Toughness question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Toughness question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Aardvark7
07-01-07, 02:26 AM I am relatively new to D&D, however my DM is not. I purchased the toughness feat and my DM says that it increases my character's hp by 3every level. I don't see how that's possible since the feat only says "you gain +3 hit points." Could you please shed some light on the matter.
Salla
07-01-07, 02:30 AM Your DM is wrong. :)
ishpu
07-01-07, 02:30 AM yeah it's only 3 hps... not 3 per lvl. perhaps he hasn't read it that well, or is trying to give you some sort of break on your first character?
Vegepygmy
07-01-07, 02:32 AM The DM probably read the feat description and thought (as most of us did the first time we read it): "This feat can't really be that lame!"
monai75
07-01-07, 02:40 AM Dm is wrong......toughness is a relatively small feat. The extra 3 hit points are the game mechanics way of saying your character is a bit more resilient than most in the physical endurance category. But your DM is most likely helping you out a bit much, or has not read the fine print.
Tectorman
07-01-07, 03:10 AM Toughness gives you 3 hit points.

Improved Toughness gives you 1 hit point for every HD you have.

Then your DM made Toughness grant 3 hp per HD.

His rule is a houserule or a misread.
Rondulin
07-01-07, 01:05 PM Well, I wouldn't argue with my DM about this one;) .
General_Ridley
07-01-07, 02:34 PM just thank your DM for this.
Vintar
07-01-07, 03:19 PM The reason toughness stinks so much is to be used as a pre-req for really awesome stuff. Many prestiges / feats that would otherwise be a bit overpowered are given a crappy pre-req or two to balance it out. An example of this would be having to take True Believer for pious templar. Other examples abound - but can't think of any off the tip of my brain.
dungeoneerphil
07-01-07, 04:26 PM Good point. Weren't there also a load of variant Toughness feats in Masters of the Wild that slapped increasingly large numbers of hp on characters who took them -- but each variant had all the less powerful variants as prerequisites? It's been a while since I looked it up, admittedly, and I've never used it myself...
Qwicksilver
07-01-07, 04:46 PM You know I used to think toughness sucked, like sucked to high heavens sucked. Then I played a lvl1 character and let me tell you, there are times when those 3 hp look so tempting. But after extremely low levels that toughness feat you took seems like such a waste.
InkBlot
07-01-07, 05:17 PM Good point. Weren't there also a load of variant Toughness feats in Masters of the Wild that slapped increasingly large numbers of hp on characters who took them -- but each variant had all the less powerful variants as prerequisites? It's been a while since I looked it up, admittedly, and I've never used it myself...

All those feats were updated in Complete Warrior as Improved Toughness.

Edit: In case anyone was wondering where I got that information, on the DnD website there's a big list of things that were updated from 3.0, where they can be found, and what their new names are.

Edit II: Son Of Edit: Here's a link to that list. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20050110x)
Salla
07-01-07, 06:37 PM If your DM is using the retraining rules from the PHBII, Toughness actually has its uses. Take it at 1st level for your wizard or sorcerer (or wu jen or ...), then after about 4th level when you're in less danger of getting insta-gibbed, exchange it for a metamagic feat you can now use.
pupilofyah
07-03-07, 01:01 PM If your DM is using the retraining rules from the PHBII, Toughness actually has its uses. Take it at 1st level for your wizard or sorcerer (or wu jen or ...), then after about 4th level when you're in less danger of getting insta-gibbed, exchange it for a metamagic feat you can now use.

that would be great but read the rules. you cant do what you just described. you have to pick something you could have done back then. that being said it is a good idea to do it this way. say toughness then trade it for iron will or something.
Salla
07-03-07, 01:04 PM that would be great but read the rules. you cant do what you just described. you have to pick something you could have done back then. that being said it is a good idea to do it this way. say toughness then trade it for iron will or something.

The metamagic feats (at least, the PHB ones) have no prerequisites. You *can* take Maximize Spell at 1st level, it just doesn't do you any good. Heck, you can take Maximize Spell and never have a level of a spellcasting class. It'd be a waste of a feat, but you could do it.

So subbing out your 1st level Toughness for, say, Empower Spell is perfectly legal.
Someone
07-03-07, 01:04 PM I think what Salla meant was "a metamagic feat you now have the spell slots to use". There's nothing stopping you from taking quicken spell at 1st level, you just won't be able to apply it to anything.

[edit]uh, what Salla said.
tarkin
07-03-07, 01:21 PM Toughness continues to be a feat with three very helpfull uses.

1. At low levels (first) it is a good feat for a low hp character.

2. At medium levels it is a pre-req for some really cool things. You want the Premium Prestige Classes, you have to PAY for them. (Dwarven Defender for example). No, you can NOT just use a similar feat that is helpfull (i.e. Improved Toughness). Part of the cost of being a Dwarven Defender is that you have to take a sucky feat in order to get the really cool abilities

3. At higher levels you can also trade it out for a feat you qualified for at low levels but was not very helpfull, such as say Quicken.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Aardvark7 07-01-07, 02:26 AM	I am relatively new to D&D, however my DM is not. I purchased the toughness feat and my DM says that it increases my character's hp by 3every level. I don't see how that's possible since the feat only says "you gain +3 hit points." Could you please shed some light on the matter.
Salla 07-01-07, 02:30 AM	Your DM is wrong. :)
ishpu 07-01-07, 02:30 AM	yeah it's only 3 hps... not 3 per lvl. perhaps he hasn't read it that well, or is trying to give you some sort of break on your first character?
Vegepygmy 07-01-07, 02:32 AM	The DM probably read the feat description and thought (as most of us did the first time we read it): "This feat can't really be that lame!"
monai75 07-01-07, 02:40 AM	Dm is wrong......toughness is a relatively small feat. The extra 3 hit points are the game mechanics way of saying your character is a bit more resilient than most in the physical endurance category. But your DM is most likely helping you out a bit much, or has not read the fine print.
Tectorman 07-01-07, 03:10 AM	Toughness gives you 3 hit points. Improved Toughness gives you 1 hit point for every HD you have. Then your DM made Toughness grant 3 hp per HD. His rule is a houserule or a misread.
Rondulin 07-01-07, 01:05 PM	Well, I wouldn't argue with my DM about this one;) .
General_Ridley 07-01-07, 02:34 PM	just thank your DM for this.
Vintar 07-01-07, 03:19 PM	The reason toughness stinks so much is to be used as a pre-req for really awesome stuff. Many prestiges / feats that would otherwise be a bit overpowered are given a crappy pre-req or two to balance it out. An example of this would be having to take True Believer for pious templar. Other examples abound - but can't think of any off the tip of my brain.
dungeoneerphil 07-01-07, 04:26 PM	Good point. Weren't there also a load of variant Toughness feats in Masters of the Wild that slapped increasingly large numbers of hp on characters who took them -- but each variant had all the less powerful variants as prerequisites? It's been a while since I looked it up, admittedly, and I've never used it myself...
Qwicksilver 07-01-07, 04:46 PM	You know I used to think toughness sucked, like sucked to high heavens sucked. Then I played a lvl1 character and let me tell you, there are times when those 3 hp look so tempting. But after extremely low levels that toughness feat you took seems like such a waste.
InkBlot 07-01-07, 05:17 PM	Good point. Weren't there also a load of variant Toughness feats in Masters of the Wild that slapped increasingly large numbers of hp on characters who took them -- but each variant had all the less powerful variants as prerequisites? It's been a while since I looked it up, admittedly, and I've never used it myself... All those feats were updated in Complete Warrior as Improved Toughness. Edit: In case anyone was wondering where I got that information, on the DnD website there's a big list of things that were updated from 3.0, where they can be found, and what their new names are. Edit II: Son Of Edit: Here's a link to that list. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20050110x)
Salla 07-01-07, 06:37 PM	If your DM is using the retraining rules from the PHBII, Toughness actually has its uses. Take it at 1st level for your wizard or sorcerer (or wu jen or ...), then after about 4th level when you're in less danger of getting insta-gibbed, exchange it for a metamagic feat you can now use.
pupilofyah 07-03-07, 01:01 PM	If your DM is using the retraining rules from the PHBII, Toughness actually has its uses. Take it at 1st level for your wizard or sorcerer (or wu jen or ...), then after about 4th level when you're in less danger of getting insta-gibbed, exchange it for a metamagic feat you can now use. that would be great but read the rules. you cant do what you just described. you have to pick something you could have done back then. that being said it is a good idea to do it this way. say toughness then trade it for iron will or something.
Salla 07-03-07, 01:04 PM	that would be great but read the rules. you cant do what you just described. you have to pick something you could have done back then. that being said it is a good idea to do it this way. say toughness then trade it for iron will or something. The metamagic feats (at least, the PHB ones) have no prerequisites. You can take Maximize Spell at 1st level, it just doesn't do you any good. Heck, you can take Maximize Spell and never have a level of a spellcasting class. It'd be a waste of a feat, but you could do it. So subbing out your 1st level Toughness for, say, Empower Spell is perfectly legal.
Someone 07-03-07, 01:04 PM	I think what Salla meant was "a metamagic feat you now have the spell slots to use". There's nothing stopping you from taking quicken spell at 1st level, you just won't be able to apply it to anything. [edit]uh, what Salla said.
tarkin 07-03-07, 01:21 PM	Toughness continues to be a feat with three very helpfull uses. 1. At low levels (first) it is a good feat for a low hp character. 2. At medium levels it is a pre-req for some really cool things. You want the Premium Prestige Classes, you have to PAY for them. (Dwarven Defender for example). No, you can NOT just use a similar feat that is helpfull (i.e. Improved Toughness). Part of the cost of being a Dwarven Defender is that you have to take a sucky feat in order to get the really cool abilities 3. At higher levels you can also trade it out for a feat you qualified for at low levels but was not very helpfull, such as say Quicken.