for my character.

Any input is appreciated.
Adam
Nadaka
11-30-07, 11:35 AM sudden recovery requires at least 1 level in an initiator class. One that will grant a rapid recovery method.
adamblack
11-30-07, 01:26 PM I don't see that Sudden Recovery has any prerequisite other than that you already have a martial maneuver. Nadaka, can you please direct me to the page where you got that?

Adam
CryoSilver
11-30-07, 01:29 PM I err on the side of saying you cannot recover it, because it does not say "you ready this maneuver." It says "...you can use this maneuver once per encounter..." and furthermore, states that there is no recovery method.
adamblack
11-30-07, 02:29 PM Actually Martial Study says that "If you do not have martial adept levels when you take this feat, and you later gain a level in a class that grants maneuvers known, these new maneuvers can be used only once per encounter and have no recovery method." It is talking therein about maneuvers gained from a class that grants maneuvers known, not those gained from this feat.

It goes on to say "If you later gain levels in a martial adept class... you use the recovery method for maneuvers learned as a result of those class levels, but your previous maneuvers (gained through this feat or through prestige class levels) do not gain a recovery method." There it says that the manuever from Martial Study would not gain a recovery method, though I interpret that to mean that the class does not provide one as stated under "special actions."

Then I read Sudden Recovery and it is, in its simplicity, very clear to me in allowing the recovery of a martial maneuver as a swift action. If there were supposed to be exclusions wouldn't they be present in the text here as is often the case in the texts to be clear about whether the stated benefits do not apply to something?

Adam
CryoSilver
11-30-07, 03:26 PM That's up to interpretation, but it wouldn't be broken to allow Sudden Recovery to work, since it'd be like taking Martial Study twice for the same maneuver (which isn't allowed), excpt slightly worse, since you have to use a swift action to recover, meaning if it's a boost or counter, it can't be used 2 rounds in a row.
Neutronium_Dragon
11-30-07, 09:14 PM > If I understood correctly, I NEED to take the Wolf's something manouver,
> becouse Hunter's sense has "one tiger's claw manouver" as a pre-requisite,
> right?

If your ranger is level 6 (and thus has an initiator level of 3), he could instead choose one of the level 2 maneuver in the Tiger Claw discipline, since neither of them have any prerequisites. This would also count as the one maneuver needed for Hunter's Sense.

(I didn't check if any of the 3rd+ level Tiger Claw maneuvers also lack prerequisites, but if they do and your initiator level is high enough then they'll work too.)
Mojo_Rat
11-30-07, 09:34 PM In referenc to my previous post. I used champion of corellion lorethion as a PRc example of a characer with no ToB classes and an initator level of 15.

In regards to PRc's advancing your initator level on page 39 last paragraph of the description of multiclass characters.
Teydyn
12-01-07, 04:04 AM In regards to PRc's advancing your initator level on page 39 last paragraph of the description of multiclass characters.
Great, "in most cases" doesnt say anything at all.

And in Chapter 5 Prestigeclasses nothing is said about that either. A normal PrC doesnt give you Maneuvers so it shouldnt improve you IL fully. Cant find a thing that says it does.

EDIT:
look here ToB FAQ (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=890611), under Prestige CLass Questions. The 1st Question answered by Customer Service gives you what you want to know. (Or maybe NOT want to know :))
InkBlot
12-01-07, 07:27 PM Sudden Recovery is terrible because it only works once per day. Maybe it's better than nothing, but not a whole lot better.

Psychic Renewal is tons better, but only if you have a good source of power points (levels in a psionic class or being a Kalashtar). Wild Talent would let you qualify for Psychic Renewal, but with only Wild Talent's 2 pp you wouldn't be able to recover any maneuvers over 2nd level, and you'd only be able to recover a 1st level maneuver twice a day.
CryoSilver
12-01-07, 11:13 PM Sudden Recovery's usefulness is mostly in regaining powerful strikes, since losing your swift action to do so doesn't hamper you using the strike twice in a row. Time Stands Still twice in 2 rounds? 4 full attacks in 2 rounds? Yes, please.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
heavenisme 11-27-07, 02:21 PM	I have been reading through Tomb of battle and the feat Martial study lets you learn any manuver as long as you meet the reqirement for the manuver. It says you can choose this feat even if you don't have class levels in tomb of battle classes. (Correct?) As far as learning higher level manuvers you only need to meet their reqirements not take class levels.(Correct?) Reqirements are usually learning two lower level powers, for higher level manuvers.(Correct?) So any class could take TOB manuvers as feats? (Correct?)
Rebel581 11-27-07, 02:30 PM	Yes. Make sure that the requirements include level. Your maneuver level is equal to half of your ECL with no ToB classes.
Nadaka 11-27-07, 02:45 PM	Yes. Make sure that the requirements include level. Your maneuver level is equal to half of your ECL with no ToB classes. Your initiator level is equal to half your other class levels (rounded down) + your initiator class level. The max level of maneuver you can have is your (initiator level +1) / 2 rounded down. So if you have no initiator class levels, all your levels are "other" allowing you a max maneuver level of (level/2+1)/2. So at level 12 you could select a max of 3rd level maneuver. A level 10 swordsage/level 5 warblade has a warblade initiator level of 10 and a swordsage initiator level of 12. This is because for a warblade, swordsage counts as an "other" class and vis versa.
Mindolin 11-27-07, 02:47 PM	And remember that you can take a maximum of three manuevers this way. Stances are not limited in the same way.
Nadaka 11-27-07, 02:59 PM	And remember that you can take a maximum of three manuevers this way. Stances are not limited in the same way. Correct, though honestly, i do not believe that it would be imbalanced to allow more than 3 maneuvers and even allow initiator level = class level for certain classes (fighter). A fighter that spends all 11 feats on martial feats could mimic the 7 maneuvers and 4 stances of a warblade... Without the skillpoints, class features, hit points, recovery method, or maneuver swapping.
Mindolin 11-27-07, 04:17 PM	Perhaps, but that would be a house rule that the DM would have to agree on. That is a good idea though, I might start using that in my campaign.
SolenVlos 11-27-07, 05:03 PM	I don't own ToB, but took a look t my friend's. can I ask some questions? can a character use more than one stance at the same time? a character is limited to one "style" at time? as in, if he take or use tiger's claw stance, he can't use iron diamond manouver or vice-versa? is there a feat to take a boost? I'm asking this questions becouse I plan to take Hunter's sense to my ranger. If I understood correctly, I NEED to take the Wolf's something manouver, becouse Hunter's sense has "one tiger's claw manouver" as a pre-requisite, right? i'm strongly thinking on importing it.
ThkkBldstrm 11-27-07, 05:27 PM	SolenVlos to answer your questions: 1) Unless you take the PrC Master of Nine (which looks really nifty), you can only maintain one stance at a time. 2) You are not limited to one style. For example, you may use an Desert Wind strike and be in a Iron Heart stance. 3) Boosts can be taken with martial study feat just like strikes as they are considered maneuvers. At least those are things as I understand them. Hope that helps. :fight!:
Mojo_Rat 11-27-07, 05:36 PM	Another thing that should be pointed out is prestige classes raise your initiator level 1 for 1. so a level 10 fighter with say 10 levels in champion of corellion lorethion would have an initiator level of 15. I believe you can only take the Maneuver as a feat option 3 times though. But allowing more as a house rule would be fine I believe.
Essex 11-27-07, 06:28 PM	Another thing that should be pointed out is prestige classes raise your initiator level 1 for 1. so a level 10 fighter with say 10 levels in champion of corellion lorethion would have an initiator level of 15. I believe that it is only the Prestige Classes from Tome of Battle that raise your initiator level on a 1 for 1 basis.
ThkkBldstrm 11-27-07, 06:38 PM	Where's the Champion of Corellion Lorethion? I'm not seeing it in the PrC section of the ToB.
Nephlite 11-27-07, 06:41 PM	Where's the Champion of Corellion Lorethion? I'm not seeing it in the PrC section of the ToB. Races of the Wild: and it only increases it by 1/2 level. Because it is not martial Adept/Prc.
InkBlot 11-27-07, 06:50 PM	Magocrat made a great Tome Of Battle FAQ thread that can answer pretty much any question ever about ToB. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=890611) As for eliminating the martial adepts but keeping Martial Study, Martial Stance; I think that if you do this, then you need to beef up the feats a little. Remove the limit of three Martial Studies. Allow your initiator level to equal your full character level (or perhaps your BAB) instead of 1/2 character level. Create feats that grant recovery methods. Maneuvers aren't better than the feats you could get at the same level (although until PHBII there was a dearth of high-level fighter feats), especially when you consider the limitation on how often you can use them.
Salla 11-27-07, 07:14 PM	I have been reading through Tomb of battle and the feat Martial study lets you learn any manuver as long as you meet the reqirement for the manuver. It says you can choose this feat even if you don't have class levels in tomb of battle classes. (Correct?) As far as learning higher level manuvers you only need to meet their reqirements not take class levels.(Correct?) Reqirements are usually learning two lower level powers, for higher level manuvers.(Correct?) So any class could take TOB manuvers as feats? (Correct?) Since all the rest of this has been well-answered, I just have one thing to add. TOME. Not tomb. Tome. A tomb is a place you bury dead people, a tome is a book.
ibayboy 11-28-07, 04:09 AM	can a character use more than one stance at the same time? SolenVlos to answer your questions: 1) Unless you take the PrC Master of Nine (which looks really nifty), you can only maintain one stance at a time. A 20th level Warblade can also use two stances at the same time, with Stance Mastery.
ThkkBldstrm 11-28-07, 08:45 PM	A 20th level Warblade can also use two stances at the same time, with Stance Mastery. AH yes, I forgot about that.
adamblack 11-30-07, 11:13 AM	Pardon my overall ignorance with the TOB, but I am for the first time looking at using Martial study to obtain a maneuver for a character. The maneuver I am looking to take is Action Before Thought which allows a reflex save to be replaced by a concentration check. However I am a bit confused. It appears that the maneuver could be used once per battle, and then reset after battle is finished, but I am unclear whether also taking the feat Sudden Recovery work for me. My confusion comes from the statement in the section on recovery that a person getting a maneuver in this way cannot recover maneuvers from any special action... Does that include the use of the sudden recovery feat? I read it to mean they can't be recovered from any of the items listed in that particular "special actions" section and that the Sudden Recovery feat would work for my character. Any input is appreciated. Adam
Nadaka 11-30-07, 11:35 AM	sudden recovery requires at least 1 level in an initiator class. One that will grant a rapid recovery method.
adamblack 11-30-07, 01:26 PM	I don't see that Sudden Recovery has any prerequisite other than that you already have a martial maneuver. Nadaka, can you please direct me to the page where you got that? Adam
CryoSilver 11-30-07, 01:29 PM	I err on the side of saying you cannot recover it, because it does not say "you ready this maneuver." It says "...you can use this maneuver once per encounter..." and furthermore, states that there is no recovery method.
adamblack 11-30-07, 02:29 PM	Actually Martial Study says that "If you do not have martial adept levels when you take this feat, and you later gain a level in a class that grants maneuvers known, these new maneuvers can be used only once per encounter and have no recovery method." It is talking therein about maneuvers gained from a class that grants maneuvers known, not those gained from this feat. It goes on to say "If you later gain levels in a martial adept class... you use the recovery method for maneuvers learned as a result of those class levels, but your previous maneuvers (gained through this feat or through prestige class levels) do not gain a recovery method." There it says that the manuever from Martial Study would not gain a recovery method, though I interpret that to mean that the class does not provide one as stated under "special actions." Then I read Sudden Recovery and it is, in its simplicity, very clear to me in allowing the recovery of a martial maneuver as a swift action. If there were supposed to be exclusions wouldn't they be present in the text here as is often the case in the texts to be clear about whether the stated benefits do not apply to something? Adam
CryoSilver 11-30-07, 03:26 PM	That's up to interpretation, but it wouldn't be broken to allow Sudden Recovery to work, since it'd be like taking Martial Study twice for the same maneuver (which isn't allowed), excpt slightly worse, since you have to use a swift action to recover, meaning if it's a boost or counter, it can't be used 2 rounds in a row.
Neutronium_Dragon 11-30-07, 09:14 PM	> If I understood correctly, I NEED to take the Wolf's something manouver, > becouse Hunter's sense has "one tiger's claw manouver" as a pre-requisite, > right? If your ranger is level 6 (and thus has an initiator level of 3), he could instead choose one of the level 2 maneuver in the Tiger Claw discipline, since neither of them have any prerequisites. This would also count as the one maneuver needed for Hunter's Sense. (I didn't check if any of the 3rd+ level Tiger Claw maneuvers also lack prerequisites, but if they do and your initiator level is high enough then they'll work too.)
Mojo_Rat 11-30-07, 09:34 PM	In referenc to my previous post. I used champion of corellion lorethion as a PRc example of a characer with no ToB classes and an initator level of 15. In regards to PRc's advancing your initator level on page 39 last paragraph of the description of multiclass characters.
Teydyn 12-01-07, 04:04 AM	In regards to PRc's advancing your initator level on page 39 last paragraph of the description of multiclass characters. Great, "in most cases" doesnt say anything at all. And in Chapter 5 Prestigeclasses nothing is said about that either. A normal PrC doesnt give you Maneuvers so it shouldnt improve you IL fully. Cant find a thing that says it does. EDIT: look here ToB FAQ (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=890611), under Prestige CLass Questions. The 1st Question answered by Customer Service gives you what you want to know. (Or maybe NOT want to know :))
InkBlot 12-01-07, 07:27 PM	Sudden Recovery is terrible because it only works once per day. Maybe it's better than nothing, but not a whole lot better. Psychic Renewal is tons better, but only if you have a good source of power points (levels in a psionic class or being a Kalashtar). Wild Talent would let you qualify for Psychic Renewal, but with only Wild Talent's 2 pp you wouldn't be able to recover any maneuvers over 2nd level, and you'd only be able to recover a 1st level maneuver twice a day.
CryoSilver 12-01-07, 11:13 PM	Sudden Recovery's usefulness is mostly in regaining powerful strikes, since losing your swift action to do so doesn't hamper you using the strike twice in a row. Time Stands Still twice in 2 rounds? 4 full attacks in 2 rounds? Yes, please.