Trading starter feats. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Trading starter feats. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Inlad_The_Dashing_Paladin
03-10-08, 11:43 PM Something I do a lot is trade starter feats, ones labeled as class features, for feats more suited to my character build. For example; When I play a ranger with the Archery Combat Style, I trade Shield Proficiency for an archery feat.
My question is; What are your opinions on this, and do you think it's balanced?

~Inlad
Kouk
03-11-08, 02:00 AM That is inherently unbalanced. You trade away feats and abilities you don't want and will likely never use, to get feats you do want and will always use in the best possible manner.

No trade-off there, just a net gain in power.

EDIT: A similar idea is in Character Flaws, presented in Unearthed Arcana and available here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm

The idea is that you take a penalty in some fashion which is theoretically equivalent to a feat, and gain a bonus feat. However, even this is inherently unbalanced because you can easily take Flaws which are mechanically unimportant to your character for ones which are very useful.

Still, it is better than straight trading out entirely useless things for useful things -- there is still a penalty beyond not knowing how to use shields.
Kouk
03-11-08, 02:23 AM Let me make a slight amendment to my earlier statement: It is unbalanced unless you allow all players and monsters to do the same thing.

Theoretically, if everyone in the entire game can do that as they want, it should maintain a degree of balance. However, it will also make the game more complicated and blur the classes together.
Zavia
03-11-08, 02:32 AM it may or may not blur the classes. A person could further specialize into something that makes it stand further apart from other classes.
mplindustries
03-11-08, 02:49 AM Something I do a lot is trade starter feats, ones labeled as class features, for feats more suited to my character build. For example; When I play a ranger with the Archery Combat Style, I trade Shield Proficiency for an archery feat.
My question is; What are your opinions on this, and do you think it's balanced?

~Inlad

I would never give up shield proficiency on an archer build. Bucklers can be used without penalty when you use a bow.

Edit: Also, what he said about balance. You can't do that. Even though taking martial weapon proficiency or shield proficiency or something like that costs a feat, it is certainly not worth a feat. That'd be like trading the free Alertness you get from a familiar for some Metamagic. Some feats just aren't actually worth taking.
HARLEYDUDE
03-11-08, 12:03 PM We have a house rule that allows us to trade in redundant proficiencies for feats. This comes in handy when you take a level dip in fighter when you are the rest of levels in, say cleric for example. they both get all the armor prof. However you have to trade in for 2 to 1. ie. light armor and medium armor trade for XXX feat. The only exception is the martial weapon prof. that is on a 1-1 trade. All of the trades can only be traded for a feat that is on the fighter bonus feat list. You cant trade for a metamagic feat for example.

Yes it is allowed for PC's as well as monsters and NPC's
HD
MrWildman
03-11-08, 12:40 PM I regularly offer my players "customized" class levels, inspired by the racial substitution levels and UA-style variant classes. I do the same thing with races, too, sometimes. I've been DMing long enough to feel comfortable mixing-and-matching abilities and powers, and my players like the "personal touch"

For instance, we've just welcomed two new players into our little group (one with AD&D memories, the other a tabula rasa). Since I had really pushed the whole "You can be anything you want!" angle I kinda had to put up or shut up when they said they'd like to play a leprechaun and a winged fairy. :eek:

I quickly took a gnome and a halfling and gave them new paint jobs. Gnome loses alchemy bonus, gains bonus on appraise checks. Halfling gets butterfly wings and a +1 LA, and loses her +4 to hide small size bonus. And so on.
Same thing with class features, if a player's concept is better served by an alternate ability, well then...instant substitution level.

I also let my players know I'm doing the same thing with NPCs and monsters, of course.

Peace.
Orenmir
03-11-08, 02:06 PM That is inherently unbalanced. You trade away feats and abilities you don't want and will likely never use, to get feats you do want and will always use in the best possible manner.

No trade-off there, just a net gain in power.

EDIT: A similar idea is in Character Flaws, presented in Unearthed Arcana and available here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm

The idea is that you take a penalty in some fashion which is theoretically equivalent to a feat, and gain a bonus feat. However, even this is inherently unbalanced because you can easily take Flaws which are mechanically unimportant to your character for ones which are very useful.

Still, it is better than straight trading out entirely useless things for useful things -- there is still a penalty beyond not knowing how to use shields.

Flaws can be balanced if you let the DM choose them. ;) Of course, the DM should choose Flaws that will have an actual impact on your character.
Krusk
03-11-08, 03:16 PM Flaws can be balanced if you let the DM choose them. ;) Of course, the DM should choose Flaws that will have an actual impact on your character.

Or you could use flaws like I do when I DM. I have a list of flaws you can take, and every single one is quite a penalty to generally every character. If it isn't a penalty to yoru character, (like the one that turns your rage into a frenzy) then you are not able to take it. In exchange you can get a feat.

There is generally no way to get around their penalties, and they are about inversly as powerful as a fairly good feat.
Orenmir
03-11-08, 03:44 PM Or you could use flaws like I do when I DM. I have a list of flaws you can take, and every single one is quite a penalty to generally every character. If it isn't a penalty to yoru character, (like the one that turns your rage into a frenzy) then you are not able to take it. In exchange you can get a feat.

There is generally no way to get around their penalties, and they are about inversly as powerful as a fairly good feat.

Sounds interesting... Can you post them?
Mojo_Rat
03-11-08, 04:55 PM This idea is inherently flawed. The main thing is as somone said earlier Abilities one class posesses That noraly cost a feat for others to learn are in fact not feats.

So the Ranger who has the ability to use shields Does not have the shield feat, he just has the ability to use shields. Likewise Fighters dont get 5000 feats when they learn every martial weapon inthe game. It would be horribly unbalanced to trade in the ability to use several types of pole arms and gaining 4 feats out of it.

Likewise In the cleric example above it just makes level dipping into fighter that more more appealing as Your given them 2 feats for one level how is this balanced?
Krusk
03-12-08, 08:41 AM Sounds interesting... Can you post them?

Well the original ones are in the SRD, or found in unearthed arcana. The original ones are generally not a big penalty and you can for instance take the one where you roll concealment twice taking the worst, as a melee fighter and never have to make a chack on it once.

Mine essentially take those and make them actual penalties. I might get a post of them up on the unearthed arcana forum here by the end of the day though.
MrWildman
03-12-08, 09:03 AM I agree with Krusk about the flaws. Dragon Magazine ran many pages of flaws customized for certain classes and races that my group uses all the time.

And as Mojo Rat and others have said, the idea of trading starting features like rookie cards is just begging for trouble. I haggle with my players over alternate features and they know I bargain hard. I had a player who wanted an axe-throwing ranger, but didn't like the range increment. "Want Far Shot? Cost you Wild Empathy and your animal companion." After a session of impassioned debate over balanced benefits everyone is rarin' to go and test 'em out!
But to say that each Martial Weapon is available for trade is, as said, unworkable.

Peace.
Cartigan
03-12-08, 09:46 AM I would never give up shield proficiency on an archer build. Bucklers can be used without penalty when you use a bow.
Do you lose the AC penalty and get the -1 to attacks when using a buckler with a bow?
Sunic_Flames
03-12-08, 10:59 AM And MW bucklers can be used without penalty without being proficient in shield use. ^.^
Inlad_The_Dashing_Paladin
03-12-08, 01:13 PM Kouk: Thanks for that link. I'll be sure to look into that.
And yes, everyone can do this, if they want.
And I agree with Zavia on the class blurring thing.

mplindustries: As Sunic_Flames said, a MW buckler gets around that (though I never really liked bucklers much. . .dunno why)
I don't really think it's as silly as exchanging Alertness for some Meta magic. Those are on different levels and aren't really trade material.

Harley Dude: That's sorta what I was talking about, but more of a one for one trade.

Orenmir: uhhhhh. . .why on earth would I let my DM chose them? I'm trying to customize here. XD
Mojo Rat: I get what your saying, but that really doesn't make much sense, in my opinion.

Krusk: I'd be interested in those flaws. Maybe you could give us a link to any thread you start? Please?

Mrwildman: I agree that trading a fighters Martial weapon proficiency's as one weapon=one feat would be ridiculous (Who the hell needs THAT many feats?) But I think that treating the whole thing as one feat would be pretty fair. You lose access to most of the good weapons in the game, for whatever feat you can get at 1st level.

Cartigan: I believe that you keep the AC Bonus when you use a bow or crossbow. And their's no penalty to attacks when using a bow or cross bow while wielding a buckler.

Sunic_Flame: . . .I was going to say that! XD

Something I may have forgotten to add; you trade feats for ones of equal or lesser power. I'm trying to customized, not brake the game.
Thank you all for your opinions!
P:S. Plz don't let my having responded kill the thread!!!

~Inlad
Sunic_Flames
03-12-08, 01:16 PM Cartigan: I believe that you keep the AC Bonus when you use a bow or crossbow. And their's no penalty to attacks when using a bow or cross bow while wielding a buckler.

Which given the fact bucklers are alternately known as 'bowman's shields' makes perfect sense.
Mojo_Rat
03-12-08, 05:51 PM Kouk: Thanks for that link. I'll be sure to look into that.
And yes, everyone can do this, if they want.
And I agree with Zavia on the class blurring thing.

mplindustries: As Sunic_Flames said, a MW buckler gets around that (though I never really liked bucklers much. . .dunno why)
I don't really think it's as silly as exchanging Alertness for some Meta magic. Those are on different levels and aren't really trade material.

Harley Dude: That's sorta what I was talking about, but more of a one for one trade.

Orenmir: uhhhhh. . .why on earth would I let my DM chose them? I'm trying to customize here. XD
Mojo Rat: I get what your saying, but that really doesn't make much sense, in my opinion.

Krusk: I'd be interested in those flaws. Maybe you could give us a link to any thread you start? Please?

Mrwildman: I agree that trading a fighters Martial weapon proficiency's as one weapon=one feat would be ridiculous (Who the hell needs THAT many feats?) But I think that treating the whole thing as one feat would be pretty fair. You lose access to most of the good weapons in the game, for whatever feat you can get at 1st level.

Cartigan: I believe that you keep the AC Bonus when you use a bow or crossbow. And their's no penalty to attacks when using a bow or cross bow while wielding a buckler.

Sunic_Flame: . . .I was going to say that! XD

Something I may have forgotten to add; you trade feats for ones of equal or lesser power. I'm trying to customized, not brake the game.
Thank you all for your opinions!
P:S. Plz don't let my having responded kill the thread!!!

~Inlad

what I was trying to Illustrate using my Pole arm example Is that a Fighter Or ranger who as the ability to use shields does not in fact have the shield /feat/. They have the ability to use shields.

So a Fighter who knows all martal weapons does not posess 5000000 feats he just has the ability to use all Martial weapons. By tradig the Rangers shield use for say point blank shot you are in fact granting them the benefit of trading a feat they dont have.

Now trading the rangers /track/ feat for point blank shot is clearly a Feat and would probly be an exceptable trade. You would just be a lousy ranger after.

The reason there is a shield feat in the book isnt because knowledge of shields Is a feat. Its just that this is the only way witi the system to grant people who dont know how to use shields the ability to do so if they wish.

anyhow Its a bad Idea,
mplindustries
03-12-08, 07:00 PM Do you lose the AC penalty and get the -1 to attacks when using a buckler with a bow?

According to the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/armor.htm):

"This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm. You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it. You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a -1 penalty on attack rolls..." (Emphasis Mine)

Not only does it explicitly say the penalties do not apply with a bow or crossbow, it uses the word "also" to suggest the rest of the paragraph applies to a situation other than a bow or crossbow. I'd conclude that the archer does not lose their AC bonus either, but I suppose that could be arguable.
Krusk
03-12-08, 08:43 PM for people curious about my flaws http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=15326492&postcount=7
Cartigan
03-13-08, 08:38 AM Cartigan: I believe that you keep the AC Bonus when you use a bow or crossbow. And their's no penalty to attacks when using a bow or cross bow while wielding a buckler.
That makes some sense. I have to get a Buckler of Deathward for my other game now -_-

I'm curious what Dragon Magazine the flaws are in.
Sunic_Flames
03-13-08, 01:54 PM With that +5 AC vs ranged crystal. ^.^
MrWildman
03-18-08, 01:47 AM I'm curious what Dragon Magazine the flaws are in.

My sloppy notes say that #324 has flaws for Bards. The issues in that range, maybe 320-330 or so, had a number of articles on flaws. They were mainly in the "Class Acts" section in the back, though there is one issue with a feature on flaws for dwarves, elves, etc.

Peace.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Inlad_The_Dashing_Paladin 03-10-08, 11:43 PM	Something I do a lot is trade starter feats, ones labeled as class features, for feats more suited to my character build. For example; When I play a ranger with the Archery Combat Style, I trade Shield Proficiency for an archery feat. My question is; What are your opinions on this, and do you think it's balanced? ~Inlad
Kouk 03-11-08, 02:00 AM	That is inherently unbalanced. You trade away feats and abilities you don't want and will likely never use, to get feats you do want and will always use in the best possible manner. No trade-off there, just a net gain in power. EDIT: A similar idea is in Character Flaws, presented in Unearthed Arcana and available here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm The idea is that you take a penalty in some fashion which is theoretically equivalent to a feat, and gain a bonus feat. However, even this is inherently unbalanced because you can easily take Flaws which are mechanically unimportant to your character for ones which are very useful. Still, it is better than straight trading out entirely useless things for useful things -- there is still a penalty beyond not knowing how to use shields.
Kouk 03-11-08, 02:23 AM	Let me make a slight amendment to my earlier statement: It is unbalanced unless you allow all players and monsters to do the same thing. Theoretically, if everyone in the entire game can do that as they want, it should maintain a degree of balance. However, it will also make the game more complicated and blur the classes together.
Zavia 03-11-08, 02:32 AM	it may or may not blur the classes. A person could further specialize into something that makes it stand further apart from other classes.
mplindustries 03-11-08, 02:49 AM	Something I do a lot is trade starter feats, ones labeled as class features, for feats more suited to my character build. For example; When I play a ranger with the Archery Combat Style, I trade Shield Proficiency for an archery feat. My question is; What are your opinions on this, and do you think it's balanced? ~Inlad I would never give up shield proficiency on an archer build. Bucklers can be used without penalty when you use a bow. Edit: Also, what he said about balance. You can't do that. Even though taking martial weapon proficiency or shield proficiency or something like that costs a feat, it is certainly not worth a feat. That'd be like trading the free Alertness you get from a familiar for some Metamagic. Some feats just aren't actually worth taking.
HARLEYDUDE 03-11-08, 12:03 PM	We have a house rule that allows us to trade in redundant proficiencies for feats. This comes in handy when you take a level dip in fighter when you are the rest of levels in, say cleric for example. they both get all the armor prof. However you have to trade in for 2 to 1. ie. light armor and medium armor trade for XXX feat. The only exception is the martial weapon prof. that is on a 1-1 trade. All of the trades can only be traded for a feat that is on the fighter bonus feat list. You cant trade for a metamagic feat for example. Yes it is allowed for PC's as well as monsters and NPC's HD
MrWildman 03-11-08, 12:40 PM	I regularly offer my players "customized" class levels, inspired by the racial substitution levels and UA-style variant classes. I do the same thing with races, too, sometimes. I've been DMing long enough to feel comfortable mixing-and-matching abilities and powers, and my players like the "personal touch" For instance, we've just welcomed two new players into our little group (one with AD&D memories, the other a tabula rasa). Since I had really pushed the whole "You can be anything you want!" angle I kinda had to put up or shut up when they said they'd like to play a leprechaun and a winged fairy. :eek: I quickly took a gnome and a halfling and gave them new paint jobs. Gnome loses alchemy bonus, gains bonus on appraise checks. Halfling gets butterfly wings and a +1 LA, and loses her +4 to hide small size bonus. And so on. Same thing with class features, if a player's concept is better served by an alternate ability, well then...instant substitution level. I also let my players know I'm doing the same thing with NPCs and monsters, of course. Peace.
Orenmir 03-11-08, 02:06 PM	That is inherently unbalanced. You trade away feats and abilities you don't want and will likely never use, to get feats you do want and will always use in the best possible manner. No trade-off there, just a net gain in power. EDIT: A similar idea is in Character Flaws, presented in Unearthed Arcana and available here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm The idea is that you take a penalty in some fashion which is theoretically equivalent to a feat, and gain a bonus feat. However, even this is inherently unbalanced because you can easily take Flaws which are mechanically unimportant to your character for ones which are very useful. Still, it is better than straight trading out entirely useless things for useful things -- there is still a penalty beyond not knowing how to use shields. Flaws can be balanced if you let the DM choose them. ;) Of course, the DM should choose Flaws that will have an actual impact on your character.
Krusk 03-11-08, 03:16 PM	Flaws can be balanced if you let the DM choose them. ;) Of course, the DM should choose Flaws that will have an actual impact on your character. Or you could use flaws like I do when I DM. I have a list of flaws you can take, and every single one is quite a penalty to generally every character. If it isn't a penalty to yoru character, (like the one that turns your rage into a frenzy) then you are not able to take it. In exchange you can get a feat. There is generally no way to get around their penalties, and they are about inversly as powerful as a fairly good feat.
Orenmir 03-11-08, 03:44 PM	Or you could use flaws like I do when I DM. I have a list of flaws you can take, and every single one is quite a penalty to generally every character. If it isn't a penalty to yoru character, (like the one that turns your rage into a frenzy) then you are not able to take it. In exchange you can get a feat. There is generally no way to get around their penalties, and they are about inversly as powerful as a fairly good feat. Sounds interesting... Can you post them?
Mojo_Rat 03-11-08, 04:55 PM	This idea is inherently flawed. The main thing is as somone said earlier Abilities one class posesses That noraly cost a feat for others to learn are in fact not feats. So the Ranger who has the ability to use shields Does not have the shield feat, he just has the ability to use shields. Likewise Fighters dont get 5000 feats when they learn every martial weapon inthe game. It would be horribly unbalanced to trade in the ability to use several types of pole arms and gaining 4 feats out of it. Likewise In the cleric example above it just makes level dipping into fighter that more more appealing as Your given them 2 feats for one level how is this balanced?
Krusk 03-12-08, 08:41 AM	Sounds interesting... Can you post them? Well the original ones are in the SRD, or found in unearthed arcana. The original ones are generally not a big penalty and you can for instance take the one where you roll concealment twice taking the worst, as a melee fighter and never have to make a chack on it once. Mine essentially take those and make them actual penalties. I might get a post of them up on the unearthed arcana forum here by the end of the day though.
MrWildman 03-12-08, 09:03 AM	I agree with Krusk about the flaws. Dragon Magazine ran many pages of flaws customized for certain classes and races that my group uses all the time. And as Mojo Rat and others have said, the idea of trading starting features like rookie cards is just begging for trouble. I haggle with my players over alternate features and they know I bargain hard. I had a player who wanted an axe-throwing ranger, but didn't like the range increment. "Want Far Shot? Cost you Wild Empathy and your animal companion." After a session of impassioned debate over balanced benefits everyone is rarin' to go and test 'em out! But to say that each Martial Weapon is available for trade is, as said, unworkable. Peace.
Cartigan 03-12-08, 09:46 AM	I would never give up shield proficiency on an archer build. Bucklers can be used without penalty when you use a bow. Do you lose the AC penalty and get the -1 to attacks when using a buckler with a bow?
Sunic_Flames 03-12-08, 10:59 AM	And MW bucklers can be used without penalty without being proficient in shield use. ^.^
Inlad_The_Dashing_Paladin 03-12-08, 01:13 PM	Kouk: Thanks for that link. I'll be sure to look into that. And yes, everyone can do this, if they want. And I agree with Zavia on the class blurring thing. mplindustries: As Sunic_Flames said, a MW buckler gets around that (though I never really liked bucklers much. . .dunno why) I don't really think it's as silly as exchanging Alertness for some Meta magic. Those are on different levels and aren't really trade material. Harley Dude: That's sorta what I was talking about, but more of a one for one trade. Orenmir: uhhhhh. . .why on earth would I let my DM chose them? I'm trying to customize here. XD Mojo Rat: I get what your saying, but that really doesn't make much sense, in my opinion. Krusk: I'd be interested in those flaws. Maybe you could give us a link to any thread you start? Please? Mrwildman: I agree that trading a fighters Martial weapon proficiency's as one weapon=one feat would be ridiculous (Who the hell needs THAT many feats?) But I think that treating the whole thing as one feat would be pretty fair. You lose access to most of the good weapons in the game, for whatever feat you can get at 1st level. Cartigan: I believe that you keep the AC Bonus when you use a bow or crossbow. And their's no penalty to attacks when using a bow or cross bow while wielding a buckler. Sunic_Flame: . . .I was going to say that! XD Something I may have forgotten to add; you trade feats for ones of equal or lesser power. I'm trying to customized, not brake the game. Thank you all for your opinions! P:S. Plz don't let my having responded kill the thread!!! ~Inlad
Sunic_Flames 03-12-08, 01:16 PM	Cartigan: I believe that you keep the AC Bonus when you use a bow or crossbow. And their's no penalty to attacks when using a bow or cross bow while wielding a buckler. Which given the fact bucklers are alternately known as 'bowman's shields' makes perfect sense.
Mojo_Rat 03-12-08, 05:51 PM	Kouk: Thanks for that link. I'll be sure to look into that. And yes, everyone can do this, if they want. And I agree with Zavia on the class blurring thing. mplindustries: As Sunic_Flames said, a MW buckler gets around that (though I never really liked bucklers much. . .dunno why) I don't really think it's as silly as exchanging Alertness for some Meta magic. Those are on different levels and aren't really trade material. Harley Dude: That's sorta what I was talking about, but more of a one for one trade. Orenmir: uhhhhh. . .why on earth would I let my DM chose them? I'm trying to customize here. XD Mojo Rat: I get what your saying, but that really doesn't make much sense, in my opinion. Krusk: I'd be interested in those flaws. Maybe you could give us a link to any thread you start? Please? Mrwildman: I agree that trading a fighters Martial weapon proficiency's as one weapon=one feat would be ridiculous (Who the hell needs THAT many feats?) But I think that treating the whole thing as one feat would be pretty fair. You lose access to most of the good weapons in the game, for whatever feat you can get at 1st level. Cartigan: I believe that you keep the AC Bonus when you use a bow or crossbow. And their's no penalty to attacks when using a bow or cross bow while wielding a buckler. Sunic_Flame: . . .I was going to say that! XD Something I may have forgotten to add; you trade feats for ones of equal or lesser power. I'm trying to customized, not brake the game. Thank you all for your opinions! P:S. Plz don't let my having responded kill the thread!!! ~Inlad what I was trying to Illustrate using my Pole arm example Is that a Fighter Or ranger who as the ability to use shields does not in fact have the shield /feat/. They have the ability to use shields. So a Fighter who knows all martal weapons does not posess 5000000 feats he just has the ability to use all Martial weapons. By tradig the Rangers shield use for say point blank shot you are in fact granting them the benefit of trading a feat they dont have. Now trading the rangers /track/ feat for point blank shot is clearly a Feat and would probly be an exceptable trade. You would just be a lousy ranger after. The reason there is a shield feat in the book isnt because knowledge of shields Is a feat. Its just that this is the only way witi the system to grant people who dont know how to use shields the ability to do so if they wish. anyhow Its a bad Idea,
mplindustries 03-12-08, 07:00 PM	Do you lose the AC penalty and get the -1 to attacks when using a buckler with a bow? According to the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/armor.htm): "This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm. You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it. You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a -1 penalty on attack rolls..." (Emphasis Mine) Not only does it explicitly say the penalties do not apply with a bow or crossbow, it uses the word "also" to suggest the rest of the paragraph applies to a situation other than a bow or crossbow. I'd conclude that the archer does not lose their AC bonus either, but I suppose that could be arguable.
Krusk 03-12-08, 08:43 PM	for people curious about my flaws http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=15326492&postcount=7
Cartigan 03-13-08, 08:38 AM	Cartigan: I believe that you keep the AC Bonus when you use a bow or crossbow. And their's no penalty to attacks when using a bow or cross bow while wielding a buckler. That makes some sense. I have to get a Buckler of Deathward for my other game now -_- I'm curious what Dragon Magazine the flaws are in.
Sunic_Flames 03-13-08, 01:54 PM	With that +5 AC vs ranged crystal. ^.^
MrWildman 03-18-08, 01:47 AM	I'm curious what Dragon Magazine the flaws are in. My sloppy notes say that #324 has flaws for Bards. The issues in that range, maybe 320-330 or so, had a number of articles on flaws. They were mainly in the "Class Acts" section in the back, though there is one issue with a feature on flaws for dwarves, elves, etc. Peace.