Touch of Golden Ice/monk [Archive] - Wizards Community

Touch of Golden Ice/monk [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
The_argumentative_Player
08-09-07, 09:02 AM Will soon be Starting Paizos Savage Tide adventures and one of the PCs has put forward a human monk character based on feats taken from the book of exalted deeds.

Feat 1 Sacred Vow -Vow of Povity
Feat 2 Touch of Golden Ice

Touch of golden Ice causes touched evil creatures to be ravaged by 'Golden Ice'
Golden Ice = Ravage (Good Poisons)
Type = Contact
Save DC = 14
Initial damage = 1d6 dex
Secondry damage = 2d6 dex

My questions are:
1) Does this work every time the monk touches someone evil with skin (ie hand/feet/bald head/etc)?

2) At higher levels (ie 1st) when the monk gets flurry of blows and DC14 checks are still above a 10 on a d20 (ie 50%+ failure rate) for most creatures and dexterities are usually lowin the (10-12 range) is this feat not too powerful? In fact just shaking hands with some NPC's could be fatal to them!!

3) At Higher levels still would this attack no matter how casual (ie shake hands with orcus, kiss a succubus despite the fact that they are more than likely to make their saves) would this attack be detectable?

Ok so '0' Dexterity = paralyzation and helpless not death. Yea right the rest of the party are going to let it lay there until it recovers
Fallenangel359
08-09-07, 09:20 AM its questionable wether they get a save at all

First off, it says they are ravaged by, not they make a save or are ravaged by.
Second off, if it did have a save, as a supernatural ability, like all exalted feats, it is no longer being a physical object which is the ravage, the save would be 10+1/2 HD+relative modifier, which in this case, is constitution, and would scale nicely with level.

The first interpruptation my group decided is too violently powerful. Your interuptation is pathetically weak at high level, and overpowered at L1. The 2nd interuptation is a balanced, and fair way of doing it.
Fallenangel359
08-09-07, 09:23 AM Also, the party has no actual reason to coup de gra the paralyzed opponent in most situations. The opponent is considered defeated, and is disabled for 24 hours. They get the xp, can loot the paralyzed iced over body, and move on.

Also remember, it doesn't work on neutral foes... which there are a lot of....
Ananvil
08-09-07, 09:44 AM Also, the party has no actual reason to coup de gra the paralyzed opponent in most situations. The opponent is considered defeated, and is disabled for 24 hours. They get the xp, can loot the paralyzed iced over body, and move on.

Also remember, it doesn't work on neutral foes... which there are a lot of....

Sure they do, they're evil and a threat to everything good. They fought them for a reason, I'm sure.

My question, is that if a Monk Grapples someone and pins them, are they 'ravaged' every round?
The_argumentative_Player
08-09-07, 10:04 AM I agree that my interpretation is overpowerfull at 1st and very weak at higher levels, that was the point. I thought that it would be too game unbalancing at low levels and a bit pointless later on (still a 1 in 20 chance after 13th lvl)

As for the saving throw why list it in the book as DC14?
Your version with a save for the average PC at 1st lvl (from the stats I have already) would be 10+1 (lvl)+2(16 con) = 13
and at 10th lvl 10+5+between(+2 and +8)= 17-23 (Dependant on additions to abilities due to lvl and class lvl increase [see voluntary poverty]) (does not include any feats by the way).
This still give a fighter between a 7 and 13 on the die save (I think, not sure ) throw.

Also, the party has no actual reason to coup de gra the paralyzed opponent in most situations. The opponent is considered defeated, and is disabled for 24 hours. They get the xp, can loot the paralyzed iced over body, and move on. Also remember, it doesn't work on neutral foes... which there are a lot of....

Not if I know this group, dead is the only way to leave the opposition, that way they dont seek revenge! (their attitude)

This series of modules takes place with a LOT of evil areas, towns and alike not just Kill evil taking place not just on the prime material plane.
The_Shaman
08-09-07, 10:15 AM Not if I know this group, dead is the only way to leave the opposition, that way they dont seek revenge! (their attitude)

Someone with that modus operandi has their grubby mitts on EXALTED feats? Shee-yesh! Did they bother to read what exalted characters, you know, act like? Champions of Valor is a lot more down-to-earth than BoED, and it still considers such an attitude unseemly for good characters (not exalted, good).
Hsien
08-09-07, 10:18 AM The DC for the Save is flat 14, per the description of Glden Ice and does not have any modifier to it.

Golden Ice is powerful at low levels, but consdier that the VoP monks abilities are not that great at this point so there is some balance there.

By the time where Golden Ice is basically negligible, 1 in 20 chance, the VoP abilities have made up for that reduction...plus there's always that chance and with multiple attacks/flurry..it's bound to happen.

Note:
Our group had a similar VoP Monk w/ Golden Ice who is considering re-training it because we started at 10th, now about 15th, and it's never worked yet.
He keeps hoping though.
Iarmeister
08-09-07, 10:20 AM As for the saving throw why list it in the book as DC14?
Your version with a save for the average PC at 1st lvl (from the stats I have already) would be 10+1 (lvl)+2(16 con) = 13...

Just fyi...16 Con score nets a +3 bonus, not +2. So, the DC would, in fact, be 14.
risner
08-09-07, 10:25 AM Feat 1 Sacred Vow -Vow of Povity
Feat 2 Touch of Golden Ice

Save DC = 14

My questions are:
1) Does this work every time the monk touches someone evil with skin (ie hand/feet/bald head/etc)?

2) At higher levels (ie 1st) ... is this feat not too powerful?

3) At Higher levels still would this attack no matter how casual ... would this attack be detectable?

Remember, those exalted feats are hard to play. They require being more "good" than Paladin good or they lose the feats until an atonement at least or forever (iirc) in some situations.

1) Yes

2) Quite the contrary, at higher levels, the Touch of Golden Ice feat becomes increasingly irrelevant because the DC14 fort save becomes more and more easily passed by NPC's and monsters.

3) Again, since the required save is so easy, it becomes useless beyond around 6 to 10th level.

Also, the player with the exalted feats might (read: should) take offense to other PC's killing off his helpless Iced opponents. We go back to the "more good than Paladin good" and if he stands idle while other PC's kill off helpless insanely evil NPC's, he should start trying to prevent that.
The_argumentative_Player
08-09-07, 10:29 AM Just fyi...16 Con score nets a +3 bonus, not +2. So, the DC would, in fact, be 14.

At work at the moment could not remember if it went 15/16 +2 or 14/15+2...sorry
The_argumentative_Player
08-09-07, 10:41 AM Remember, those exalted feats are hard to play. They require being more "good" than Paladin good or they lose the feats until an atonement at least or forever (iirc) in some situations.

1) Yes

2) Quite the contrary, at higher levels, the Touch of Golden Ice feat becomes increasingly irrelevant because the DC14 fort save becomes more and more easily passed by NPC's and monsters.

3) Again, since the required save is so easy, it becomes useless beyond around 6 to 10th level.

Also, the player with the exalted feats might (read: should) take offense to other PC's killing off his helpless Iced opponents. We go back to the "more good than Paladin good" and if he stands idle while other PC's kill off helpless insanely evil NPC's, he should start trying to prevent that.

1) Thanks thats what I thought
also I would think that this is a constant not volunatary action

2) I was being sarcastic hence (1st Lvl) as a high level

3) thats what I was thinking but does the person/creature touched detect the 'attack'. It could get interesting ie while shaking the hand of the 'Big Benefactor' he senses your attempt to inflict damage upon him!!

In his defence the monk player has already stated that he would take offence at this and would try to do his best to protect 'defeated' foes, but I have a feeling that he is on to a beating to nothing with the rest of the party if they play according to usual form.
Tsuul
08-09-07, 10:49 AM thats what I was thinking but does the person/creature touched detect the 'attack'. It could get interesting ie while shaking the hand of the 'Big Benefactor' he senses your attempt to inflict damage upon him!!Yes, it is a blatant attack.

And he had better watch his hands at low levels. The town guard does not like attacks made against it's citizenry. It is very easy to get a group of "good" guys after the player.

I would change the feat to be a 1/day swift action to imbue all your attacks until the start of your next turn to "ravage" people. DC 10 + 1/2 character level + cha bonus. Now it isn't so strong at low levels and isn't useless at high levels.

I would also change how the ravage deals damage based on the opponent's beneficial modifier/stat to the player's stat, but that is just me.
Steely_Dan
08-09-07, 11:04 AM Also, ToGI is such a pain for the DM – having to re-calculate an enemy's AC, Ref, ranged attacks etc every time they are ravaged.

I would probably not take this feat just to give the DM a break.
tarkin
08-09-07, 11:08 AM I disagree.

1. It is NOT weak at high levels.

2. When you make it something that scales, then it DOES become something too strong.

Here is my reasoning.
At low levels you don't get many attacks. two at first level. So assuming you hit once, they have to make a highish save to survive that round.

But at higher levels you have more attacks. Monks get 5 attacks by 20th level, and honestly 3 or four should hit (even without things like boots of Haste or natural weapons which can easily boost that up to 5 or 6 hits)

Considering a natural 1 always fails a save. That means that your Golden Ice has at least a 15% chance of working every round, even against a high powereded being.

That is more than enough to make it worth a feat.

When you start to upp the DC, then at higher levels you begin to double dip - hard to resist AND lots of extra attacks, making it very likely that no one will every last an entire round agaisnt you without failing a save.

Now, I might be willing to do something like up the save only if you are doing a single attack.
RobbyPants
08-09-07, 11:18 AM Also, ToGI is such a pain for the DM – having to re-calculate an enemy's AC, Ref, ranged attacks etc every time they are ravaged.
The trick is to remember the base numbers, and just apply a penalty to them all based on the Dex damage. The only tricky part then becomes if someone has a higher Dex mod than what their armor would allow.

So, if someone has a Ref save of +8, and they take 6 points of Dex damage, rather than reclculating it, just give them a -3 penalty.
Steely_Dan
08-09-07, 11:24 AM The trick is to remember the base numbers, and just apply a penalty to them all based on the Dex damage. The only tricky part then becomes if someone has a higher Dex mod than what their armor would allow.

So, if someone has a Ref save of +8, and they take 6 points of Dex damage, rather than reclculating it, just give them a -3 penalty.

I know, but it is still a little…niggling.

Just like THACO was easy, but annoying.
Tsuul
08-09-07, 11:27 AM I saw this feat in action at pre epic levels against demons and/or devils (high cha enemies) it owned, even with the dc14. Vs normal foes with maybe a +1 or +2 cha modifier, it would be way more hassle then its worth.
Tedronai
08-09-07, 04:02 PM Note that if the player manages to get Vow of Poverty at 1st level, he/she also gets a bonus exalted feat at that level (this fact is hidden in a text block as only humans can qualify in most cases - I think there might be 1 or 2 exceptions out there but that's it). I'd suggest Nymph's Kiss for those wonderful skill points right from the start.

If you're concerned with the combination of multiple hits and a high DC at higher levels (from making the DC scale to lower it at early levels without simply gimping the feat), could make it a swift action to imbue your attacks until your fist successful hit or the start of your next turn (meaning that if you missed all attacks, or simply didn't make any, that it would still be available on attacks of opportunity). It could then affect a maximum of one opponent per round and only once each round, have a relevant DC at higher levels and a manageable one at lower levels, and not cause the risk of accidentally inciting respected townsfolk (though if there were a knowledgable sage available in the town, demonstrating that the injury to that individual was not actually the monk's doing, but a result of their immoral actions should not be particularly difficult; decent ranks in Knowledge-Religion should suffice for this)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
The_argumentative_Player 08-09-07, 09:02 AM	Will soon be Starting Paizos Savage Tide adventures and one of the PCs has put forward a human monk character based on feats taken from the book of exalted deeds. Feat 1 Sacred Vow -Vow of Povity Feat 2 Touch of Golden Ice Touch of golden Ice causes touched evil creatures to be ravaged by 'Golden Ice' Golden Ice = Ravage (Good Poisons) Type = Contact Save DC = 14 Initial damage = 1d6 dex Secondry damage = 2d6 dex My questions are: 1) Does this work every time the monk touches someone evil with skin (ie hand/feet/bald head/etc)? 2) At higher levels (ie 1st) when the monk gets flurry of blows and DC14 checks are still above a 10 on a d20 (ie 50%+ failure rate) for most creatures and dexterities are usually lowin the (10-12 range) is this feat not too powerful? In fact just shaking hands with some NPC's could be fatal to them!! 3) At Higher levels still would this attack no matter how casual (ie shake hands with orcus, kiss a succubus despite the fact that they are more than likely to make their saves) would this attack be detectable? Ok so '0' Dexterity = paralyzation and helpless not death. Yea right the rest of the party are going to let it lay there until it recovers
Fallenangel359 08-09-07, 09:20 AM	its questionable wether they get a save at all First off, it says they are ravaged by, not they make a save or are ravaged by. Second off, if it did have a save, as a supernatural ability, like all exalted feats, it is no longer being a physical object which is the ravage, the save would be 10+1/2 HD+relative modifier, which in this case, is constitution, and would scale nicely with level. The first interpruptation my group decided is too violently powerful. Your interuptation is pathetically weak at high level, and overpowered at L1. The 2nd interuptation is a balanced, and fair way of doing it.
Fallenangel359 08-09-07, 09:23 AM	Also, the party has no actual reason to coup de gra the paralyzed opponent in most situations. The opponent is considered defeated, and is disabled for 24 hours. They get the xp, can loot the paralyzed iced over body, and move on. Also remember, it doesn't work on neutral foes... which there are a lot of....
Ananvil 08-09-07, 09:44 AM	Also, the party has no actual reason to coup de gra the paralyzed opponent in most situations. The opponent is considered defeated, and is disabled for 24 hours. They get the xp, can loot the paralyzed iced over body, and move on. Also remember, it doesn't work on neutral foes... which there are a lot of.... Sure they do, they're evil and a threat to everything good. They fought them for a reason, I'm sure. My question, is that if a Monk Grapples someone and pins them, are they 'ravaged' every round?
The_argumentative_Player 08-09-07, 10:04 AM	I agree that my interpretation is overpowerfull at 1st and very weak at higher levels, that was the point. I thought that it would be too game unbalancing at low levels and a bit pointless later on (still a 1 in 20 chance after 13th lvl) As for the saving throw why list it in the book as DC14? Your version with a save for the average PC at 1st lvl (from the stats I have already) would be 10+1 (lvl)+2(16 con) = 13 and at 10th lvl 10+5+between(+2 and +8)= 17-23 (Dependant on additions to abilities due to lvl and class lvl increase [see voluntary poverty]) (does not include any feats by the way). This still give a fighter between a 7 and 13 on the die save (I think, not sure ) throw. Also, the party has no actual reason to coup de gra the paralyzed opponent in most situations. The opponent is considered defeated, and is disabled for 24 hours. They get the xp, can loot the paralyzed iced over body, and move on. Also remember, it doesn't work on neutral foes... which there are a lot of.... Not if I know this group, dead is the only way to leave the opposition, that way they dont seek revenge! (their attitude) This series of modules takes place with a LOT of evil areas, towns and alike not just Kill evil taking place not just on the prime material plane.
The_Shaman 08-09-07, 10:15 AM	Not if I know this group, dead is the only way to leave the opposition, that way they dont seek revenge! (their attitude) Someone with that modus operandi has their grubby mitts on EXALTED feats? Shee-yesh! Did they bother to read what exalted characters, you know, act like? Champions of Valor is a lot more down-to-earth than BoED, and it still considers such an attitude unseemly for good characters (not exalted, good).
Hsien 08-09-07, 10:18 AM	The DC for the Save is flat 14, per the description of Glden Ice and does not have any modifier to it. Golden Ice is powerful at low levels, but consdier that the VoP monks abilities are not that great at this point so there is some balance there. By the time where Golden Ice is basically negligible, 1 in 20 chance, the VoP abilities have made up for that reduction...plus there's always that chance and with multiple attacks/flurry..it's bound to happen. Note: Our group had a similar VoP Monk w/ Golden Ice who is considering re-training it because we started at 10th, now about 15th, and it's never worked yet. He keeps hoping though.
Iarmeister 08-09-07, 10:20 AM	As for the saving throw why list it in the book as DC14? Your version with a save for the average PC at 1st lvl (from the stats I have already) would be 10+1 (lvl)+2(16 con) = 13... Just fyi...16 Con score nets a +3 bonus, not +2. So, the DC would, in fact, be 14.
risner 08-09-07, 10:25 AM	Feat 1 Sacred Vow -Vow of Povity Feat 2 Touch of Golden Ice Save DC = 14 My questions are: 1) Does this work every time the monk touches someone evil with skin (ie hand/feet/bald head/etc)? 2) At higher levels (ie 1st) ... is this feat not too powerful? 3) At Higher levels still would this attack no matter how casual ... would this attack be detectable? Remember, those exalted feats are hard to play. They require being more "good" than Paladin good or they lose the feats until an atonement at least or forever (iirc) in some situations. 1) Yes 2) Quite the contrary, at higher levels, the Touch of Golden Ice feat becomes increasingly irrelevant because the DC14 fort save becomes more and more easily passed by NPC's and monsters. 3) Again, since the required save is so easy, it becomes useless beyond around 6 to 10th level. Also, the player with the exalted feats might (read: should) take offense to other PC's killing off his helpless Iced opponents. We go back to the "more good than Paladin good" and if he stands idle while other PC's kill off helpless insanely evil NPC's, he should start trying to prevent that.
The_argumentative_Player 08-09-07, 10:29 AM	Just fyi...16 Con score nets a +3 bonus, not +2. So, the DC would, in fact, be 14. At work at the moment could not remember if it went 15/16 +2 or 14/15+2...sorry
The_argumentative_Player 08-09-07, 10:41 AM	Remember, those exalted feats are hard to play. They require being more "good" than Paladin good or they lose the feats until an atonement at least or forever (iirc) in some situations. 1) Yes 2) Quite the contrary, at higher levels, the Touch of Golden Ice feat becomes increasingly irrelevant because the DC14 fort save becomes more and more easily passed by NPC's and monsters. 3) Again, since the required save is so easy, it becomes useless beyond around 6 to 10th level. Also, the player with the exalted feats might (read: should) take offense to other PC's killing off his helpless Iced opponents. We go back to the "more good than Paladin good" and if he stands idle while other PC's kill off helpless insanely evil NPC's, he should start trying to prevent that. 1) Thanks thats what I thought also I would think that this is a constant not volunatary action 2) I was being sarcastic hence (1st Lvl) as a high level 3) thats what I was thinking but does the person/creature touched detect the 'attack'. It could get interesting ie while shaking the hand of the 'Big Benefactor' he senses your attempt to inflict damage upon him!! In his defence the monk player has already stated that he would take offence at this and would try to do his best to protect 'defeated' foes, but I have a feeling that he is on to a beating to nothing with the rest of the party if they play according to usual form.
Tsuul 08-09-07, 10:49 AM	thats what I was thinking but does the person/creature touched detect the 'attack'. It could get interesting ie while shaking the hand of the 'Big Benefactor' he senses your attempt to inflict damage upon him!!Yes, it is a blatant attack. And he had better watch his hands at low levels. The town guard does not like attacks made against it's citizenry. It is very easy to get a group of "good" guys after the player. I would change the feat to be a 1/day swift action to imbue all your attacks until the start of your next turn to "ravage" people. DC 10 + 1/2 character level + cha bonus. Now it isn't so strong at low levels and isn't useless at high levels. I would also change how the ravage deals damage based on the opponent's beneficial modifier/stat to the player's stat, but that is just me.
Steely_Dan 08-09-07, 11:04 AM	Also, ToGI is such a pain for the DM – having to re-calculate an enemy's AC, Ref, ranged attacks etc every time they are ravaged. I would probably not take this feat just to give the DM a break.
tarkin 08-09-07, 11:08 AM	I disagree. 1. It is NOT weak at high levels. 2. When you make it something that scales, then it DOES become something too strong. Here is my reasoning. At low levels you don't get many attacks. two at first level. So assuming you hit once, they have to make a highish save to survive that round. But at higher levels you have more attacks. Monks get 5 attacks by 20th level, and honestly 3 or four should hit (even without things like boots of Haste or natural weapons which can easily boost that up to 5 or 6 hits) Considering a natural 1 always fails a save. That means that your Golden Ice has at least a 15% chance of working every round, even against a high powereded being. That is more than enough to make it worth a feat. When you start to upp the DC, then at higher levels you begin to double dip - hard to resist AND lots of extra attacks, making it very likely that no one will every last an entire round agaisnt you without failing a save. Now, I might be willing to do something like up the save only if you are doing a single attack.
RobbyPants 08-09-07, 11:18 AM	Also, ToGI is such a pain for the DM – having to re-calculate an enemy's AC, Ref, ranged attacks etc every time they are ravaged. The trick is to remember the base numbers, and just apply a penalty to them all based on the Dex damage. The only tricky part then becomes if someone has a higher Dex mod than what their armor would allow. So, if someone has a Ref save of +8, and they take 6 points of Dex damage, rather than reclculating it, just give them a -3 penalty.
Steely_Dan 08-09-07, 11:24 AM	The trick is to remember the base numbers, and just apply a penalty to them all based on the Dex damage. The only tricky part then becomes if someone has a higher Dex mod than what their armor would allow. So, if someone has a Ref save of +8, and they take 6 points of Dex damage, rather than reclculating it, just give them a -3 penalty. I know, but it is still a little…niggling. Just like THACO was easy, but annoying.
Tsuul 08-09-07, 11:27 AM	I saw this feat in action at pre epic levels against demons and/or devils (high cha enemies) it owned, even with the dc14. Vs normal foes with maybe a +1 or +2 cha modifier, it would be way more hassle then its worth.
Tedronai 08-09-07, 04:02 PM	Note that if the player manages to get Vow of Poverty at 1st level, he/she also gets a bonus exalted feat at that level (this fact is hidden in a text block as only humans can qualify in most cases - I think there might be 1 or 2 exceptions out there but that's it). I'd suggest Nymph's Kiss for those wonderful skill points right from the start. If you're concerned with the combination of multiple hits and a high DC at higher levels (from making the DC scale to lower it at early levels without simply gimping the feat), could make it a swift action to imbue your attacks until your fist successful hit or the start of your next turn (meaning that if you missed all attacks, or simply didn't make any, that it would still be available on attacks of opportunity). It could then affect a maximum of one opponent per round and only once each round, have a relevant DC at higher levels and a manageable one at lower levels, and not cause the risk of accidentally inciting respected townsfolk (though if there were a knowledgable sage available in the town, demonstrating that the injury to that individual was not actually the monk's doing, but a result of their immoral actions should not be particularly difficult; decent ranks in Knowledge-Religion should suffice for this)