Trading Skills for Feats [Archive] - Wizards Community

Trading Skills for Feats [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
CurbsideProphet
04-08-08, 07:32 PM Assembling a 7th level rogue today, my buddy realized he had a whopping 90 skill points to spend. He stated that he had no need of 90 skill points, and said, "can I just buy some feats with my skills?"

Now, in Mutants and Masterminds, a player has points to spend and purchase both feats and skills. 4 skill points cost one point, and a feat costs one point.

What if a player could spend 4 skill points to get a feat? Would this be balanced? What if for each feat prerequisite the feat had, it would cost two more points? For example, if a feat said, "requires toughness", the feat would cost 6 skill points, instead of 4.

What do you think?
BugHunter
04-08-08, 09:44 PM What kind of rogue is he trying to build that having 90 skill points is too many? There are something like 20+ skills for the class.
Horus_Sungod
04-08-08, 09:55 PM I don't think it exists (feats for skill points exist though). In many cases, characters would thrash their skills for more feats (I know I would!)

Fact is, your rogue probably needs more skills than feats, they are, after are, skill monkeys.
Tek_Jensen
04-08-08, 10:28 PM There's a feat you can take that gives you 4 skill points, so, based on that, it seems that your system is okay. I definately think you should limit the number of times a character can make the trade, say once every four levels, or you're likely to end up with players who take 20 extra feats.
Salla
04-08-08, 10:28 PM There's a feat that does the opposite; you use a Feat slot to get 5 skill points.

I'd be somewhat hesitant to reverse the process, though.
squidyak
04-08-08, 10:54 PM Whoa, you should definitely not allow that! A rogue could pick up two feats a level doing that. He could swap out 4 skill points every level to pick up toughness, and still get a feat to go along with increases in sneak attack, evasion, uncanny dodge, etc. So he'd basically be a fighter, but with more hit points, more feats, and a ton of extra abilities in exchange for a slightly slower BAB progression. If he doesn't want all those skill points and wants feats instead tell him to multi-class fighter/rogue.
SolEiji
04-08-08, 11:14 PM Why not have his fill of skill tricks from Comp. Scoundrel? Tons of useful mini-feats for the cost of 2 skill points each that he can use all day long (well, 1/battle anyway). But as the other posters said I can't imagine a situation where he'd have 'too many skill points'. You can never have enough skills, even if it's all 1 rank everywhere to use untrained skills.
Mad_Jack
04-08-08, 11:29 PM There's no such thing as too many skill points for a rogue.
If you max out a skill at every level, you'd spend 10 points on it by 7th level.
Maxing out move silently, hide, search, disable device, open lock, tumble, listen, and spot at each level brings you up to 80 points. That leaves you with *ten* points left over out of his 90 (which he thinks are far too many), and you wouldn't even have ranks in sleight of hand or escape artist... :confused:
If he has spare points he should put them into "non-rogue" skills like heal or speak language.

If he *really* has too many skill points, he should check out the "skill tricks" from Complete Scoundrel - you spend two skill points to gain what is essentially a low-calorie feat : an ability not quite powerful enough to justify spending a feat on, but still incredibly useful. There's easily at least ten or twelve points worth of skill tricks that are perfect for a rogue.
Kouk
04-09-08, 12:07 AM "Too many skill points" is like "Too much gold" or "Too much XP."

It just doesn't make sense, and it is surprisingly easy to use it all up if you try at all. :P
Lotus Crane
04-09-08, 12:28 AM Assembling a 7th level rogue today, my buddy realized he had a whopping 90 skill points to spend. He stated that he had no need of 90 skill points, and said, "can I just buy some feats with my skills?"
7th level with 90 skill points. So he's human, or has an Int of 12-13. 7th level means you could have a maximum of 10 ranks in a given skill, meaning up to 9 maxed out skills. Hmm, so 10 ranks each of Disable Device, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Open Lock, Search, Spot, Tumble, Use Magic Device. Hmm, there are a ton of other skills that I'd want to have ranks in too... 90 skill points isn't nearly enough for me.

That being said, you could make having fewer skill points a flaw, such as those presented in Unearthed Arcana. Generally speaking, flaws are 50% to 100% larger than the feats they represent the opposite of; for example, attack flaws give a -2 penalty as opposed to the +1 you'd get from Weapon Focus, save flaws give a -3 penalty as opposed to the +2 you'd get from Iron Will, etc.

So since we know that there are feats out there that provide 4 or 5 skill points, the flaw equivalent would cause you to lose 6 (+50% of 4) to 10 (+100% of 5) skill points. Of course, not all characters actually gain that many skill points per level, or even at 1st level, when skills are quadrupled, so you'd need a built in limitation to make sure that half-orc fighters with Int 3 weren't taking the flaw as a cheat.

POOR STUDENT
You don't learn skills as quickly as you probably should.
Effect: You have 4 less skill points at 1st level, and gain 1 less skill point at each additional level.
Special: You must have an Intelligence of 10 or higher to take this flaw.

Like any flaw, you could only ever take this once, so you'd get one more bonus feat out of it. I wouldn't use Mutants and Masterminds as a precedent for freely swapping around skills and feats, since D&D has many more and different feats than M&M, and class structure and character generation for the two games just aren't comparable, even if they both use D20 as the core gameplay mechanic.
BronzeBeard
04-09-08, 03:46 AM "Too many skill points" is like "Too much gold" or "Too much XP."

It just doesn't make sense, and it is surprisingly easy to use it all up if you try at all. :P

Kouk's right.
Besides, I can already imagine the Evilgasms the guyz at the optimazion board would get if I tell them that you could switch skill points onto feat. Think about that - all you need is rogue, max int., and the variant from Unearthed Arcana that give rogue the bonus fighter feat progress... that's like... 87 feats!! :eek: :OMG!
You know what I can do with that?

Besides, think for a moment about the differences between skills and feat. On skills you still have to roll whilst feat rarly don't work:

Mobility vs. tumble
Keep up vs. Balance
etc.

And personlly, when I take rogue I'm always short on some skill points.
CurbsideProphet
04-09-08, 03:59 PM So the general consensus is no, then? Looking at everyone's explanations, I think I agree. He did end up spending his skills, but was wondering about that. I like the "Poor Student" thing.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
CurbsideProphet 04-08-08, 07:32 PM	Assembling a 7th level rogue today, my buddy realized he had a whopping 90 skill points to spend. He stated that he had no need of 90 skill points, and said, "can I just buy some feats with my skills?" Now, in Mutants and Masterminds, a player has points to spend and purchase both feats and skills. 4 skill points cost one point, and a feat costs one point. What if a player could spend 4 skill points to get a feat? Would this be balanced? What if for each feat prerequisite the feat had, it would cost two more points? For example, if a feat said, "requires toughness", the feat would cost 6 skill points, instead of 4. What do you think?
BugHunter 04-08-08, 09:44 PM	What kind of rogue is he trying to build that having 90 skill points is too many? There are something like 20+ skills for the class.
Horus_Sungod 04-08-08, 09:55 PM	I don't think it exists (feats for skill points exist though). In many cases, characters would thrash their skills for more feats (I know I would!) Fact is, your rogue probably needs more skills than feats, they are, after are, skill monkeys.
Tek_Jensen 04-08-08, 10:28 PM	There's a feat you can take that gives you 4 skill points, so, based on that, it seems that your system is okay. I definately think you should limit the number of times a character can make the trade, say once every four levels, or you're likely to end up with players who take 20 extra feats.
Salla 04-08-08, 10:28 PM	There's a feat that does the opposite; you use a Feat slot to get 5 skill points. I'd be somewhat hesitant to reverse the process, though.
squidyak 04-08-08, 10:54 PM	Whoa, you should definitely not allow that! A rogue could pick up two feats a level doing that. He could swap out 4 skill points every level to pick up toughness, and still get a feat to go along with increases in sneak attack, evasion, uncanny dodge, etc. So he'd basically be a fighter, but with more hit points, more feats, and a ton of extra abilities in exchange for a slightly slower BAB progression. If he doesn't want all those skill points and wants feats instead tell him to multi-class fighter/rogue.
SolEiji 04-08-08, 11:14 PM	Why not have his fill of skill tricks from Comp. Scoundrel? Tons of useful mini-feats for the cost of 2 skill points each that he can use all day long (well, 1/battle anyway). But as the other posters said I can't imagine a situation where he'd have 'too many skill points'. You can never have enough skills, even if it's all 1 rank everywhere to use untrained skills.
Mad_Jack 04-08-08, 11:29 PM	There's no such thing as too many skill points for a rogue. If you max out a skill at every level, you'd spend 10 points on it by 7th level. Maxing out move silently, hide, search, disable device, open lock, tumble, listen, and spot at each level brings you up to 80 points. That leaves you with ten points left over out of his 90 (which he thinks are far too many), and you wouldn't even have ranks in sleight of hand or escape artist... :confused: If he has spare points he should put them into "non-rogue" skills like heal or speak language. If he really has too many skill points, he should check out the "skill tricks" from Complete Scoundrel - you spend two skill points to gain what is essentially a low-calorie feat : an ability not quite powerful enough to justify spending a feat on, but still incredibly useful. There's easily at least ten or twelve points worth of skill tricks that are perfect for a rogue.
Kouk 04-09-08, 12:07 AM	"Too many skill points" is like "Too much gold" or "Too much XP." It just doesn't make sense, and it is surprisingly easy to use it all up if you try at all. :P
Lotus Crane 04-09-08, 12:28 AM	Assembling a 7th level rogue today, my buddy realized he had a whopping 90 skill points to spend. He stated that he had no need of 90 skill points, and said, "can I just buy some feats with my skills?" 7th level with 90 skill points. So he's human, or has an Int of 12-13. 7th level means you could have a maximum of 10 ranks in a given skill, meaning up to 9 maxed out skills. Hmm, so 10 ranks each of Disable Device, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Open Lock, Search, Spot, Tumble, Use Magic Device. Hmm, there are a ton of other skills that I'd want to have ranks in too... 90 skill points isn't nearly enough for me. That being said, you could make having fewer skill points a flaw, such as those presented in Unearthed Arcana. Generally speaking, flaws are 50% to 100% larger than the feats they represent the opposite of; for example, attack flaws give a -2 penalty as opposed to the +1 you'd get from Weapon Focus, save flaws give a -3 penalty as opposed to the +2 you'd get from Iron Will, etc. So since we know that there are feats out there that provide 4 or 5 skill points, the flaw equivalent would cause you to lose 6 (+50% of 4) to 10 (+100% of 5) skill points. Of course, not all characters actually gain that many skill points per level, or even at 1st level, when skills are quadrupled, so you'd need a built in limitation to make sure that half-orc fighters with Int 3 weren't taking the flaw as a cheat. POOR STUDENT You don't learn skills as quickly as you probably should. Effect: You have 4 less skill points at 1st level, and gain 1 less skill point at each additional level. Special: You must have an Intelligence of 10 or higher to take this flaw. Like any flaw, you could only ever take this once, so you'd get one more bonus feat out of it. I wouldn't use Mutants and Masterminds as a precedent for freely swapping around skills and feats, since D&D has many more and different feats than M&M, and class structure and character generation for the two games just aren't comparable, even if they both use D20 as the core gameplay mechanic.
BronzeBeard 04-09-08, 03:46 AM	"Too many skill points" is like "Too much gold" or "Too much XP." It just doesn't make sense, and it is surprisingly easy to use it all up if you try at all. :P Kouk's right. Besides, I can already imagine the Evilgasms the guyz at the optimazion board would get if I tell them that you could switch skill points onto feat. Think about that - all you need is rogue, max int., and the variant from Unearthed Arcana that give rogue the bonus fighter feat progress... that's like... 87 feats!! :eek: :OMG! You know what I can do with that? Besides, think for a moment about the differences between skills and feat. On skills you still have to roll whilst feat rarly don't work: Mobility vs. tumble Keep up vs. Balance etc. And personlly, when I take rogue I'm always short on some skill points.
CurbsideProphet 04-09-08, 03:59 PM	So the general consensus is no, then? Looking at everyone's explanations, I think I agree. He did end up spending his skills, but was wondering about that. I like the "Poor Student" thing.