Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Thorsbjorn 03-10-08, 01:19 AM	The Touch of Golden Ice feat in the Book of Exalted Deeds allows the touch of the creature to inflict the effects of golden ice, also from the Book of Exalted Deeds. The description of golden ice has says that it has a DC of 14. In the campaign I run a player has a monk with the Touch of Golden Ice feat. He's pointed out to me that at 21st level, a DC of 14 has little chance of affecting most creatures he encounters. I noticed in Monster Manual that most creatures that have poison have a DC equal to 10 + 1/2 hit dice + Constitution modifier. I was thinking about allowing the character's gold ice DC to use the standard poison formula. What do you think of the idea, and why? Thanks! :)
X0_Lt_0X 03-10-08, 01:24 AM	I dont got a problem with it. It'll boost the power somewhat.
runestar 03-10-08, 01:35 AM	Your monk will be benefiting from it with every hit he makes (that is 3 base, up to 2 with flurry, 1 from haste, and possibly more if you TWF). The opponent has to eventually roll a natural 1 against the flurry of saves he will be making each round...;)
Thorsbjorn 03-10-08, 01:39 AM	Your monk will be benefiting from it with every hit he makes (that is 3 base, up to 2 with flurry, 1 from haste, and possibly more if you TWF). The opponent has to eventually roll a natural 1 against the flurry of saves he will be making each round...;) That's a good point. He actually has 5 attacks per round since he's a 17th-level monk. If I did allow the gold ice DC to work like a creature's poison DC, would he get any benefit from the monk levels in the DC? After all, monk levels aren't racial hit dice.
X0_Lt_0X 03-10-08, 01:50 AM	The enemy have a 1/20 Chance to be effected by ToGI, and you get 5 attacks in a single round, then a enemy should be effected on average every 6 rounds... Ah thats why I love this feat.
runestar 03-10-08, 03:25 AM	That's a good point. He actually has 5 attacks per round since he's a 17th-level monk. If I did allow the gold ice DC to work like a creature's poison DC, would he get any benefit from the monk levels in the DC? After all, monk levels aren't racial hit dice. Does it matter? Your PC does not have any racial HD, does he? (If you are referring to that half celestial monk in another thread of yours regarding how VOP interacts with LA). But usually, poison dc should not scale with class lvs unless that class is the source of said poison ability. However, since the poison is from a feat, total HD should count (similar to devastating crit - though that may be an example of why scaling DCs are bad).
Tsuul 03-10-08, 03:50 AM	On any given full attack routine (assuming all strikes are a hit) it will go off at least once in the routine 22.6% of the time. 18.5% if you assume the last attack always misses. It deals damage based on the opponent's stats*, not the players. So verses demons/devils it will have a greater effect then say against Dire animals. *-a very bad mechanic, but whatever.
Thorsbjorn 03-10-08, 03:43 PM	Does it matter? Your PC does not have any racial HD, does he? (If you are referring to that half celestial monk in another thread of yours regarding how VOP interacts with LA). But usually, poison dc should not scale with class lvs unless that class is the source of said poison ability. However, since the poison is from a feat, total HD should count (similar to devastating crit - though that may be an example of why scaling DCs are bad). Yes, it's the same character and no, he doesn't have any racial hit dice. So if we used the formula 10 + 1/2 racial hit dice + Constitution modifier he'd be left with 10 + Constitution modifier. It's actually possible that his Constitution modifier is lower than 4 so that this method would lower the DC. If, however, I included his monk hit dice he'd have 18 + Constitution modifier, so the choice makes a substantial difference. It might be better to stick with the DC 14 anyway given how many attacks he has and the way that so many attacks increases the probability of someone failing a saving throw.
Beckettvampire 03-11-08, 12:54 AM	There is also a feat Ability Focus: Touch of Golden Ice (D.C. +2)you may allow him/her to take. If your nice maybe even Greater Ability Focus (D.C. +4), . . .
dman11235 03-11-08, 12:21 PM	Greater Ability Focus is an epic feat I believe. Anyway, I'd allow the primary damage and save to be based off of the 10+1/2+con formula, much like the Poison and Contagion spells (DC is spells DC initially, after that it's the normal DC). EDIT: and when it says HD, I add all HD in. I don't believe it ever says that the default is racial HD only, but some abilities specifically state that they are racial only. And I change some of them to make the ability actually useful.
Tordak 03-12-08, 03:26 PM	It might be a bit much, but going with a base of 11 + con bonus or the like would probably work well. Your player would have a decent opportunity at upgrading it's DC while remaining resonable in comparaison to the original feat. Like it's been pointed out before, the fact that the relevant enemy will be hit by golden ice a whole lot of time every rounds might make this feat quite powerful for such an easy-to-get feat.
dman11235 03-12-08, 03:46 PM	Think about it though: there are many ways to make sure you don't fail on that 1: Steadfast Endurance, Pride Domain, actual luck, and high level knights. For the save to be failed, you need to roll a 1 on that save. Generally, your 1's are spread out, and you have a much smaller chance than 5% to roll the 1 on saves. Also, note how spells with saves tend to not do well at higher levels: DC 19+ability isn't usually all that much at 20. Most of my characters need at most a 5 to make that. And that's with the primary stat. Also keep in mind that it is an exalted feat, meaning you need to uphold the epitome of good to keep it. I just don't see it as overpowering to have the initial DC at 10+1/2 HD+con. EDIT: precedence for this sort of thing: spells such as Poison and Contagion, monsters with a disease special attack (dire rats have the initial DC at 10+1/2 HD+con, after that it's the normal DC), monsters with poison special attacks (DC is 10+1/2 HD+con usually, which can be more than the poison you'd get to put on your weapon).
Tsuul 03-12-08, 04:49 PM	Think about it though: there are many ways to make sure you don't fail on that 1: Steadfast Endurance, Pride Domain, actual luck, and high level knights.Those things are exceptionally rare on NPCs. Generally, your 1's are spread out, and you have a much smaller chance than 5% to roll the 1 on saves.Casinos make lots of money based on that faulty logic. After rolling 50 ones for attack rolls, your odds of rolling a one on the very next die is still 5%. Also, note how spells with saves tend to not do well at higher levels: DC 19+ability isn't usually all that much at 20. Most of my characters need at most a 5 to make that.PCs or NPCs ? Plus not every encounter will be one level 20 individual, some will be lots of smaller guys. precedence for this sort of thing: spells such as Poison and Contagion, monsters with a disease special attack (dire rats have the initial DC at 10+1/2 HD+con, after that it's the normal DC), monsters with poison special attacks (DC is 10+1/2 HD+con usually, which can be more than the poison you'd get to put on your weapon).Monsters also get "At will" abilities that are not limited per day. These abilities in the hands of a player are worth a gigga-ton more then in the hands of a creature whose existence totals 3 rounds in a campaign. ToGI would be one example of an "at will" ability nerfed down.
runestar 03-12-08, 09:07 PM	Also, note how spells with saves tend to not do well at higher levels: DC 19+ability isn't usually all that much at 20. Most of my characters need at most a 5 to make that. Your mage isn't casting 5 spells/round and forcing the enemy to make that many saves. Basically, low odds are there to compensate for high probability of said event occurring.
dman11235 03-12-08, 09:30 PM	My point on the luck thing was: if on average 1/20 is going to be a 1, you aren't making 20 saves in a roll usually. I'm just saying what I've observed in play. Yes the odds are still 1/20, but does that actually happen? No, not really, for only your saves it's still dependant on all of your rolls. In order for there to be a 1 on a save, it can't come when you roll for an attack roll, for instance. It's sort of a virtual chance I guess. The actual chance is still 5%. And basically, all I was saying was that I don't find it unbalancing for an exalted feat to give this good a bonus. And it's still low odds (DC 20+con@20, con is almost never the primary stat, usually secondary or less) for the initial, targeting fortitude, which many monsters have a high save in, especially at that level. The way I have it it's still DC 14 for the secondary. The precendence was just saying that there are abilities that use this mechanic in the game already, not using those as a balance stick. @runestar: How is your mage firing off 5 spells per round? I can see 4: twinned+quicken really low level spells.
runestar 03-12-08, 10:40 PM	@runestar: How is your mage firing off 5 spells per round? I can see 4: twinned+quicken really low level spells. He is not. That is why the wizard is justified on having a good save dc for any spell he does loose off. While quickening and twinning your spells will increase how many you can loose off, it also degrades their quality. For example, a quickened phantasmal killer will have a DC poorer than a 8th lv save-or-die spell. And he is limited in how often he can accomplish this. Conversely, you must consider that the monk will be dealing golden ice ravage damage on every hit he makes. Past lv15, that is 5 attacks on a full-round (3 normal, 2 flurry), more if he has haste, TWFing etc. This is why magic weapons/effects with effects that occur on a failed save are still fairly popular even though the dcs suck (spell lv + mod from min stat). Because of the sheer number of attacks a fighter will be making with it over the course of the campaign, a few will punch right through all though high saves eventually. And it's still low odds (DC 20+con@20, con is almost never the primary stat, usually secondary or less) for the initial, targeting fortitude, which many monsters have a high save in, especially at that level. The way I have it it's still DC 14 for the secondary. At epic lvs, fort saves average at 25, so unless your con is 22 or greater, it really makes no diff whether your dc is 25 or 14. My point on the luck thing was: if on average 1/20 is going to be a 1, you aren't making 20 saves in a roll usually. I'm just saying what I've observed in play. Yes the odds are still 1/20 I have had games where PCs rolled natural 1s 5-6 times in a row. Maybe the dice is just jinxed in my campaigns or something...:P
Thorsbjorn 03-12-08, 10:48 PM	There is also a feat Ability Focus: Touch of Golden Ice (D.C. +2)you may allow him/her to take. If your nice maybe even Greater Ability Focus (D.C. +4), . . . That is such a great idea that I traveled back in time to Sunday and mentioned that idea to the player in my response to his email! :D Seriously though, I have been thinking about allowing an Epic Ability focus, and I mentioned that and Ability Focus in my email to him Sunday. I also got the idea for a Greater Ability Focus, and mentioned that. The three combined would add +6 to his DC, raising it to 20. Probably at epic levels that's not all that great anyway, but I'm not sure that I want to allow him to use his monk levels. The Monster Manual on page 313 specifically says that poison DCs use the creature's racial hit dice. I asked him in my email what Constitution score his character has but he hasn't responded. It's quite possible that with 10 + Con modifier he wouldn't get anything better than a 14 anyway. I think several of you have made a good point that it's essentially an at-will ability he can use up to 5 times a round, so that even if the average opponent does fail only 5% of the time it's still going to prove useful.
risner 03-13-08, 12:39 AM	I was thinking about allowing the character's gold ice DC to use the standard poison formula. What do you think of the idea, and why? Thanks! :) Unneeded. At DC14 and high level, you are basically getting at minimum four to six 5% chance of hitting them with it. Making the DC higher isn't needed and shouldn't be raise due to balance issues.
dman11235 03-13-08, 10:29 AM	I have had games where PCs rolled natural 1s 5-6 times in a row. Maybe the dice is just jinxed in my campaigns or something...:P And I've seen three 20/20/confirms in three combats in a row. The first two by the same person. But I've also seen people go 50+ rolls without a 1, heck, even 50+ rolls without anything higher than a 15 (same person that got the two insta-kills. She's quite unlucky). And I've also seen people go 50+ saves without less than a 5 on them, but they would roll lower than a 5 regularly, if averaging the attack rolls and skill checks into it. @Thors: When a monster race description says HD, I add class levels in there too. It makes the ability actually not sucky! Also, I just came up with this houserule after seeing that there is no Epic Ability Focus: Epic Ability Focus exists and is an additional +4 bonus (not +2, gotta make it worth epic, and others like this (epic spell focus, epic spell penetration) are double their non-epic counter-part), and replaces Improved Death Attack, Death Arrow, Stunning Fist, etc. because you have to choose an ability anyway. @risner: I don't see any balance issues. Just because one or two classes benefit greatly from a feat (a fairly underpowered class) doesn't mean that the feat is overpowering.
risner 03-13-08, 12:06 PM	@risner: I don't see any balance issues. Just because one or two classes benefit greatly from a feat (a fairly underpowered class) doesn't mean that the feat is overpowering. You don't understand the point of balance then. You balance things by who gains the MOST out of a feat. So if a class benefits greatly, then it is balanced by the class that benefits most and you ignore the classes that don't benefit from the feat.
Damned slayer 03-13-08, 04:27 PM	Don't have the book at work but when is this triggering? would monster hitting you with natural attack triggering poison or YOU have to touch THEM?? because I don't think it's specified where the poison is on your body so anytime they touch your skin should trigger it even more possibilities of being broken if it scales up just get some fast healing in a bar fight and wait that they all die trying to hit you with punches :) BTW things usually immune to poison are not immune to this so it perfectly represent the exalted aspect
dman11235 03-13-08, 05:24 PM	You need to make a touch attack to do it, or anytime you strike with a natural attack. @risner: Greater Manyshot. Scouts recieve a huge benefit from this feat, but monks, most all spellcasters, rangers, martial adepts, psionic classes, martial classes, they all don't recieve much at all from this feat. Does that make it broken? No, not really. Same issue with this. Monks recieve a great benefit from the feat, but most other classes do not. That does not necessarily mean it's overpowered. Now, when balanced on it's own ignoring the classes that recieve benefit from it, and judging it on its own merits, I'd say that at the flat DC 14, it's about as powerful as a mediocre to decent non-exalted feat. Giving it the scaling brings it up in power to a decent exalted feat. You must keep in mind that it is exalted, and as such holds high expectations RPing wise, and acting even neutral can lose you the benefits of the feat.
nameneeded 03-13-08, 05:40 PM	ToGI works when you touch your taerget not when they touch you. We have always played it to be a skin contact thing. DC14 sounds low but with the feat (isn't there also a feat that can raise the dc of this thats stackable?) to raise it to 16 is quite tough. It shouldn't be felt that its too low because that evil 20th lvl barbarian with a +18Fort save can easily shrug it of. What about the non high fort save guys like mages? Thats where even DC 14 becomes a concern. Don't forget it is considered a poison and thus anything immune to poison should be immune it ToGI as well. In our game the GM had a custom template for me that raised it +2 each lvl fot 5 lvls. Everything I fight feels its effects. I have paralyzed many a foe with it in 1 round. So be warned it can change the dynamic of your game.
risner 03-13-08, 08:09 PM	would monster hitting you with natural attack triggering poison or YOU have to touch THEM?? All touch attacks require you to make a touch attack, they will not trigger when someone touches you. @risner: Greater Manyshot. Scouts recieve a huge benefit from this feat, but monks, most all spellcasters, rangers, martial adepts, psionic classes, martial classes, they all don't recieve much at all from this feat. Strawman argument. Greater Manyshot was balanced by who can use it, not by who can't.
dman11235 03-13-08, 08:53 PM	I was not using it as an argument, I was using it as an example of why your previous argument doesn't work. I was using it to show that you cannot make the argument that it is overpowered because one class gets a better benefit than another. You would see that if you continued to read. Balancing this feat by itself, how would you rate it? Ignore the fact that monks get a significant boost by it compared to other classes. Focus on what this feat requires and what it gives. I would rate it as below power level. Mainly because it is exalted, and only affects evil creatures. Elementals, constructs, plants, animals, vermin, magical beasts all are typically neutral and would not be affected. You need to uphold good to its highest standard, and act that way all the time. No evil, not even many neutral acts allowed. You see a crippled orphan you go help it, no dilly-dallying. So, giving it a small boost in power (by small I mean good sized), you bring it up to a powerful exalted feat. Bring it down somehow (but not too much, hows about fort save +3 required? Seems in the spirit and reasonable) and you've got yourself a decent feat. I thought getting it at level 1 was a bit too much anyway. Level 3 or higher seems right. Oh, and GMS couldn't have been balanced for use by scouts. Scouts didn't exist when it was made.
Cifer 03-14-08, 12:18 AM	@dman I was using it to show that you cannot make the argument that it is overpowered because one class gets a better benefit than another. Noone made that argument. You misread risner's statement. Seriously, what rolls you make in between has nothing to do with statistics and statistics are the only thing balancing can refer to - after all, I've never read things like "This class feature is available only to those players who regularly roll 10 or lower on five consecutive rolls". One has to assume there are no loaded dice and no people with more luck than the usual. I'd go for the 14 DC and be done with it. It's basically the same as good old Disruption - as soon as you reach higher levels, you just hope for a 1 rolled on a save.
Tsuul 03-14-08, 04:12 AM	Oh, and GMS couldn't have been balanced for use by scouts. Scouts didn't exist when it was made.There's a class in the PHB that can get just as much use out of GMS as a scout can. :D
emeraldstreak 03-14-08, 04:38 AM	Linking ToGI to Con is obviously a good way to bring it to 3.5 standard, however, even at low DC ToGI is extremely powerful. It's a ravage, and so it receives an additional damage bonus equal to its victim's Cha bonus, plus another bonus if said victim is undead/evil outsider/etc. For instance, a Pit Fiend rolling a natural 1 would suffer an average of 13.5 dexterity damage on the first save, or 17 dex damage on the second save if it comes to that. Increasing DC to 10+1/2lvl+Con will let PCs to reach DCs in the 20s, even powerful evil outsiders will have more than 5% to fail such DCs, and undead, lacking Con, are very vulnerable (i.e. Nightcrawler, the highest CR undead in MM, has +12 on Fort). Mind you, ToGI can be inflicted with a mere touch attack, bypassing the natural armor of monsters, and natural armor is very often a major component of monster AC.
emeraldstreak 03-14-08, 04:42 AM	Don't forget it is considered a poison and thus anything immune to poison should be immune it ToGI as well. Not true. ToGI is a ravage, and ravages specifically trump general poison immunity of evil creatures.
risner 03-14-08, 09:53 AM	I was not using it as an argument, I was using it as an example of why your previous argument doesn't work. You are not showing anything to do with my previous argument. My point is any feat must be balanced by who can use it best. If you make a feat that Monks would die to have, then you must balance it based on the consideration that only monks will take the feat and not let any thoughts along the lines of "only monks gain benefit from this so I can power it up" line of thinking. Linking ToGI to Con is obviously a good way to bring it to 3.5 standard It is already 3.5, as It was published in BoED (a 3.5 book.) Not true. ToGI is a ravage, and ravages specifically trump general poison immunity of evil creatures. Interesting, book and page ref?
dman11235 03-14-08, 10:19 AM	I guess I misread your post risner, sorry. Well, I've said why I feel it should be (wouldn't be unbalanced) 10+1/2 HD+con for the initial (just the initial, secondary would still be a DC 14). I guess it is time to agree to disagree, as the same arguments are starting to pop up.
runestar 03-14-08, 10:34 AM	Well, I've said why I feel it should be (wouldn't be unbalanced) 10+1/2 HD+con for the initial (just the initial, secondary would still be a DC 14). Considering that the secondary save will be made 1 minute later, which is longer than what most combats will take anyways, leaving the dc at 14 does not seem like a big deal (because few, if any foes are expected to have to make the save anyways since they will rarely live that long). Conversely, heightening the initial save dc has the most significant impact, because all foes you attack will have to save against it - no running away from it.
Damned slayer 03-14-08, 11:23 AM	don't know the page but Book of Exaleted Deeds something around p20
dman11235 03-14-08, 05:44 PM	Also thinking in terms of evil parties facing exalted people: the evil will have to save 1 minute later (unless you kill them or they neutralize it). And like I said, it follows a similar mechanic to Contagion and Poison and many monster's special attacks.
Naderion 03-14-08, 05:47 PM	"Do not eat the yellow snow."
emeraldstreak 03-14-08, 10:20 PM	It is already 3.5, as It was published in BoED (a 3.5 book.) Yes it's 3.5, but it is not up to 3.5 standard in poison DC presentation. Interesting, book and page ref? BoED p.35
Fallenangel359 03-15-08, 01:44 PM	I'd like to point out that golden ice feat doesn't have a save at all. They are automatically afflicted by it. The poison-like version of it is save or be afflicted, the feat version is auto afflicted.
Tsuul 03-15-08, 04:24 PM	The poison-like version of it is save or be afflicted, the feat version is auto afflicted.The feat "ravages" you, not "afflicts". If someone poisoned me, but I completely shrugged off its effects, I would still tell you I was poisoned. When you get a polio shot, you are getting a mini version of the disease that your body can easily shrug off. The doctor can still take credit in "afflicting" you with it. Dick Clark was seemingly unaffected by the ravages of time, but he still underwent its ravages. There is a save. The description of the ToGI ravage says so. Extra credit question: What about the secondary save?