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| Snazzomancer12-15-07, 10:38 AM | To start off, credits for the idea of this chain goes to Xavon_Wrentaile. I always felt that toughness was a weak feat and could be built into something much stronger if given the chance. After some searches on the WotC I found what I was looking for developed this. Any input is definately helpful.Without further ado... :fight!: The Toughness Feat Chain! :fight!: Toughness [General/Toughness] You are tougher than normal. Benefits: You gain +3 hit points. Special: A character may gain this feat multiple times. Its effects stack. -A fighter may select Toughness as one of his bonus feats. Dwarven Toughness [General/Toughness] You have endurance born of the ancient mountains. Prerequisite: Toughness Benefits:You gain +4 hit points. You gain an additional +1 hit point for every 5 character levels. Special: A character may gain this feat multiple times. Its effects stack. -A fighter may select Dwarven Toughness as one of his bonus feats. Troll’s Toughness [General/Toughness] Your ability to take damage is primal. Prerequisites: Dwarven Toughness, 15 Con Benefits: You gain +5 hit points. You gain an additional +1 hit point for every 4 character levels. You also heal lethal and non-lethal twice as quickly. Special: A character may gain this feat multiple times. Its additional HP effects stack. - A fighter may select Troll’s Toughness as one of his bonus feats. Dragon’s Toughness [General/Toughness] The power of ancient wyrms keeps you standing. Prerequisites: Troll's Toughness, 17 Con Benefits: You gain +6 hit points. You gain an additional +1 hit point for every 3 character levels. Additionally, choose from one of the following six descriptors: acid, cold, electricity, fire, force, or sonic. You gain an energy resistance of your (Highest)HD/3 against the selected energy type. Special: A character may gain this feat multiple times. The additional HP effects stack, and a different energy type is chosen each time the feat is taken. The energy resistance stacks with those granted by spells, abilities and other effects. - A fighter may select Dragon’s Toughness as one of his bonus feats. Titan’s Toughness [General/Toughness] Your toughness borders on divine. Prerequisites: Dragon Toughness, 19 Con Benefits: You gain +7 hit points. You gain an additional +1 hit point for every 2 character levels. Additionally, Titan Toughness qualifies for the Diehard feat. Re-roll all past, current, and future HD rolls below/equal to 50%. Take the highest roll in each case when calculating HP (Does not adjust HP due to level loss and similar effects). Special: A character may gain this feat multiple times. Its effects stack. - A fighter may select Titan’s Toughness as one of his bonus feats. Golem’s Toughness [General/Toughness] You absorb harm like a magical construct. Prerequisites: Dragon Toughness, 19 Con Benefits: You gain +8 hit points. In addition, you do not die until you reach –15 hit points. Special: You may take this feat twice. If you do, you gain another +8 hit points, and do not die until you reach –20 HP. -A fighter may select Toughness as one of his bonus feats. Eternal Toughness [General/Toughness] Your health actually limits the damage you take. Prerequisites: Titan Toughness, Golem Toughness, 9+ HD Benefits: You gain damage resistance of 1/- for each Toughness feat you have. Special: A fighter may select Toughness as one of his bonus feats. |
| InkBlot12-15-07, 01:37 PM | Dwarven Toughness isn't much better designed than the original Toughness. It's still too many feats spent for a non-scaling benefit (OK, it technically scales, but only to another +4 HP). I would just replace it with Improved Toughness. The rest look nice. You have a good idea there, with giving a secondary benefit in addition to increasing HP. There are already other feats which speed up natural healing. Without looking them up, I don't know if Troll's Toughness is balanced in regards to those. It is more mechanically elegant, and a feat I'd consider taking for any "tough guy" characters. Dragon's Toughness shouldn't stack, IMO. Energy Resistance never stacks, and there doesn't seem to be a reason why it should. Also "your (Highest)HD/3" needs to be clarified, or just changed. Are you saying a barbarian would get energy resistance 4? Why not make it scale with character level? Titan's Toughness needs to have it's mechanic revised. I only ever heard of one guy who actually tracked the results of each of his hit die. Titan's Toughness is unusable as-is by anyone who doesn't track their individual HD rolls. |
| Rebel728412-15-07, 01:51 PM | a) the chain is too long and is probably only accessible to fighters that frankly can take much better offensive/defensive feats. b) Golems are the ones that are most known for huge damage reduction as far as i know, that should be the feat that gives DR c) As pointed out earlier, titan's toughness needs revised due to most people using average hit points every level. |
| Snazzomancer12-15-07, 01:54 PM | Dwarven Toughness isn't much better designed than the original Toughness. It's still too many feats spent for a non-scaling benefit (OK, it technically scales, but only to another +4 HP). I would just replace it with Improved Toughness. I wanted to add a secondary ability but I wasn't sure what kind of low tier bonuses I could give it. Maybe scaling bonuses to status ailments? There are already other feats which speed up natural healing. Without looking them up, I don't know if Troll's Toughness is balanced in regards to those. It is more mechanically elegant, and a feat I'd consider taking for any "tough guy" characters. I figured part of being tough isn't just being able to take damage, but recover from it. Dragon's Toughness shouldn't stack, IMO. Energy Resistance never stacks, and there doesn't seem to be a reason why it should. Also "your (Highest)HD/3" needs to be clarified, or just changed. Are you saying a barbarian would get energy resistance 4? Why not make it scale with character level? Now that I think about it, it probably should scale with character level. I don't think Resistance 2 every 4 or 5 levels isn't too bad. Edit:I think it should scale because 1)It's not like you'd gain a game-breaking amount of resistance & 2)This is your bodies physical resistance to said elements. There should be no reason it can't become enhanced by magic, or other sources. Titan's Toughness needs to have it's mechanic revised. I only ever heard of one guy who actually tracked the results of each of his hit die. Titan's Toughness is unusable as-is by anyone who doesn't track their individual HD rolls. Basically I wanted an ability that made sure crap HD rolls don't screw over the build. Tough guys (and gals) don't have 1's and 2's on the majority of their HP rolls. Any mechanic to replace what I have now is welcome. A)It was designed to be a chain for fighters, as are most feat chains. The reason there are secondary abilities is to make up for the lack of combat power. B)Maybe I should give Golem's Toughness some sort of spell resistant ability? I'd rather keep the large amount of damage reduction at the top of the chain. Besides, is having chain that's slighty longer than usual very harmful? Most fighter chains stop around 5 feats, and no one says you have to move all the way up to Eternal Toughness. Thanks for the feedback. Other's don't be afraid to reply; I want as many reviews as possible. |
| Legdiwena12-15-07, 01:56 PM | So 58 bonus HP if you take each feat once You have a reference to Ogre's Toughness, should that be Troll? |
| Snazzomancer12-15-07, 02:14 PM | Depends on your level. I wasn't sure how much HP would be to much, and how much would be to little(Absorb-a-few-hits VS Unkillable Machine). What are you talking about with "Ogre's Toughness"? Also what would you guys think if I added bonuses against manuvers to the tree (Trip, Bull-Rush, that whole deal)? |
| Jaxgaret12-15-07, 04:56 PM | What are you talking about with "Ogre's Toughness"? Look at your prereq for Dragon's Toughness. Also, you should take a look at Masters of the Wild, you've named some of your feats the same as feats in that book. |
| Snazzomancer12-15-07, 05:49 PM | Good point, change made. Unfortunately, me nor any of my friends own Masters of the Wild. |
| InkBlot12-15-07, 05:49 PM | edit: sniped by the OP Masters Of The Wild is a 3.0 book. Improved Toughness is the 3.5 update for all the X Toughness feats from Masters Of The Wild. So there's no naming conflict here at all. |
| dawnbringer12-15-07, 06:29 PM | With these feats, a level 6 human fighter will have, assuming he had average rolls for hp, 100 hp and a feat left over. |
| Snazzomancer12-15-07, 06:34 PM | By my math your 6th level Human fighter with average rolls will have 81 hit points (Death at -15), some energy resistance and quickened health regeneration with 2 additional feat slots left over for his choosing. Your point? |
| Snazzomancer12-16-07, 11:23 AM | Bump. |
| Jaxgaret12-16-07, 05:18 PM | Masters Of The Wild is a 3.0 book. Improved Toughness is the 3.5 update for all the X Toughness feats from Masters Of The Wild. Link me to an official article that says that. If it doesn't specifically say that they were updated to 3.5 as Improved Toughness, then the 3.0 MotW feats are still official. |
| InkBlot12-16-07, 05:52 PM | http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20050110x There you go. The Masters Of The Wild's toughness feats are obsolete in a 3.5 game. |
| Jaxgaret12-16-07, 05:59 PM | http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20050110x There you go. The Masters Of The Wild's toughness feats are obsolete in a 3.5 game. Thanks. Well that's lame. |
| dawnbringer12-17-07, 11:24 AM | By my math your 6th level Human fighter with average rolls will have 81 hit points (Death at -15), some energy resistance and quickened health regeneration with 2 additional feat slots left over for his choosing. Your point? Nope. I'm definately right. 100 hp at 6th level. But it is 2 additional feat slots, your right there. I was assuming 18 con btw. |
| Leress12-17-07, 03:23 PM | Nope. I'm definately right. 100 hp at 6th level. But it is 2 additional feat slots, your right there. I was assuming 18 con btw. How did you get that number? All I got was 83.5 hp with 4 feats left over. Did you take some multiple times? |
| Alcalientre12-17-07, 06:52 PM | Dwarven Toughness should require 13 Constitution. As it stands, there would be no point in taking the original toughness feat multiple times because you could take Dwarven Toughness instead. Assuming you don't want to change Core material, the only way to fix this is to put an additional requirement on Darven Toughness. Of course, I am assuming it is a problem that it is illogical. :) Maybe this doesn't bother you, but I know it bothers me. |
| dawnbringer12-18-07, 12:30 PM | How did you get that number? All I got was 83.5 hp with 4 feats left over. Did you take some multiple times? Ok, Human Fighter first level with 18 con. Max starting hp: 14 Toughness: 17 Dwarven Toughness: 21 Trolls Toughness: 26 2nd level: Average hp gain (+9): 35 Dragons Toughness: 41 3rd level: Average hp gain (+9): 50 +1 extra from Dragons toughness ("You gain an additional +1 hit point for every 3 character levels."): 51 Any other feat 4th level: Ability boost to 19 Con Average hp gain (+9): 60 Titans Toughness: 67 +2 extra from Titans toughness: 69 +1 extra from Trolls Toughness: 70 5th level: Average hp gain (+9): 79 +1 extra from Dwarven Toughness: 80 6th level: Average hp gain (+9): 89 Golems Toughness: 98 +1 extra from Dragons Toughness: 99 +1 extra from Titans Toughness: 100. Any other feat Theres your 100 at 6th level. |
| Meep22212-18-07, 03:37 PM | That's... quite a nice feat chain. Although, it'd make a great chain for a tank character, especially with that nice DR... It's a bit over powered, at 9th level if you take Eternal Toughness, it's DR 7/- with 3 feats left over to take whatever you want with (one more Golems Toughness and two more Dragons Toughness, Mmm... for a total of DR 10/-) Continuing what the other guy had. You'll have around 165-185 hp, and DR 10/-. That's insane DR, and good HP, which can only improve. If I were gonna use these, I'd prolly hedge the DR back to feats/2 at most, rounded down, or even feats/3. |
| Jaxgaret12-18-07, 05:33 PM | Theres your 100 at 6th level. It should be +9.5 average HP gain per level, so if the rest of your math was correct (I didn't check it), that should be 103 HP. |
| Snazzomancer12-18-07, 05:37 PM | That's... quite a nice feat chain. Although, it'd make a great chain for a tank character, especially with that nice DR... It's a bit over powered, at 9th level if you take Eternal Toughness, it's DR 7/- with 3 feats left over to take whatever you want with (one more Golems Toughness and two more Dragons Toughness, Mmm... for a total of DR 10/-) Continuing what the other guy had. You'll have around 165-185 hp, and DR 10/-. That's insane DR, and good HP, which can only improve. If I were gonna use these, I'd prolly hedge the DR back to feats/2 at most, rounded down, or even feats/3. This is true... I think I will implement the feats/2 and 13 Con req for Dwarven Toughness... But I think a easy way to prevent people from abusing the build would be to simply make so you cannot take more toughness feats than your Con modifier(Buffed or unbuffed???)? |
| Meep22212-18-07, 10:56 PM | A freind of mine found a ruling (technically it's an extrapollation of a ruling) that as long as you quallifiy for a feat at the time, you can take it, but if you lose the quallifications, then you cannot use it. |
| Bahumut12-18-07, 11:24 PM | honestly, i find this chain well thought out and actually balanced. ok, so what if a fighter blows all his feats on these? he is deciding to train the HECK out of his body every second of every day to become the ultimate tank. how is this any different from taking the weapon focus feat ALL the way up to weapon supremacy (PHB2)? that guy has decided to be the best (insert weapon here) fighter in the world. he spends every waking minute practicing with that weapon until it becomes an extension of their body. |
| Jaxgaret12-19-07, 12:38 AM | honestly, i find this chain well thought out and actually balanced. ok, so what if a fighter blows all his feats on these? he is deciding to train the HECK out of his body every second of every day to become the ultimate tank. how is this any different from taking the weapon focus feat ALL the way up to weapon supremacy (PHB2)? that guy has decided to be the best (insert weapon here) fighter in the world. he spends every waking minute practicing with that weapon until it becomes an extension of their body. I agree. I'm not sure if this specific feat tree is balanced, but it doesn't look too game breaking. Might need a small nerf, but I can't be sure - I would need to playtest it. These feats or something like these feats would be welcome in my games. |
| Snazzomancer12-20-07, 09:14 PM | Alright, here's what I've come with so far as a total of changes to the feats so far. Toughness [General/Toughness] You are tougher than normal. Benefits: You gain +3 hit points. Special: A character may gain this feat multiple times. Its effects stack. -A fighter may select Toughness as one of his bonus feats. -You may only take a number of feats with the Toughness descriptor equal to your Con Modifier+HD/4 Dwarven Toughness [General/Toughness] You have endurance born of the ancient mountains. Prerequisite: Toughness, Con 13 Benefits:You gain +4 hit points as well as a bonus on rolls (+1 per 4 HD) against all negative conditions except confusion and fascination. You gain an additional +1 hit point for every 5 character levels. Special: A character may gain this feat multiple times. Its additional HP effects stack. -A fighter may select Dwarven Toughness as one of his bonus feats. Dragon’s Toughness [General/Toughness] The power of ancient wyrms keeps you standing. Prerequisites: Troll's Toughness, 17 Con Benefits: You gain +6 hit points. You gain an additional +1 hit point for every 3 character levels. Additionally, choose from one of the following six descriptors: acid, cold, electricity, fire, force, or sonic. You gain an energy resistance equal to the number of hit dice you possess divided by 3 (Round down) against the selected energy type. Special: A character may gain this feat multiple times. The additional HP effects stack, and a different energy type is chosen each time the feat is taken. The energy resistance stacks with those granted by spells, abilities and other effects. - A fighter may select Dragon’s Toughness as one of his bonus feats. Eternal Toughness [General/Toughness] Your health actually limits the damage you take. Prerequisites: Titan Toughness, Golem Toughness, 9+ HD Benefits: You gain damage resistance of 1/- for every two Toughness feats you have. Special: A fighter may select Eternal Toughness as one of his bonus feats. Input on any of these? |
| aelryinth12-20-07, 09:29 PM | Alright, here's what I've come with so far as a total of changes to the feats so far. Toughness [General/Toughness] You are tougher than normal. Benefits: You gain +3 hit points. Special: A character may gain this feat multiple times. Its effects stack. -A fighter may select Toughness as one of his bonus feats. -You may only take a number of feats with the Toughness descriptor equal to your Con Modifier+HD/4 Dwarven Toughness [General/Toughness] You have endurance born of the ancient mountains. Prerequisite: Toughness, Con 13 Benefits:You gain +4 hit points as well as a bonus on rolls (+1 per 4 HD) against all negative conditions except confusion and fascination. You gain an additional +1 hit point for every 5 character levels. Special: A character may gain this feat multiple times. Its additional HP effects stack. -A fighter may select Dwarven Toughness as one of his bonus feats. Dragon’s Toughness [General/Toughness] The power of ancient wyrms keeps you standing. Prerequisites: Troll's Toughness, 17 Con Benefits: You gain +6 hit points. You gain an additional +1 hit point for every 3 character levels. Additionally, choose from one of the following six descriptors: acid, cold, electricity, fire, force, or sonic. You gain an energy resistance equal to the number of hit dice you possess divided by 3 (Round down) against the selected energy type. Special: A character may gain this feat multiple times. The additional HP effects stack, and a different energy type is chosen each time the feat is taken. The energy resistance stacks with those granted by spells, abilities and other effects. - A fighter may select Dragon’s Toughness as one of his bonus feats. Eternal Toughness [General/Toughness] Your health actually limits the damage you take. Prerequisites: Titan Toughness, Golem Toughness, 9+ HD Benefits: You gain damage resistance of 1/- for every two Toughness feats you have. Special: A fighter may select Eternal Toughness as one of his bonus feats. Input on any of these? Actually, while the feat is nice, notice also that theycompletely revised Toughness for 4e as a feat worthwhile at every level. You now gain 3hp +1 hp/level (yes, 4 at first level!) They've finally decided that yes, fighter bonus feats should actually be worth twice the power of the horrible feats they put out in 3e, to ramp feats up as something better then class abilities. So, you may want to start from there. A Toughness chain that takes after the whole 'focus' line of feats is not a bad idea, however. ===Aelryinth |
| Grod_The_Giant12-20-07, 09:42 PM | a nice little chain of feats here. Looks well balanced and though out- just clarify the "(Highest)HD/3" part of Dragon's Toughness. |
| Snazzomancer12-22-07, 10:29 PM | Actually, while the feat is nice, notice also that theycompletely revised Toughness for 4e as a feat worthwhile at every level. You now gain 3hp +1 hp/level (yes, 4 at first level!) They've finally decided that yes, fighter bonus feats should actually be worth twice the power of the horrible feats they put out in 3e, to ramp feats up as something better then class abilities. So, you may want to start from there. A Toughness chain that takes after the whole 'focus' line of feats is not a bad idea, however. ===Aelryinth Don't yet own 4E, so I don't know what's up in there. a nice little chain of feats here. Looks well balanced and though out- just clarify the "(Highest)HD/3" part of Dragon's Toughness. Changed in edits. |
| aelryinth12-23-07, 02:14 PM | The new toughness feat was one of the three they posted on the website as examples of 3e feats. The other was a Spell Sculpt effect (create hollow spots in spells) and a Uncanny Dodge/Alertness synthesis. You are on the right track with this. However, it's pretty plain there should be some sort of cap on how many hp you can gain from feats. I would start thinking more generically about a Con/Toughness/Endurance/DR chain. One mechanice I always liked to use is extra hp=base Fort save, up to your maximum possible for HD. thus, there was always a cap. You've got a good chain here. Now, start off the chain with the 4E version (3hp+1 hp/level) as the Level One level of power, and start building from there, keeping any more HP small, but add in other benefits. The last feat in the chain should absolutely rock, and the others should just get better and better as well. ===Aeryinth |
| StruckingFuggle12-23-07, 02:47 PM | To the people that keep tossing the word "tank" around, these feats, while nice (and pretty dang good for npcs, I may use them) don't make you a tank. A tank is worthless if all it can do is soak damage, because you need to attract damage to soak in the first place. And these don't do anything to make you tankier. |
| sirdanile12-25-07, 12:08 PM | Shouldn't dwarven toughness have the prerequisite toughness or dwarf? (you have to either have toughness or be a dwarf, this will allow those dwarven fighters to stay on the same chain "level" as a human and put his good con score to use.) Though the other feats would have to include or "insert monster name here" |
| Bahumut12-26-07, 11:42 PM | Shouldn't dwarven toughness have the prerequisite toughness or dwarf? (you have to either have toughness or be a dwarf, this will allow those dwarven fighters to stay on the same chain "level" as a human and put his good con score to use.) Though the other feats would have to include or "insert monster name here" the names of these feats do not matter, they could be Toughness I through X or what have you. the scary part of what you are proposing is the DM giving every dragon you fight Dragon's Toughness with resistance chosen of what they are vulnerable to. calling a TPK early on that fight. On a different note, I think that these are excellent feats, but need fine tuning that can only be done by a LOT of critique-ing. So please, speak up, offer suggestions, tell why each one is over/underpowered, etc. Remember, only YOU can prevent good houseruled Feats from going to waste. |
| sigma99912-27-07, 06:37 AM | To the people that keep tossing the word "tank" around, these feats, while nice (and pretty dang good for npcs, I may use them) don't make you a tank. A tank is worthless if all it can do is soak damage, because you need to attract damage to soak in the first place. And these don't do anything to make you tankier. Read this, and know it, people. This is a true statement. These feats are so limited, I would never consider taking them for PC or NPC. |
| Leress12-27-07, 10:15 PM | To start off, credits for the idea of this chain goes to Xavon_Wrentaile. I always felt that toughness was a weak feat and could be built into something much stronger if given the chance. After some searches on the WotC I found what I was looking for developed this. Any input is definately helpful.Without further ado... :fight!: The Toughness Feat Chain! :fight!: Toughness [General/Toughness] You are tougher than normal. Benefits: You gain +3 hit points. Special: A character may gain this feat multiple times. Its effects stack. -A fighter may select Toughness as one of his bonus feats. Since this feat hasn't change it is very weak, and really worth taking. It is already established by many others even the authors that this is a weak feat. Dwarven Toughness [General/Toughness] You have endurance born of the ancient mountains. Prerequisite: Toughness Benefits:You gain +4 hit points. You gain an additional +1 hit point for every 5 character levels. Special: A character may gain this feat multiple times. Its effects stack. -A fighter may select Dwarven Toughness as one of his bonus feats. Since may characters are 3rd level when they can get this (that is if they are not human and only devote themselves to only this chain) it really doesn't offer anything, I rather be better at casting (Spell focus), better at hurting (Power attack) , better at avoidance (+2 to saves)and/or better at making something useful (brew potion). So what if I can survive two more strikes of a morningstar from a commoner, monster's damage out put is a lot higher than this. Troll’s Toughness [General/Toughness] Your ability to take damage is primal. Prerequisites: Dwarven Toughness, 15 Con Benefits: You gain +5 hit points. You gain an additional +1 hit point for every 4 character levels. You also heal lethal and non-lethal twice as quickly. Special: A character may gain this feat multiple times. Its additional HP effects stack. - A fighter may select Troll’s Toughness as one of his bonus feats. It gets less and less worth investing in this chain. Burning half of my career feats (so far 3 of 7) and 1/3 of my career levels just to get 14 extra hit point and the ability to heal non-lethal (which at this point no one really cares about), instead of options that help me in combat (which I have none since I have invested in this chain) Dragon’s Toughness [General/Toughness] The power of ancient wyrms keeps you standing. Prerequisites: Troll's Toughness, 17 Con Benefits: You gain +6 hit points. You gain an additional +1 hit point for every 3 character levels. Additionally, choose from one of the following six descriptors: acid, cold, electricity, fire, force, or sonic. You gain an energy resistance of your (Highest)HD/3 against the selected energy type. Special: A character may gain this feat multiple times. The additional HP effects stack, and a different energy type is chosen each time the feat is taken. The energy resistance stacks with those granted by spells, abilities and other effects. - A fighter may select Dragon’s Toughness as one of his bonus feats. The resistance gain is not worth investing most of your feats to get. At 9th level with Resistance Energy type 3 doesn't mean anything (maybe force and acid). Monster's damage output is far exceeding this and you still don't have any real combat options. Titan’s Toughness [General/Toughness] Your toughness borders on divine. Prerequisites: Dragon Toughness, 19 Con Benefits: You gain +7 hit points. You gain an additional +1 hit point for every 2 character levels. Additionally, Titan Toughness qualifies for the Diehard feat. Re-roll all past, current, and future HD rolls below/equal to 50%. Take the highest roll in each case when calculating HP (Does not adjust HP due to level loss and similar effects). Special: A character may gain this feat multiple times. Its effects stack. - A fighter may select Titan’s Toughness as one of his bonus feats. At this point you could have already had the Diehard feat, and re-rolling all you hp again is just annoying. Even the synergy of these feats aren't very good. This feat does less than the one before it. Golem’s Toughness [General/Toughness] You absorb harm like a magical construct. Prerequisites: Dragon Toughness, 19 Con Benefits: You gain +8 hit points. In addition, you do not die until you reach –15 hit points. Special: You may take this feat twice. If you do, you gain another +8 hit points, and do not die until you reach –20 HP. -A fighter may select Toughness as one of his bonus feats. At the level you get this having the cusson will only really have you survive one maybe two more hit, but many creature are just flat out killing you. Burning nearly all of my career feat (6 of 7) for this is no where near worth it. Eternal Toughness [General/Toughness] Your health actually limits the damage you take. Prerequisites: Titan Toughness, Golem Toughness, 9+ HD Benefits: You gain damage resistance of 1/- for each Toughness feat you have. Special: A fighter may select Toughness as one of his bonus feats. You might as well just play a barbarian and not even care about these feats. At best You get DR 7/-, death at -15, rerolls on HP gain, Energy resistance 9 to a single type(that stacks), heal non-lethal damage twice as quickly, and +58 hp. If you took each feat once (since most classes could only do just that). This is no where near worth losing my career feat for (even if I was a cleric/wizard/druid) The main problem with this chain is that it's too long and doesn't offer anything of much value for someone who spent all of their career feats to get. This isn't even very good if you where a fighter, since you lose a little more than a third of your feats which means your overall effectiveness is reduce by that same amount. |
| dawnbringer12-29-07, 06:27 AM | leress, its meant as a fighter chain. Nevertheless, I could never see myself taking them either. |
| Ace_of_time12-29-07, 12:21 PM | I think it would work better as a class of some type. Maybe a pro class. The extra healing feat is called rapid metabolism. It allows you to gain your con mod + levels in HP whether you sleep 8 hours or not. Plus double for full days rest or something like that. There is also the imp toughness feat that lets you add +1 per HD plus one more HP per level gained there after. You could take the three ideas and combine them in to a pro class. Note: They could works for wizards too. They get bonus feats for meta magic and stuff so you could use level up feat for the HP gain. It would be better then the undead option. Also Art from eberron. They about every meta and item feat there is. |
| Leress12-29-07, 01:41 PM | leress, its meant as a fighter chain. Nevertheless, I could never see myself taking them either. It is still too long even for a fighter, you have to sink 38.8% of your feats and you get little in return. A fighter loses a third of it's combat potential, that is not good at all. (Yes, I know you agree with me, this is for the people who may think it is a good option) |
| aelryinth12-30-07, 04:50 PM | Yes, the weakness of this chain is this: The Fighter usually uses his feats to assist his offensive output, because that's the job of his class. He usually uses items/gold to shore up his defenses. Shifting using feats to shoring up defenses puts a definite crimp into the Fighter's style, as he has to find something to take the place of the offense he has given up. Especially with the 4E raising the power level of feats to something worthwhile to take, these should definitely be adjusted to be worth taking at the level they are taken, and worthwhile at all levels. Otherwise they are just interesting experiments that are never going to be used. ===Aelryinth |
| Snazzomancer01-01-08, 08:53 PM | Sorry it's been so long since I replied to this thread. Holidays and all that. Anyhow, now for responses. Leress:The general problem of creating a feat chain like this is the lack of exclusiveness in toughness. Not everyone can become an arcane savant, a psionic mastermind, a weapons master, yet almost regardless of race, class, or creed, anyone can be/become tough. The problem with balancing the chain is that by increasing the power or shortening the length too much, it becomes balanced for some but then extremely advantageous for others. I think the best way to shorten the chain would be to scrap dwarven toughness all together and just fuse it with normal toughness (4+1/5 levels) Sigma999 & Dawnbringer: No one liners. If you're going to make a comment, please elaborate. Ace_of_Time: I'm sure I could create a class based around toughness, but I honestly don't believe you need to "specialize" levels commited to stamina and endurance just to be hardier than your peers. Aelryinth: I might make a 4E version of these feats sooner or later. I saw some of a few days ago (I don't remember if it was on the site or in a preview book[My hobby place doesn't have 4E copies]) and it really does look like they raised the bar on things for the fighter. I won't deny that in 3.5 you're usually better off dealing & taking heavier damage than dealing & taking less, but designing a chain that circumvents the narrow bridge, well hat's the challenge isn't it? |
| Leress01-01-08, 09:09 PM | Sorry it's been so long since I replied to this thread. Holidays and all that. Anyhow, now for responses. Leress:The general problem of creating a feat chain like this is the lack of exclusiveness in toughness. Not everyone can become an arcane savant, a psionic mastermind, a weapons master, yet almost regardless of race, class, or creed, anyone can be/become tough. The problem with balancing the chain is that by increasing the power or shortening the length too much, it becomes balanced for some but then extremely advantageous for others. I think the best way to shorten the chain would be to scrap dwarven toughness all together and just fuse it with normal toughness (4+1/5 levels) Any random character will have at most likely 7 feats throughout their career. I would suggest scrapping toughness and Dwarf toughness at least roll them into other feats. This feat chain doesn't get any advantage at all. The bonuses are not worth losing all of your feats. Most character don't get that many feats. You have to balance it to that level not to the people who get the most. The bonuses are too little and many may not even remember that they get them. The longest feat chains for the general populace of characters needs to be about 3-4 feats and even those have to be really good to make it worth going through the chain. |
| sigma99901-02-08, 03:27 PM | Snazz, that wasn't a one-liner; this is. |
| aelryinth01-02-08, 07:11 PM | Any random character will have at most likely 7 feats throughout their career. I would suggest scrapping toughness and Dwarf toughness at least roll them into other feats. This feat chain doesn't get any advantage at all. The bonuses are not worth losing all of your feats. Most character don't get that many feats. You have to balance it to that level not to the people who get the most. The bonuses are too little and many may not even remember that they get them. The longest feat chains for the general populace of characters needs to be about 3-4 feats and even those have to be really good to make it worth going through the chain. That is correct. A Feat chain 3 feats long is a huge investment for a non-fighter. Even for a Fighter, it's so significant an investment in his defenses instead of his offenses that you really have to justify the investment. In short, if you are going to make a major chain out of this, there has to be major rewards at the end of it, that make it worth the taking. As of now, just getting more hp isn't going to do it, and I'm not sure the defensive boost it gives is at all worth giving up those feats even for a fighter-type. ==Aelryinth |
| archerpwr01-02-08, 07:28 PM | aelryinth is right. These feats are worthless. 58 hp for 7 feats is 8.28 hp/feat. Improved toughness is 9 hp/feat. The secondary effects are pretty worthless too. Only at titan's toughness does the chain actually catch up to improved toughness alone's scaling hp. |
| ShadeOfDeciet01-03-08, 11:39 AM | Now, before going on, I want everyone to know this isn't a stab at the feats themselves, which, if they were more attainable, would be pretty damn spiffy. Instead, it's a PrC built specifically for these feats, with a little bonus at the end... <The Blob> (working title only.. see X-Men) Prerequisites: The following are prerequisites for become a <the Blob>: Base Fortitude save: +2 Feats: Any [Toughness] feat Class Attack Fort Ref Will Level Bonus Save Save Save Special 01 +1 +2 +0 +0 Bonus feat 02 +2 +3 +0 +0 Bonus feat 03 +3 +3 +1 +1 Bonus feat 04 +4 +4 +1 +1 Bonus feat 05 +5 +4 +1 +1 Bonus feat 06 +6 +5 +2 +2 Bonus feat 07 +7 +5 +2 +2 Bonus feat 08 +8 +6 +2 +2 Bonus feat 09 +9 +6 +3 +3 Bonus feat 10 +10 +7 +3 +3 Strength of Muscle Class Features All of the following are class features of <the Blob>: Weapon and Armor Proficiency: <the Blob> gains no new weapon or armor proficiencies. Bonus feat: At every level before 10th, <the Blob> gains a bonus feat. This may be any feat with the [Toughness] descriptor, and all other prerequisites of the feat must still be met. Strength of Muscle: At 10th level, <the Blob> has learned how to use his immensely resilient musculature to best effect. While wearing light or no armor, and carrying a light load or less, <the Blob> gains a bonus on all melee attack rolls equal to the number of [Toughness] feats he has, and a bonus on all melee damage rolls equal to 1.5 times the number of [Toughness] feats he has, rounded up. If <the Blob> has the Power Throw feat, this bonus to attack and damage rolls also applies to thrown weapons. Okay, so no flavor text, and minimally anything else. While only the skeleton of a class, I'm still not sure it'd be worth taking for 10 levels. Five, maybe, but probably not ten.... Thoughts? Criticisms? Non-flaming remarks? |
| archerpwr01-03-08, 12:40 PM | The strength of muscle ability is really strong and the rest is weak. Not viable for actual play unless starting at level 11. |
| ShadeOfDeciet01-03-08, 12:58 PM | The strength of muscle ability is really strong and the rest is weak. Not viable for actual play unless starting at level 11. That's what I was afraid of.. would it be more viable if it was five levels, you gained the base Toughness feat each level, and the bonuses from Strength of Muscle were Attack +1/2 [toughness] feats, Damage + [toughness] feats? Or would that still be fairly worthless? |
| aelryinth01-03-08, 03:14 PM | I find that any melee-based PrC that can't be built with feats alone on a Fighter Chassis is probably imbalanced as it stands. In other words, your class is granting 10 feats over ten levels. It's probably imbalanced,like most of the PRC's out there. ===Aelryinth |
| sigma99901-03-08, 08:07 PM | IMO a decent HP feat would grant exponential HP with leveling up. The amount gained from each level would stack on itself (level x level to HP?) as opposed to Improved Toughness-like feats merely granting 1 per level, cuz seriously, you're better off adding 2 points of CON or getting an item that does the same. |
| archerpwr01-03-08, 08:21 PM | I find that any melee-based PrC that can't be built with feats alone on a Fighter Chassis is probably imbalanced as it stands. In other words, your class is granting 10 feats over ten levels. It's probably imbalanced,like most of the PRC's out there. ===Aelryinth 10 crappy feats. Hit points are only one defense. |
| Bahumut01-05-08, 07:27 PM | I decided to take a different route for my "Toughness" Feats. i DEFINITELY need opinions and judgements on these, I think they might be a bit too powerful. Well, here goes... Undying Toughness [General] Prerequisites: Base Fort Save +5 Benefit: You gain 1 additional hit points per HD. This feat stacks with Improved Toughness and Unyielding Toughness. In addition, The range of your Dying state is increased to '-1 to -19 hp', and you Die at -20 hp. Normal: You become Disabled at 0 hp, Dying at -1 to -9 hp, and Die at -10 hp. Special: A fighter may select Undying Toughness as one of his fighter bonus feats. Unyielding Toughness [General] Prerequisites: Base Fort Save +8 Benefit: You gain 2 additional hit point per HD. This feat stacks with Improved Toughness. In addition, when you are below half of your maximum hit points, you gain DR 5/-. Special: A fighter may select Unyielding Toughness as one of his fighter bonus feats. |
| ShadeOfDeciet01-05-08, 08:16 PM | I decided to take a different route for my "Toughness" Feats. i DEFINITELY need opinions and judgements on these, I think they might be a bit too powerful. Well, here goes... Unyielding Toughness [General] Prerequisites: Base Fort Save +5 Benefit: You gain 1 additional hit point per HD. This feat stacks with Improved Toughness. In addition, when you are below half of your maximum hit points, you gain DR 5/-. Special: A fighter may select Unyielding Toughness as one of his fighter bonus feats. Undying Toughness [General] Prerequisites: Base Fort Save +8 Benefit: You gain 2 additional hit points per HD. This feat stacks with Improved Toughness and Unyielding Toughness. In addition, You become Disabled at -10 hp, Dying at -11 to -19 hp, and Die at -20 hp. Normal: You become Disabled at 0 hp, Dying at -1 to -9 hp, and Die at -10 hp. Special: A fighter may select Undying Toughness as one of his fighter bonus feats. Unyielding is strong. Really strong.. DR 5 at 6th level is really impressive for a guy that's gonna be in the monster's faces regularly. And with +1 hp per HD (more likely +2, but I digress), he'll have the hit points to use it effectively And all Undying Tougness really does, is give you +10 hit points... |
| Bahumut01-05-08, 08:34 PM | Unyielding is strong. Really strong.. DR 5 at 6th level is really impressive for a guy that's gonna be in the monster's faces regularly. And with +1 hp per HD (more likely +2, but I digress), he'll have the hit points to use it effectively And all Undying Tougness really does, is give you +10 hit points... you're right, i think i'll switch things around so that Unyielding is the higher one. also, i'll change Undying to just increase the dying from -1 to -19 and death at -20. |
| Leress01-05-08, 08:42 PM | I decided to take a different route for my "Toughness" Feats. i DEFINITELY need opinions and judgements on these, I think they might be a bit too powerful. Well, here goes... Okay Unyielding Toughness [General] Prerequisites: Base Fort Save +5 Benefit: You gain 1 additional hit point per HD. This feat stacks with Improved Toughness. In addition, when you are below half of your maximum hit points, you gain DR 5/-. Special: A fighter may select Unyielding Toughness as one of his fighter bonus feats. So when you can first get it: +6hp and below 50% DR 5/-, this okay when you first get it but as your levels get higher this become worse and worse definitely when energy attack get thrown around. Undying Toughness [General] Prerequisites: Base Fort Save +8 Benefit: You gain 2 additional hit points per HD. This feat stacks with Improved Toughness and Unyielding Toughness. In addition, You become Disabled at -10 hp, Dying at -11 to -19 hp, and Die at -20 hp. Normal: You become Disabled at 0 hp, Dying at -1 to -9 hp, and Die at -10 hp. Special: A fighter may select Undying Toughness as one of his fighter bonus feats. It's okay, but like the other higher levels is becomes less and less helpful. These are nowhere near too powerful, I doubt anyone in the group will cry foul just because you survived on additional hit, but are still dying. The additional hit points are fine, it just other effect doesn't really do all that much. |
| Bahumut01-05-08, 10:12 PM | as has been seen from the original feats, it is nigh impossible to make Toughness feats that aren't too powerful on the low end, and don't blow horribly at the high end. someone earlier in the thread may have the answer with using exponential growth instead of linear...ill make my minor tweaks, but they will remain relatively unchanged until later. |
| aelryinth01-05-08, 11:40 PM | 10 crappy feats. Hit points are only one defense. 10 crappy feats is still a LOT of feats, and he still has access to his general feats to pick up good ones that might just synergize really, really well. It's still overpowered. ===Aelryinth |
| Snazzomancer01-06-08, 02:27 PM | Alright folks, keep talking. Turns out I will have the oppurtunity to playtest these this Tuesday (Level 3 characters). Anyways, tell me what you think of these. :fight!: The (Compressed) Toughness Feat Chain!:fight!: Toughness [General/Toughness] You are much tougher than normal. Prequisites: Con 12 Benefits: You gain +4 hitpoints and an extra +1 hitpoints every 4 Character Levels/HD and heal lethal/non-lethal damage twice as fast. In addition, you gain a bonus on rolls (+1 per 4 HD) against all negative conditions except confusion and fascination. Special: A character may take this feat multiple times. It's +hitpoint effects stack -A fighter may take toughness as a bonus feat -You may only take a number of feats with the Toughness descriptor equal to your Con Modifier/2+HD/5 Perservering Toughness [General/Toughness] Your resilience protects you from the elements as well as physical manuvers and burdens. Prequisites:Toughness, Con 14, Base Fort Save +2 Benefits: You gain +5 hitpoints and an extra +2 hitpoints for every 3 Character Levels/HD and a bonus against Bull Rush, Grapple, Overrun and Trip attempts equal to half your Con Modifier. Additionally, choose from one of the following six descriptors: acid, cold, electricity, fire, force, or sonic. You gain an energy resistance equal to the number of hit dice you possess divided by 3 (Round down) against the selected energy type. Furthermore, count your strength as 2 points higher for the purposes of carrying objects and add a +2 bonus on rolls for environmental checks, starvation & thirst, swim checks VS non-lethal damage, and forced marches. Special:A character may gain this feat multiple times. For every time the feat is taken, add +2 to the Base Fort Save perquisite. The additional HP effects stack, and a different energy type is chosen each time the feat is taken. The energy resistance stacks with those granted by spells, abilities and other effects. -A fighter may take Tenacious Toughness as a bonus feat -THe additional hitpoints granted by this feat cannot Tenacious Toughness [General/Toughness] You've got so much spunk opponents may wear themselves out trying to take you down. Prequisites:Perservering Toughness, Con 18, 8+ HD, +4 Base Fort Save Benefits:You gain +6 hitpoints and an additional +2 hitpoints for every 2 Character levels/HD as well as the ability to act disabled while at negative hitpoints. Additionally, whenever you are struck in melee for an amount equal to up to x1.5 con score, the attacker takes damage equal to half your Con modifer and must roll a Save (DC 10+HD/2+Con Mod) or become fatigued. Furthermore, you only take 1/2 as much ability damage to all your scores except Intelligence and Charisma. Special:A character may gain this feat multiple times; for every time the feat is taken, add +4 to the Base Fort Save perquisite. The additional HP effects stack. -A fighter may take toughness as a bonus feat Relentless Toughness Your body is hellbent on surviving anything and everything. Prequisites:Tenacious Toughness, Con 20, Base Fort Save +5, 12+ HD Benefits: You gain +8 hitpoints and an additional +3 hitpoints for every 2 Character Levels/HD; you also die at your negative Con score (Everything between is now dying). Furthermore, you gain damage reduction/- equal to the number of Toughness feats you possess, and may add half your Con score to will and reflex saves. Special:A fighter may take toughness as a bonus feat I think these might be a little overpowered, and more comparable to the 4E feats Aelrynith keeps bringing up. Neverthless, I will run these by the DM as well. Edit: My EDITS are in blue. |
| aelryinth01-06-08, 05:18 PM | One thing you may want to do is put in a simple caveat that you cannot exceed your maximum hp/level by HD using the later feats. That prevents whopping abuse from low HD creatures/classes, but won't affect other classes much at all. I really think that at later levels just giving a nice HP boost + some other effect is a better way to go then mounds and mounds of HP AND other stuff. I'd also not allow multiple times taking the Toughness feat. That's pretty excessive, unless you put the cap on the max HP you can gain, above. ===Aelryinth |
| Bahumut01-06-08, 11:44 PM | here's another revision of my Imp. Toughness feat chain, with a new end feat. again, more evaluations are needed. also, these feats are 3.5 and meant to be balanced against 3.5, not some phantom knowledge of 4E. keep that in mind. Undying Toughness [General] Prerequisites: Base Fort Save +5, Improved Toughness Benefit: You gain 1 additional hit points per HD. This feat stacks with Improved Toughness and Unyielding Toughness. In addition, The range of your Dying state is increased to '-1 to -19 hp', and you Die at -20 hp. Normal: You become Disabled at 0 hp, Dying at -1 to -9 hp, and Die at -10 hp. Special: A fighter may select Undying Toughness as one of his fighter bonus feats. Unyielding Toughness [General] Prerequisites: Base Fort Save +5, Improved Toughness Benefit: You gain 1 additional hit point per HD. This feat stacks with Improved Toughness and Undying Toughness. In addition, when you are below half of your maximum hit points, you gain DR X/- equal to (HD/2), rounded down. Special: A fighter may select Unyielding Toughness as one of his fighter bonus feats. Primordial Toughness [General] Prerequisites: Base Fort Save +8, Improved Toughness, Undying Toughness or Unyielding Toughness Benefit: You gain 2 additional hit point per HD. This feat stacks with Improved Toughness, Undying Toughness, and Unyielding Toughness. In addition, whenever you take damage from an energy type (fire, cold, electricity, acid, sonic, or force), you gain resistance equal to (HD/2) against that energy type for 5 rounds. Special: A fighter may select Primordial Toughness as one of his fighter bonus feats. another thing to remember: that last feat requires +8 base fort, impossible for single class characters without good fort saves. |
| Snazzomancer01-08-08, 06:59 AM | One thing you may want to do is put in a simple caveat that you cannot exceed your maximum hp/level by HD using the later feats. That prevents whopping abuse from low HD creatures/classes, but won't affect other classes much at all. I really think that at later levels just giving a nice HP boost + some other effect is a better way to go then mounds and mounds of HP AND other stuff. I'd also not allow multiple times taking the Toughness feat. That's pretty excessive, unless you put the cap on the max HP you can gain, above. ===Aelryinth How big should this cap be? ( I don't have time to run numbers atm). Remember, I already put a cap on the number of feats you could take, IE. a Level 20 fighter with 26 Con could only take 8 toughness feats max (I won't deny this isn't alot which is why I nerfed the base health gain a litle bit.) |