Total Defense and Combat Expertise [Archive] - Wizards Community

Total Defense and Combat Expertise [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Noodles2375
06-17-07, 09:32 PM So the FAQ answered my first question:

1) Can you use combat expertise while "fighting defensively" and, additionally, can you benefit from either or both without attacking.

So as a follow-up:
Can you use the total defense option with combat expertise?

It seems like the two would be mutually exclusive since total defense says you can't attack, but combat expertise requires you to attack.

Also, Can you use total defense and take a move or double move action?

Again, I think the answer is no, and by my reading of the PHP and SRD it seems like you shouldn't be able to. Does anyone have any answers or simply two cents they want to toss in?
StevenO
06-17-07, 09:39 PM No. You may not use Total Defense and Combat Expertise at the same time for the reasons stated.

I believe Total Defense requires a standard action so you could only get in a move action while doing so.
Kouk
06-18-07, 02:32 AM No. You may not use Total Defense and Combat Expertise at the same time for the reasons stated.

I believe Total Defense requires a standard action so you could only get in a move action while doing so.

Correct.
Despana
06-18-07, 03:38 AM To answer the other question, Total Defense is a standard action. Thus you can make one move, but not a double move, which requires more actions than you have available.
kalyb
06-18-07, 03:39 AM Actually, according to pg 140 of the PHB, the bonuses for fighting defensively and for Combat Expertise do stack. However, total defense does not stack with Combat Expertise or fighting defensively because you must declare an attack to use either of those (pg 142).
JadeSpider9643
06-18-07, 04:59 AM I've found that this question usually comes up when someone wants to boost their AC in anticipation of an attack but doesn't have a target to attack defensively within range. just delcare your attack on an adjacent empty space, just as if you were trying to attack an invisible foe. or attack a twig or rock or any kind of debris on the ground (i recommend the empty space though or your party is apt to label you "dirt slayer" or some such thing)
Noodles2375
06-18-07, 08:29 AM I've found that this question usually comes up when someone wants to boost their AC in anticipation of an attack but doesn't have a target to attack defensively within range. just delcare your attack on an adjacent empty space, just as if you were trying to attack an invisible foe. or attack a twig or rock or any kind of debris on the ground (i recommend the empty space though or your party is apt to label you "dirt slayer" or some such thing)

Thats actually exactly where it came up. One of my party members was trying to boost AC in a round when he didnt even come close to attacking. The follow up about total defense is just that it seems funny that you get more benefit from attacking while fighting def. and using combat expertise than you do from losing your standard action to take a total defense.
Nom
06-18-07, 08:35 PM Why would it seem weird that you gain better defense from using a specialised defensive feat than a weak ability available to everyone?

Generally, total defense is useful only when you don't actually have a weapon that can threaten opponents, and are otherwise pretty vulnerable. If you are armed, it's almost always better to use defensive fighting (or CE if you have it), since giving up threatening makes you an easy target for a wide variety of nasty manoeuvres. Similarly, there aren't many situations where total defense is better than Withdraw. Total defense = I'm in deep trouble, I have no options, and if someone doesn't come to my rescue in a round or two I'm done for.
Noodles2375
06-18-07, 09:23 PM Why would it seem weird that you gain better defense from using a specialised defensive feat than a weak ability available to everyone?

You know Nom, when you put it that way it makes a ton of sense. A fighter using combat expertise is an exceedingly well trained adversary, he should be able to fight defensively significantly better than Joe Schmuck elven wizard who is wielding a rapier but isn't really good at putting the business end into bad guys :)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Noodles2375 06-17-07, 09:32 PM	So the FAQ answered my first question: 1) Can you use combat expertise while "fighting defensively" and, additionally, can you benefit from either or both without attacking. So as a follow-up: Can you use the total defense option with combat expertise? It seems like the two would be mutually exclusive since total defense says you can't attack, but combat expertise requires you to attack. Also, Can you use total defense and take a move or double move action? Again, I think the answer is no, and by my reading of the PHP and SRD it seems like you shouldn't be able to. Does anyone have any answers or simply two cents they want to toss in?
StevenO 06-17-07, 09:39 PM	No. You may not use Total Defense and Combat Expertise at the same time for the reasons stated. I believe Total Defense requires a standard action so you could only get in a move action while doing so.
Kouk 06-18-07, 02:32 AM	No. You may not use Total Defense and Combat Expertise at the same time for the reasons stated. I believe Total Defense requires a standard action so you could only get in a move action while doing so. Correct.
Despana 06-18-07, 03:38 AM	To answer the other question, Total Defense is a standard action. Thus you can make one move, but not a double move, which requires more actions than you have available.
kalyb 06-18-07, 03:39 AM	Actually, according to pg 140 of the PHB, the bonuses for fighting defensively and for Combat Expertise do stack. However, total defense does not stack with Combat Expertise or fighting defensively because you must declare an attack to use either of those (pg 142).
JadeSpider9643 06-18-07, 04:59 AM	I've found that this question usually comes up when someone wants to boost their AC in anticipation of an attack but doesn't have a target to attack defensively within range. just delcare your attack on an adjacent empty space, just as if you were trying to attack an invisible foe. or attack a twig or rock or any kind of debris on the ground (i recommend the empty space though or your party is apt to label you "dirt slayer" or some such thing)
Noodles2375 06-18-07, 08:29 AM	I've found that this question usually comes up when someone wants to boost their AC in anticipation of an attack but doesn't have a target to attack defensively within range. just delcare your attack on an adjacent empty space, just as if you were trying to attack an invisible foe. or attack a twig or rock or any kind of debris on the ground (i recommend the empty space though or your party is apt to label you "dirt slayer" or some such thing) Thats actually exactly where it came up. One of my party members was trying to boost AC in a round when he didnt even come close to attacking. The follow up about total defense is just that it seems funny that you get more benefit from attacking while fighting def. and using combat expertise than you do from losing your standard action to take a total defense.
Nom 06-18-07, 08:35 PM	Why would it seem weird that you gain better defense from using a specialised defensive feat than a weak ability available to everyone? Generally, total defense is useful only when you don't actually have a weapon that can threaten opponents, and are otherwise pretty vulnerable. If you are armed, it's almost always better to use defensive fighting (or CE if you have it), since giving up threatening makes you an easy target for a wide variety of nasty manoeuvres. Similarly, there aren't many situations where total defense is better than Withdraw. Total defense = I'm in deep trouble, I have no options, and if someone doesn't come to my rescue in a round or two I'm done for.
Noodles2375 06-18-07, 09:23 PM	Why would it seem weird that you gain better defense from using a specialised defensive feat than a weak ability available to everyone? You know Nom, when you put it that way it makes a ton of sense. A fighter using combat expertise is an exceedingly well trained adversary, he should be able to fight defensively significantly better than Joe Schmuck elven wizard who is wielding a rapier but isn't really good at putting the business end into bad guys :)