Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Thief_of_Hope 07-03-07, 12:31 PM	All right, my friend and I were trying to figure out, with the feat Touch of Golden Ice from the Book of Exalted Deeds, does the enemy get ravaged by the golden ice just from when you hit/touch/whatever them, or do they get the DC 14 Fortitude save described in the Ravages and Afflictions section, as if you had nailed them with a dose of Golden Ice? My thinking was that the wording of the feat, "...is ravaged by golden ice", indicated that the golden ice was taking effect on contact, without a Fortitude save. We weren't quite sure though, so any help would be most appreciated.
Majick 07-03-07, 01:52 PM	The enemy get the save. This issue came up before when i asked if my (yet to be created) Vow of Poverty monk could do a Flurry of Touches (tm) instead of a flurry of blows, but yeah, you can't do what i wanted to do (the many touches thing) and they get a save each time
tarkin 07-03-07, 02:02 PM	I see no reason to disallow a flurry of touches.
Majick 07-03-07, 02:06 PM	I see no reason to disallow a flurry of touches. I asked the question before and recieved a resounding NO as a melee touch is a standard action, and that apparently means you can't use flurry of blows or full attack... didn't make sense to me either
Breetai 07-03-07, 02:07 PM	Umm... 'cause ToGI is Broke Otherwise?
tarkin 07-03-07, 02:16 PM	I asked the question before and recieved a resounding NO as a melee touch is a standard action, and that apparently means you can't use flurry of blows or full attack... didn't make sense to me either That is bullcrap. A melee touch is not a standard action. Casting a spell that INCLUDES a melee touch attack is a standard action. Like say Shocking Grasp. Your DM made a House Rule. A melee touch attack is just an attack, like any other attack. You do them EVERY time you make an unarmed trip attempt. If your BAB is 6, then you can make two of them as a full attack action. If you are a Monk, you are allowed to Flurry with them. -------- As for Touch of Golden Ice from BoED, that is low value feat. The save does not scale, it is a single set value, which is so low, it is not a problem. It does not even do Con damage, just Dex. The evil creature should have killed and eaten you before you get the 3 succesfull hits plus failed saves neccessary to paralyze them.
Neutronium_Dragon 07-03-07, 02:35 PM	> as a melee touch is a standard action Uh, no. A melee touch (attack) is part of whatever action you're using to make the attack. If you're using a full attack action then you can make multiple touch attacks with it just like you can make multiple normal attacks with it. You wouldn't be able to make multiple touch attacks with a Flurry of Blows because a Flurry of Blows specifies what you can do with it and doesn't include that option. On the other hand, any of the unarmed strikes which you land as part of that Flurry of Blows will trigger the golden ice.
tarkin 07-03-07, 02:55 PM	Neutronium_Dragon gave a much better reason. Monk says "unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons". The question is does an unarmed touch attack count as an unarmed strike. That is debateble, in my opinion. I can see a DM ruling no, but I can also see a DM ruling yes.
BOBB 07-04-07, 01:34 PM	My take on it would be if you punch someone , you can have considered that you touched them . In the absence of a clear ruling against , i think a monks flurry should count as touch attacks for the purpose of this feat . As always though , your DM is the final arbiter .
Fallenangel359 07-04-07, 01:44 PM	Technically, if you go by literal wording of the feat, it says they are ravaged by golden ice... it doesn't say they make a fort save, or are ravaged by the ravage So technically, no save.... My group came down to a fair houserule that is an inbetween of the 2. yes they make the fort save, but its not dc 14, its dc 10+1/2 hd+con mod of person with the feat, and it does 1d6+opponents cha mod of dex damage Every feat in existance that says it hits someone with an effect says what the save is. Example, stunning fist fortsave or be stunned bardic music willsave or be suggested then there are tons of spells that describe how they are negated Every thing states how it functions, if it has a save... golden ice just says "is ravaged by" autosuccess, unless you houserule otherwise
Tsuul 07-04-07, 02:34 PM	Technically, if you go by literal wording of the feat, it says they are ravaged by golden ice... it doesn't say they make a fort save, or are ravaged by the ravageAnd if you gave me poison, but I survived its effects (made my save) I would be 100% correct in telling people that you poisoned me. Your opponents get a save.
Fallenangel359 07-04-07, 02:41 PM	Ah well... Now the question is, how do people frequently houserule this feat? I think the 10+1/2hd+conmod is totally fair 14 just... is broke beyond belief at level 1, and pathetic at 20... almost every feat in existance scales to some degree... cleave for example scales with damage... powerattack scales with attack roll up to 5, which is still enough at 20, metamagics scale (still 8th level spell is same as 1st level spell), ironwill scales with base saves... etc etc Unscaling feats is just...awkward