Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Azog 01-18-08, 07:01 PM	Is it possible to use a Strike Maneuver as part of a Spring Attack? I seem to think not, but I've been known to be wrong before.
runestar 01-18-08, 07:26 PM	Spring attack allows you to make a single attack in between moves. ToB maneuvers are for most part, standard actions, so they cannot be used in tandem with spring attack.
Azog 01-18-08, 07:40 PM	Exactly what I thought - thanks.
ZiggZagg 01-18-08, 07:58 PM	Flyby attack on the other hand...:cool:
Crimson_Concerto 01-19-08, 01:06 AM	*Reads topic title* No. Spring attack allows for a single attack action. Maneuvers are usually standard actions, so that won't work. Though, you could pull it off with Fly-By Attack. *Reads thread* That's what I thought and I was beaten to the punch. You'd be surprised how often this has been asked. :P
CBeyond 01-23-08, 08:00 PM	I do not understand why everyone has agreed on this. Is a "single attack action" not a standard action? If it is a standard action, how does that differ from a Strike Maneuver that is a standard action? I don't see why you can't do a strike in the middle of a spring attack.
ZiggZagg 01-23-08, 08:04 PM	No, it is an "attack action" :P . The difference is minute, but it has been brought up more than a couple times that they are clearly different
Enigmis 01-23-08, 08:06 PM	I do not understand why everyone has agreed on this. Is a "single attack action" not a standard action? If it is a standard action, how does that differ from a Strike Maneuver that is a standard action? I don't see why you can't do a strike in the middle of a spring attack. single attack action =/= standard action. A standard action can be used to perform an attack, but an attack cannot be used to perform a standard action. (does this make sense?)
Witch 01-23-08, 08:08 PM	I do not understand why everyone has agreed on this. Is a "single attack action" not a standard action? If it is a standard action, how does that differ from a Strike Maneuver that is a standard action? I don't see why you can't do a strike in the middle of a spring attack. A parrot is a bird. Not all birds are parrots. An attack action is a standard action. Not all standard actions are attack actions.
ZiggZagg 01-23-08, 08:18 PM	A parrot is a bird. Not all birds are parrots. An attack action is a standard action. Not all standard actions are attack actions. That is actually one of the best ways I have heard that explained
Mad_Jack 01-23-08, 08:21 PM	A maneuver isn't an attack. Even a Strike maneuver isn't an attack. Strike maneuvers usually *include* an attack, but the standard action required is "use a maneuver" rather than "make an attack". The "use a maneuver" action permits you to make *an attack roll* but it's still part of the "use a maneuver" action, and not an "attack" action. It may seem like semantics, but this prevents you from bending the rules by doing cheezy things like using a strike maneuver that grants you multiple attacks, thus basically being able to get a full round of attacks and still move. If I had the TWF feats, and used one of the Tiger Claw maneuvers during a Spring Attack, I could potentially run up, attack multiple times, and then move away again. (I say potentially because I'm not particularly familiar with Tiger Claw, so I'd have to go back and research the specifics of the maneuvers.) Spring Attack was only meant to allow you to change the timing of the single regular melee attack you'd get in a turn in which you both move and attack. Gods only know what hideous cheese you could pull off with some of the higher level strike maneuvers. Here's a good example - the Desert Wind strike maneuver Dragon's Flame. You're throwing a 30ft. cone of fire as a standard action. Running over to someone, charbroiling them and everyone behind them, and then running back to the safety of your party isn't quite the same thing as stabbing them with a knife as you skip past.
CBeyond 01-23-08, 09:49 PM	It appears everyone is against me, but I will persevere. In my opinion, the various action types (Full-Round, Move, Standard, Swift, Immediate, Free) define how much time it take to do something, or when you can do it, but not what you can do. The exact wording of the Spring Attack feat states "When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can split your move action in that round in order to move both before and after the attack..." A melee attack requires a standard action. Most martial maneuvers require a standard action. Therefore the two are equivalent in the amount of time required to perform them. Martial strike maneuvers include a melee attack, so they qualify for the "attack action" mentioned in the Spring Attack feat description. (other maneuvers that don't involve a melee attack may not qualify) The fact that the maneuver may include other stuff like doing a flourish or letting out a yelp is irrelevant. The Spring Attack feat description does not state that you're not allowed to do other stuff if you have time to do it. I believe you can do a Martial Strike Maneuver in the middle of a spring attack. If you think it's overpowered, well I guess that's a matter of opinion. By the way, if there's a Tome of Battle FAQ or errata from Richard Baker addressing this, please direct me to it.
Crimson_Concerto 01-23-08, 10:04 PM	In my opinion, the various action types (Full-Round, Move, Standard, Swift, Immediate, Free) define how much time it take to do something, or when you can do it, but not what you can do. ... A melee attack requires a standard action. Most martial maneuvers require a standard action. Therefore the two are equivalent in the amount of time required to perform them.Nobody's disagreeing with the fact that making an attack action and using a martial maneuver don't take the same amount of time: a standard action. The problem is that the Spring Attack feat doesn't let you take a "standard" action it lets you take an "attack" action, which is a specific type of standard action. It's the same reason you can't cast Heal or Harm in the middle of Spring Attack or why you can't use Manyshot in conjunction with Shot on the Run. Martial strike maneuvers include a melee attack, so they qualify for the "attack action" mentioned in the Spring Attack feat description.Untrue. An "attack action" is a specific type of standard action that involves making a single attack. While there may be other things you can do on a standard action that grant you an attack, that is not enough to qualify it as an "attack action." I believe you can do a Martial Strike Maneuver in the middle of a spring attack. If you think it's overpowered, well I guess that's a matter of opinion.I believe it would be overpowered, but either way, it still isn't allowed. By the way, if there's a Tome of Battle FAQ or errata from Richard Baker addressing this, please direct me to it.There's no need. If I'm not mistaken, there is an FAQ entry for Spring Attack which clarifies what an attack action is. I'll look for it and come back. Meanwhile, I'm also fairly sure there's an FAQ entry clarifying why Manyshot can't be used in conjunction with Shot on the Run. While Manyshot does involve making an attack roll, it's specifically stated as being a type of standard action, not an attack action.
Mad_Jack 01-23-08, 10:07 PM	Yes, the different types of actions are definitions of how long something takes to do, but that is completely irrelevant to the definition of Spring Attack. Spring Attack states, "When using the *attack* action with a melee weapon..." From the PH : "Melee Atacks: With a normal melee weapon you can strike any opponent within five feet." It specifies the exact action you are able to take - swinging a melee weapon at an opponent. It doesn't specify the *type* of action, it specifies the *exact* action. An "attack" action and a "use maneuver" action are both standard actions, but they are not the *same* action. If Spring Attack was phrased as " When taking a standard action...", then your point would be valid....
CBeyond 01-24-08, 12:38 AM	I just don't agree that "attack action" and "melee strike maneuver" are so different that they warrant this distinction. They both take the same amount of time. They are both attacks with melee weapons. Where is the phrase "attack action" defined anyway? Mad_Jack quoted the definiton for "melee attack" but that is not the phrase used in the Spring Attack description. I don't think "attack action" is such a well defined concept that you can make an indisputable statement that Spring Attack does not permit a melee strike maneuver in place of an ordinary melee attack.
Merestil Haye 01-24-08, 07:33 AM	I just don't agree that "attack action" and "melee strike maneuver" are so different that they warrant this distinction. They both take the same amount of time. They are both attacks with melee weapons. Where is the phrase "attack action" defined anyway? Mad_Jack quoted the definiton for "melee attack" but that is not the phrase used in the Spring Attack description. I don't think "attack action" is such a well defined concept that you can make an indisputable statement that Spring Attack does not permit a melee strike maneuver in place of an ordinary melee attack.The attack action is defined in the section of the SRD that discusses standard actions. On the table that accompanies that section you see it listed, broken down into three options : Attack (Melee), Attack (Ranged) and Attack (Unarmed). The parenthetical qualifiers don't make them different actions, but different flavours of the same action. (This template is also used elsewhere - for example with feats that provide a choice about what to apply the feat to.) What you argue would result in being able to cast a spell that requires an attack roll in the middle of a spring attack, because the fact that it requires an attack roll makes it equivalent to an attack action and therefore something you can Spring Attack with. While it is true that you can cast a touch-range spell, close with the target and deliver the spell all in one round, you can't move after attempting to deliver the spell.
rjsilverthorn 01-24-08, 07:33 AM	I just don't agree that "attack action" and "melee strike maneuver" are so different that they warrant this distinction. They both take the same amount of time. They are both attacks with melee weapons. Where is the phrase "attack action" defined anyway? Mad_Jack quoted the definiton for "melee attack" but that is not the phrase used in the Spring Attack description. I don't think "attack action" is such a well defined concept that you can make an indisputable statement that Spring Attack does not permit a melee strike maneuver in place of an ordinary melee attack. I'm at work, so I don't have the time to go through the entire FAQ, however this one does directly address the difference between an attack action and a standard action in conjuction with Spring Attack. Can a warlock use his eldritch blast in conjunction with Shot on the Run? What about hideous blow and Spring Attack? No and no. Using eldritch blast requires a standard action. The Shot on the Run and Spring Attack feats only let you use an attack action (that is, a specific kind of standard action) in conjunction with their allowed movement, not any kind of standard action.
CBeyond 01-24-08, 01:12 PM	I read those FAQ questions on Warlock abilities yesterday. They do not apply to this issue because the Warlock Eldritch Blast is a ranged touch attack without a weapon. The Spring Attack feat description states specifically that the attack action must be made with a melee weapon. I would agree that Eldritch Blast is precluded on that basis. The FAQ question still doesn't define the phrase "attack action," it just identifies one ability that is NOT an attack action. Most Martial Strike Maneuvers are so close in function to a melee "attack action" that it is (in my opinion) ridiculous to make a distinction between them. I think a martial strike maneuver IS an attack action. 1. It requires the same amount of time to complete 2. It is an attack performed with a melee weapon Any other "stuff" involved in performing a melee strike maneuver (a flourish, a yelp, scratching your ass) is all flavor, and it's irrelevant. What you argue would result in being able to cast a spell that requires an attack roll in the middle of a spring attack, because the fact that it requires an attack roll makes it equivalent to an attack action and therefore something you can Spring Attack with. While it is true that you can cast a touch-range spell, close with the target and deliver the spell all in one round, you can't move after attempting to deliver the spell. You can't cast a touch spell as an attack action in the middle of a Spring Attack because it doesn't use a melee weapon. Until someone comes up with an official definition of the phrase "attack action" then I think any attack that involves a melee weapon, and takes the same amount of time as a standard action is acceptable in a Spring Attack.
Witch 01-24-08, 01:18 PM	A touch spell counts as a melee weapon.
Eldritch_Lord 01-24-08, 01:53 PM	Consider: You can take multiple attack actions with a full attack, but you can't take multiple standard actions of any other sort. Attack action =/= standard action.
Merestil Haye 01-24-08, 03:33 PM	Most Martial Strike Maneuvers are so close in function to a melee "attack action" that it is (in my opinion) ridiculous to make a distinction between them. I think a martial strike maneuver IS an attack action.Your opinion is not well founded. Every precedent in D&D shows that two very closely related things can require different actions. A spellcaster activating a wand is taking the Use Magic Item action. Therefore the character cannot apply metamagic feats they possess to the spell that the wand casts, even if they are perfectly capable of casting the spell themselves and applying those feats to the spells that they themselves cast. Using Manyshot is the Use Feat action, not an attack action, and you therefore cannot take a Manyshot when making a Shot on the Run. But you can if it is a Flyby Attack. Your argument is fundamentally "If it requires an attack roll, it is an attack action." Inflict Light Wounds requires an attack roll. So does Vampiric Touch. Does that make casting those spells "attack actions?" No, it does not. It requires the Cast Spell action to cast those spells, but the casting of the spell incorporates an attack (if the caster so wishes). This is exactly the same situation as maneuvers; a maneuver requires the specified action type to use, and many incorporate a single attack roll into the maneuver - even if the maneuver requires a full-round action to execute.
rjsilverthorn 01-24-08, 03:59 PM	I read those FAQ questions on Warlock abilities yesterday. They do not apply to this issue because the Warlock Eldritch Blast is a ranged touch attack without a weapon. The Spring Attack feat description states specifically that the attack action must be made with a melee weapon. And yet, he doesn't say Eldritch is not eligible because its not an attack with a melee weapon, he says its not eligible because its a standard action, not an attack action, precisely the issue at hand here. Since every martial strike I can think of has an initiate action of either a standard or full round action, the same thing would apply here.
mplindustries 01-24-08, 04:22 PM	I read those FAQ questions on Warlock abilities yesterday. They do not apply to this issue because the Warlock Eldritch Blast is a ranged touch attack without a weapon. The Spring Attack feat description states specifically that the attack action must be made with a melee weapon. I would agree that Eldritch Blast is precluded on that basis. The FAQ question still doesn't define the phrase "attack action," it just identifies one ability that is NOT an attack action. Most Martial Strike Maneuvers are so close in function to a melee "attack action" that it is (in my opinion) ridiculous to make a distinction between them. I think a martial strike maneuver IS an attack action. 1. It requires the same amount of time to complete 2. It is an attack performed with a melee weapon Any other "stuff" involved in performing a melee strike maneuver (a flourish, a yelp, scratching your ass) is all flavor, and it's irrelevant. Basically, your argument is that "It makes sense, and its not overpowered." Have you ever played D&D before? No, but seriously, your argument is fine for houserulings, but it just doesn't fly for official rules discussions. "Its not overpowered." I completely agree. That doesn't mean anything. There are lots of illegal things that aren't overpowered. "It makes sense" Unfortunately, the labyrinth of standard action interactions don't. It doesn't matter how close in function something is. A glaive and a guisarme are close in function, but that doesn't make them the same thing. You can't use a strike during a spring attack because a spring attack allows an attack action. An attack action, as most so far have failed to mention, does not take the same amount of effort as a standard action. You can use a standard action to make an attack action, but not vice versa. You can use a standard action to make a move action as well, but I don't think you would try and argue that move and standard actions are the same amount of effort. Additionally, if you make a full-round attack, you get multiple attack actions based on your iterative base attack. If an attack action used as much effort as a standard action, I can't imagine anyone being alright with a full-round attack giving you (potentially) so many standard actions. A strike is not the same as an attack action, though most involve an attack roll, just as most touch spells do. Things in D&D don't always make sense and they don't have to. A 6' tall man takes up a 5' cube. A cart drawn by 4 horses is 40' wide. It doesn't matter, thats just how things are done. So absolutely go ahead and use your houserule to use maneuvers on spring attacks, but you just have no traction for your argument that it is official. Nobody should have to prove you wrong. You should have to prove that you are right.
ToastedAmphibian 01-24-08, 05:36 PM	Can a warlock use his eldritch blast in conjunction with Shot on the Run? What about hideous blow and Spring Attack? No and no. Using eldritch blast requires a standard action. The Shot on the Run and Spring Attack feats only let you use an attack action (that is, a specific kind of standard action) in conjunction with their allowed movement, not any kind of standard action. They dont mention eldretch blast with spring attack, BECAUSE its not a weapon attack. HIDEOUS BLOW, which IS a melee weapon attack, a special kind of melee weapon attack that requiers a standard action, much like a manuever is a special kind of weapon attack that requiers a standard action, IS listed in conjunction with spring attack. Hideous Blow requiers a standard action to activate, as part of that action you make a single melee attack roll with a weapon you are currently wielding, and if you successfully hit you add your eldretch blast damage to your damage roll. To me that sounds a helluvalot like alot of manuveres. And it dosnt work with spring attack. For the same reason that manuevers dont. Its a STANDARD ACTION.
kalstrand 01-24-08, 06:27 PM	Attack Action is defined on p. 139 of the PHB. About halfway down the left column is a section titled Standard Actions in blue font then a paragraph describing standard actions followed by Attack also in blue which defines the Attack Action. Just a note from someone above. A full attack does not allow multiple Attack Actions just multiple attacks.
Eldritch_Lord 01-25-08, 10:09 PM	Just a note from someone above. A full attack does not allow multiple Attack Actions just multiple attacks. Well, there are a few feats and/or class abilities (can't remember which; AFB at the moment) that say an ability is used as an "attack action" and then say some thing like "so this may be used in place of an attack or during a full attack" or some such. Attack actions are not always multiple attacks, but they're not always standard actions either.
Merestil Haye 01-26-08, 09:03 AM	Well, there are a few feats and/or class abilities (can't remember which; AFB at the moment) that say an ability is used as an "attack action" and then say some thing like "so this may be used in place of an attack or during a full attack" or some such. Attack actions are not always multiple attacks, but they're not always standard actions either.An attack action is always a standard action. Always. The confusion is that some actions that are not attack actions allow you to make an attack (touch spells, for example, or most rays), or allow multiple attacks but don't count as multiple attack actions. You can even make an attack at a time you can make no attack at all (by making an AoO). Abilities are either substitutes for an attack (in which case they can take the place of any of a character's attacks in a full attack action, or be used in place of an AoO) or they are their own action.
Eldritch_Lord 01-26-08, 11:03 AM	An attack action is always a standard action. Always. The confusion is that some actions that are not attack actions allow you to make an attack (touch spells, for example, or most rays), or allow multiple attacks but don't count as multiple attack actions. You can even make an attack at a time you can make no attack at all (by making an AoO). Abilities are either substitutes for an attack (in which case they can take the place of any of a character's attacks in a full attack action, or be used in place of an AoO) or they are their own action. Well, it seems I was mistaken. I looked through my books and it appears I was remembering an old 3.0 PHB where they mention "attack actions" in reference to multiple attacks. Carry on.
rexaroo 02-06-08, 01:12 PM	hey guys, i know this thread is a couple weeks dead but i need to put in my 2 cents as a friend of mine felt he was being shot down irrationally on this thread. it turns out he was not being shot down irrationally but was being informed without reference to the rules. i hope this clears things up for him with these references. :) now, it seems that you are all getting hung up on these matial maneuver actions being a function of TIME. but these actions are not a function of time but a simple function of the rules. da rules (PH pg.138) under "standard action" tells you : "the most common type of standard action is an attack--a single MELEE or RANGED attack." then blah blah blah "See table 8-2". going over to table 8-2 you see that a STANDARD ACTION can be a lot of things, the most relevant to this thread being: ATTACK(MELEE) ATTACK(RANGED) ... ... USE EXTRAORDINARY ABILITY ... USE SUPERNATURAL ABILITY now bear with me. :) on PH pg.100 under spring attack feat it says: "when using the ATTACK action with a MELEE weapon..." that is: an ATTACK(MELEE). so, during the use of the spring attack feat you need to use the ATTACK(MELEE) standard action in order to move both before and after the attack. now the question remains: what type of action are martial powers (stances and maneuvers [which include boosts, counters, and strikes]) from the book of nine swords? Bo9S pg.37 list maneuvers (which include boosts, counters, and strikes) as either EXTRAORDINARY or SUPERNATURAL effects. so the reason you cant use a martial maneuver with the spring attack feat is not because there is 'no time' to use it, but because you can only use the standard action called 'attack(melee)' with the feat and not an 'extraordiany' or 'supernatural' ability. :) i hope that helps to clairify. :)
navar100 02-06-08, 09:51 PM	Just to add to the confusion, there are some strike maneuvers that produce the same effect as Spring Attack with extra stuff from the strike, such as uberdamage. Tiger Claw has them utilizing the Jump skill.
CBeyond 02-07-08, 05:25 PM	so the reason you cant use a martial maneuver with the spring attack feat is not because there is 'no time' to use it, but because you can only use the standard action called 'attack(melee)' with the feat and not an 'extraordiany' or 'supernatural' ability. :) Thanks for the CLEAR explanation, Rex! :teach: I stand corrected. :thumbsup:
Crimson_Concerto 02-07-08, 09:42 PM	Thanks for the CLEAR explanation, Rex! :teach: I stand corrected. :thumbsup:Wow, I'm sorry, but I have to ask. We said the same thing he said multiple times before. How was what he said any more clear? :confused:
mplindustries 02-08-08, 03:48 AM	Not only is it even less clear, its not even technically correct. It is indeed not an issue of having the right amount of time whatever nonsense that is, but I don't know anyone who made a point about time. The truth is, Spring Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#springAttack) allows one kind of action: an attack action. "When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed..." ToB Manuevers all have a listed Initiation Action. Some are standard actions, some are full round actions, still others swift or immediate actions. Not a one is listed as "One Attack Action." Just because you roll an attack does not mean you took the "attack action." It is that simple. Problem solved. Now, the reason this "clear explanation" is not correct is that while ToB manuevers are in fact extaordinary or supernatural, they have their own activation times that are clearly listed. They are not all standard actions, as would be suggested by his answer.
CBeyond 02-08-08, 04:22 AM	Wow, I'm sorry, but I have to ask. We said the same thing he said multiple times before. How was what he said any more clear? :confused:Actually no one before Rex made the point about "Use Supernatural Ability" and "Use Extraordinary Ability" being defined as standard actions separate from "Attack (Melee)" So therefore, no you did not say what he said.