ToB:B9S - A fix for White Raven Tactics? [Archive] - Wizards Community

ToB:B9S - A fix for White Raven Tactics? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Vyvyan Basterd
07-10-07, 01:23 PM Assumptions made specifically for this fix:

Certain actions have special limitations on the number of times they can be used in a round versus a character's turn.

Only one (non-quickened) spell can be cast per round.

Only one swift action can be taken during your turn.

An immediate action can be taken when its not your turn, even if a swift action has already been used that round, but eats up your next round's swift action.

You can attack a number of times up to a maximum that a full attack action would normally grant you.

You can move up to double your speed (unless running).

White Raven Tactics grants you a full round worth of actions if you've already acted in the round, but you cannot exceed any of the above limitations.

To balance this back a little I allow WRT to work on yourself (I had previuosly ruled that it would not).

So someone targeted by this could move in and attack on their original initiative. Then after being effected by White Raven Tactics, complete their full-round attack or even attack and move as long as they stay within all the limits set above.

Thoughts? Opinions?
tarkin
07-10-07, 01:53 PM Only one (non-quickened) spell can be cast per round.
False. VERY VERY False. I refer you to the Choker. I refer you to the spell Time Stop. I refer you to any of many similar things.

Only one swift action can be taken during your turn.
Only if you have NOT already taken an Immediate Action that turn.

An immediate action can be taken when its not your turn, even if a swift action has already been used that round, but eats up your next round's swift action.There has been some debate about this.

You can attack a number of times up to a maximum that a full attack action would normally grant you.
Ever hear of TWF? Or Rapid Shot? or AoO's

You can move up to double your speed (unless running).
Only if you did a double move or a Charge.
Vyvyan Basterd
07-10-07, 02:09 PM lots of angry-looking bold stuff

Assumptions made specifically for this fix:

What I was trying to say is that I was setting certain limitations for the purposes of this fix ONLY. I was not quoting rules.

1) How other spells and creature abilities play into this are irrelevant for the fix of a much-abused maneuver.

2) Immediate/Swift - don't need to clarify that Swift can't be used if you already used an Immediate action that turn as an Immediate Action is a type of Swift Action that can be taken when it is not your turn.

3) The limitation would take into account each character's full capabilities (TWF, Rapid Shot, Haste, etc). Although you do point out another limitation I would set. One (or a set number with Combat Reflexes) AoO per round.

4) I'm just setting a limitation to movement because White Raven Tactics can allow your character to receive more than one turn per round.

I will try to restate my fix:

Each turn you are granted either a full-round action or a standard and a move action - lets name this two actions. WRT can grant you multiple turns in the same round so you could end up with four actions or more if multiple WRT users are allied with you. The limitations list shows the limitations of actions in round that I aam proposing to reduce the abuse of WRT. It still grants you more than you could accomplish on your own, but stops a BBEG mage with four crusader cohorts from firing off five+ spells per round.
jaelis
07-10-07, 02:10 PM You can attack a number of times up to a maximum that a full attack action would normally grant you.

What about AoOs? You could in principle have quite a lot of them. Also, whirlwind attack breaks this, as does cleave/great cleave.

edit: I see your post, it makes a little more sense. So you mean that those limits only apply to the extra action obtained with WRT?
Vyvyan Basterd
07-10-07, 02:16 PM What about AoOs? You could in principle have quite a lot of them. Also, whirlwind attack breaks this, as does cleave/great cleave.

So, what are you trying to accomplish here, anyway?

See above for AoO.

Neither Whirlwind Attack nor (Great) Cleave breaks this fix of White Raven Tactics. Whirlwind Attack is a full-round attack action. If you used that on your original turn and White Raven Tactics allows you another turn in the same round, you would have no attacks remaining under my fix. (Great) Cleave allows extra Free attacks, they occur outside of your normal full attack action as they can occur when making a standard attack action or even an AoO.

I am trying to fix the abuse of the White Raven Tactics maneuver from Tome of Battle without outright banning of the maneuver while still attempting to make it useful enough to be a 3rd-level maneuver.
Nifft
07-10-07, 02:20 PM My favorite fix for WRT:

1/ It only works on an ally who isn't yourself.

2/ It has a range of 30 ft.

3/ It grants your ally an attack or a move (up to his speed), not a full round (or even standard) action.

Basically, it becomes a Quickened snake's swiftness.

Cheers, -- N
Vyvyan Basterd
07-10-07, 02:23 PM Basically, it becomes a Quickened snake's swiftness.

What book is snake's swiftness in? I'm not familiar with it.
Tempest Stormwind
07-10-07, 02:24 PM You can solve WRT's problems almost completely by saying it doesn't work on yourself.

Tarkin, where's this "debate" on immediate actions? The rules are clear and have been since the immediate action's introduction in the Expanded Psionics Handbook.
Vyvyan Basterd
07-10-07, 02:27 PM You can solve WRT's problems almost completely by saying it doesn't work on yourself.

I think it's more effectively used on the party caster (especially the Cleric). It allows for tactics like the above mentioned BBEG with WRT minions potentially casting a ridiculous number of spells in one round (to me any more than one non-quickened spell in a round is extremely powerful).
Vyvyan Basterd
07-11-07, 09:02 AM edit: I see your post, it makes a little more sense. So you mean that those limits only apply to the extra action obtained with WRT?

Exactly. They are limits to reign in how much can currently be done with WRT.
NoldorForce
07-11-07, 01:02 PM I'd suggest the caveat that any given creature can only be affected by it once per round.
OneWinged4ngel
07-11-07, 02:02 PM You can solve WRT's problems almost completely by saying it doesn't work on yourself.

I don't quite agree with you on this one, Tempest. Well, I do, but I would emphasize the "almost." I think that a 3rd level maneuver granting a full extra turn is extremely potent. Even if it doesn't work on yourself, it's one of those abilities that's considerably shinier than everything else in the toolbox (Seriously, exchanging a swift action for an extra turn? That's one of the shiniest uses of a swift action around) and generally that means that something's a bit too powerful.

Already, we see things like Celerity (admittedly immediate rather than swift) and Belt of Battle as some of the most powerful effects available. And those don't even grant a full turn.
Tempest Stormwind
07-11-07, 02:53 PM I don't quite agree with you on this one, Tempest. Well, I do, but I would emphasize the "almost."That was the point. It solves roughly 85% of the problems with it with a VERY simple fix. While 85% isn't perfect, it's still pretty damn good given the investment.

The biggest abuse that persists with that ruling is the multiple-White-Raven-adepts trick -- and god forbid that two teamwork-oriented characters are capable of supporting each other! (However, I do agree that in this context it could prove too powerful; the secondary fix without imposing sweeping changes to action types would be "A single creature can only be affected by this maneuver once per round.")
TheCobra
07-11-07, 02:55 PM As long as you don't let the warblade target herself, I don't see the problem with the maneuver. It's really powerful, yes, but warblades are supposed to be good. :D

Also, remember that you have mess around with initiative sometimes to use the ability properly. If the warblade goes first, she has to delay to give an ally that extra turn.
NoldorForce
07-11-07, 04:57 PM That was the point. It solves roughly 85% of the problems with it with a VERY simple fix. While 85% isn't perfect, it's still pretty damn good given the investment.I wouldn't say so. It fixes the infinite loops, but that's about all. You can still apply it to any of the nasty casters, for instance, and have them contribute as much as you would have.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Vyvyan Basterd 07-10-07, 01:23 PM	Assumptions made specifically for this fix: Certain actions have special limitations on the number of times they can be used in a round versus a character's turn. Only one (non-quickened) spell can be cast per round. Only one swift action can be taken during your turn. An immediate action can be taken when its not your turn, even if a swift action has already been used that round, but eats up your next round's swift action. You can attack a number of times up to a maximum that a full attack action would normally grant you. You can move up to double your speed (unless running). White Raven Tactics grants you a full round worth of actions if you've already acted in the round, but you cannot exceed any of the above limitations. To balance this back a little I allow WRT to work on yourself (I had previuosly ruled that it would not). So someone targeted by this could move in and attack on their original initiative. Then after being effected by White Raven Tactics, complete their full-round attack or even attack and move as long as they stay within all the limits set above. Thoughts? Opinions?
tarkin 07-10-07, 01:53 PM	Only one (non-quickened) spell can be cast per round. False. VERY VERY False. I refer you to the Choker. I refer you to the spell Time Stop. I refer you to any of many similar things. Only one swift action can be taken during your turn. Only if you have NOT already taken an Immediate Action that turn. An immediate action can be taken when its not your turn, even if a swift action has already been used that round, but eats up your next round's swift action.There has been some debate about this. You can attack a number of times up to a maximum that a full attack action would normally grant you. Ever hear of TWF? Or Rapid Shot? or AoO's You can move up to double your speed (unless running). Only if you did a double move or a Charge.
Vyvyan Basterd 07-10-07, 02:09 PM	lots of angry-looking bold stuff Assumptions made specifically for this fix: What I was trying to say is that I was setting certain limitations for the purposes of this fix ONLY. I was not quoting rules. 1) How other spells and creature abilities play into this are irrelevant for the fix of a much-abused maneuver. 2) Immediate/Swift - don't need to clarify that Swift can't be used if you already used an Immediate action that turn as an Immediate Action is a type of Swift Action that can be taken when it is not your turn. 3) The limitation would take into account each character's full capabilities (TWF, Rapid Shot, Haste, etc). Although you do point out another limitation I would set. One (or a set number with Combat Reflexes) AoO per round. 4) I'm just setting a limitation to movement because White Raven Tactics can allow your character to receive more than one turn per round. I will try to restate my fix: Each turn you are granted either a full-round action or a standard and a move action - lets name this two actions. WRT can grant you multiple turns in the same round so you could end up with four actions or more if multiple WRT users are allied with you. The limitations list shows the limitations of actions in round that I aam proposing to reduce the abuse of WRT. It still grants you more than you could accomplish on your own, but stops a BBEG mage with four crusader cohorts from firing off five+ spells per round.
jaelis 07-10-07, 02:10 PM	You can attack a number of times up to a maximum that a full attack action would normally grant you. What about AoOs? You could in principle have quite a lot of them. Also, whirlwind attack breaks this, as does cleave/great cleave. edit: I see your post, it makes a little more sense. So you mean that those limits only apply to the extra action obtained with WRT?
Vyvyan Basterd 07-10-07, 02:16 PM	What about AoOs? You could in principle have quite a lot of them. Also, whirlwind attack breaks this, as does cleave/great cleave. So, what are you trying to accomplish here, anyway? See above for AoO. Neither Whirlwind Attack nor (Great) Cleave breaks this fix of White Raven Tactics. Whirlwind Attack is a full-round attack action. If you used that on your original turn and White Raven Tactics allows you another turn in the same round, you would have no attacks remaining under my fix. (Great) Cleave allows extra Free attacks, they occur outside of your normal full attack action as they can occur when making a standard attack action or even an AoO. I am trying to fix the abuse of the White Raven Tactics maneuver from Tome of Battle without outright banning of the maneuver while still attempting to make it useful enough to be a 3rd-level maneuver.
Nifft 07-10-07, 02:20 PM	My favorite fix for WRT: 1/ It only works on an ally who isn't yourself. 2/ It has a range of 30 ft. 3/ It grants your ally an attack or a move (up to his speed), not a full round (or even standard) action. Basically, it becomes a Quickened snake's swiftness. Cheers, -- N
Vyvyan Basterd 07-10-07, 02:23 PM	Basically, it becomes a Quickened snake's swiftness. What book is snake's swiftness in? I'm not familiar with it.
Tempest Stormwind 07-10-07, 02:24 PM	You can solve WRT's problems almost completely by saying it doesn't work on yourself. Tarkin, where's this "debate" on immediate actions? The rules are clear and have been since the immediate action's introduction in the Expanded Psionics Handbook.
Vyvyan Basterd 07-10-07, 02:27 PM	You can solve WRT's problems almost completely by saying it doesn't work on yourself. I think it's more effectively used on the party caster (especially the Cleric). It allows for tactics like the above mentioned BBEG with WRT minions potentially casting a ridiculous number of spells in one round (to me any more than one non-quickened spell in a round is extremely powerful).
Vyvyan Basterd 07-11-07, 09:02 AM	edit: I see your post, it makes a little more sense. So you mean that those limits only apply to the extra action obtained with WRT? Exactly. They are limits to reign in how much can currently be done with WRT.
NoldorForce 07-11-07, 01:02 PM	I'd suggest the caveat that any given creature can only be affected by it once per round.
OneWinged4ngel 07-11-07, 02:02 PM	You can solve WRT's problems almost completely by saying it doesn't work on yourself. I don't quite agree with you on this one, Tempest. Well, I do, but I would emphasize the "almost." I think that a 3rd level maneuver granting a full extra turn is extremely potent. Even if it doesn't work on yourself, it's one of those abilities that's considerably shinier than everything else in the toolbox (Seriously, exchanging a swift action for an extra turn? That's one of the shiniest uses of a swift action around) and generally that means that something's a bit too powerful. Already, we see things like Celerity (admittedly immediate rather than swift) and Belt of Battle as some of the most powerful effects available. And those don't even grant a full turn.
Tempest Stormwind 07-11-07, 02:53 PM	I don't quite agree with you on this one, Tempest. Well, I do, but I would emphasize the "almost."That was the point. It solves roughly 85% of the problems with it with a VERY simple fix. While 85% isn't perfect, it's still pretty damn good given the investment. The biggest abuse that persists with that ruling is the multiple-White-Raven-adepts trick -- and god forbid that two teamwork-oriented characters are capable of supporting each other! (However, I do agree that in this context it could prove too powerful; the secondary fix without imposing sweeping changes to action types would be "A single creature can only be affected by this maneuver once per round.")
TheCobra 07-11-07, 02:55 PM	As long as you don't let the warblade target herself, I don't see the problem with the maneuver. It's really powerful, yes, but warblades are supposed to be good. :D Also, remember that you have mess around with initiative sometimes to use the ability properly. If the warblade goes first, she has to delay to give an ally that extra turn.
NoldorForce 07-11-07, 04:57 PM	That was the point. It solves roughly 85% of the problems with it with a VERY simple fix. While 85% isn't perfect, it's still pretty damn good given the investment.I wouldn't say so. It fixes the infinite loops, but that's about all. You can still apply it to any of the nasty casters, for instance, and have them contribute as much as you would have.