Post/Author/DateTime	Post
maskimus 02-17-07, 12:23 PM	Are there (m)any DMs out there that allow players to use the Traits and Flaws rules from Unearthed Arcana? All the DMs I play with do, and it adds a lot of fun to the character creation process. I wonder if anyone else has any interesting experiences with them, or, conversely, did anybody use them and then regret it?
hiryuu 02-17-07, 12:25 PM	I do, and in my d20 Modern game, I've got a lot of custom flaws and traits.
Rhuxley 02-17-07, 01:16 PM	I do too, it makes the game more intersting i think. I like it when players put thought into making their own traits & flaws. I think it helps make more interesting backstories and characters.
maskimus 02-17-07, 01:20 PM	What are some of the custom Flaws you or your players have created? I'd really be interested.
FrostHammer 02-17-07, 01:24 PM	I think there should be perks in addition to flaws, and you can take a perk or two instead of taking a feat when you get a flaw. My favorite combination is flaw (amnesia) + flaw (vivid flashbacks) + perk (photographic memory)
Limousine_Liberal 02-17-07, 04:41 PM	I've never allowed them in my games...nor has any DM in any game I have ever played in. Before readng these forums, I thought no one ever allowed them and they were just the stuff of hyper-optimizing powergamers' wet dreams.
Crimson_Concerto 02-17-07, 04:44 PM	I allow them but only if you pick a flaw that will actually affect your character at some point. For example, no more Shaky for every single melee character ever.
Rhuxley 02-17-07, 07:22 PM	I allow them but only if you pick a flaw that will actually affect your character at some point. For example, no more Shaky for every single melee character ever. Why not? it makes them only effective in melee. And a person who knew they were so shaky with long range weapons would probably never learn to use them. It makes sense story wise, and it makes them useless in any situation where they have to make any ranged roll. It bad for a spell caster cuz of ranged touch spells. really shaky is bad for everyone, even melee characters have to throw something every once in a while right?
Rhuxley 02-17-07, 07:23 PM	I think there should be perks in addition to flaws, and you can take a perk or two instead of taking a feat when you get a flaw. My favorite combination is flaw (amnesia) + flaw (vivid flashbacks) + perk (photographic memory) In which case, "photographic memory" is acceptable to use as a feat is it not? so isnt a perk & a feat the same thing?
FrostHammer 02-17-07, 07:26 PM	I tend to think of Perks as lesser feats. Not quite as good as an actual feat, but something cool nonetheless. Photographic memory does nothing for you in combat, for example.
Rhuxley 02-17-07, 07:32 PM	What are some of the custom Flaws you or your players have created? I'd really be interested. Sannish addiction: You are ALWAYS addicted to Sannish (a drug from BoVD). You can never pass a fort save to resist taking damage from withdrawl, or to recover from your addiction.
Rhuxley 02-17-07, 07:35 PM	I tend to think of Perks as lesser feats. Not quite as good as an actual feat, but something cool nonetheless. Photographic memory does nothing for you in combat, for example. yes, but if you take a flaw and get a feat, or you get a perk. then the 2 are interchangable, and even though photographic memory isnt good in combat, it is still really good, good enough to be a feat even. Persuasive isnt a combat oriented feat either, and it is definatly a "lesser" feat, but its still a feat. So if flaw + feat = x and flaw + perk = x then perk must = feat
FrostHammer 02-17-07, 08:24 PM	You might get one or two perks, depending on the power of the perk.
runestar 02-17-07, 08:43 PM	I don't like the concept. A player will always choose flaws which will impact him the least, while the bonus feats will be those which benefit him the most. If I do allow them, I might have to restrict what bonus feats he can take, at least such that it fits the theme of the flaw thematically.:)
Limousine_Liberal 02-17-07, 10:08 PM	I tend to think of Perks as lesser feats. Not quite as good as an actual feat, but something cool nonetheless. Photographic memory does nothing for you in combat, for example. Having an eidetic memory is essentially like having a high bonus to one's Autohypnosis roll for memory checks (and only for memory checks). How much of a bonus does it give them that it's not quite a feat?
Norad3 02-17-07, 11:05 PM	My DM broke the flaws into two catagories of Major and Minor flaws. We could take up to two flaws but our first one had to be from the Major flaw catarogy. That seemed to balance it a bit cause we could still take flaws like shaky but we had to take a flaw that would affect us greatly first.
Rhuxley 02-19-07, 01:46 PM	I don't like the concept. A player will always choose flaws which will impact him the least, while the bonus feats will be those which benefit him the most. If I do allow them, I might have to restrict what bonus feats he can take, at least such that it fits the theme of the flaw thematically.:) Nothing benefits or hurts a character more or less. to use the above example of a melee fighter using shaky. well the melee fighter just gets suckier at ranged combat. So that when he is forced to use ranged combat, it makes the chance of actualyl hitting another 10% less. This is like saying that a fighter cannot put their highest stat into str, and use cha as a dump stat, cuz their not gunna use cha as much. thats just stupid, the whole idea of a flaw is its a trade off, and as in any trade, i would only make that trade if i thought i was getting the better end of the deal.
savant_warlord13 02-19-07, 01:48 PM	I let one of my players have a trait without a flaw just because he makes so many bad decisions. I say his character's flaw is a total lack of common sense.
Einvaldurinn_mikli 02-19-07, 01:57 PM	I don't like the concept. A player will always choose flaws which will impact him the least, while the bonus feats will be those which benefit him the most. That is already factored in. Notice how the Flaws give you larger drawbacks then Feats give you advantages?
SebastianHero 02-19-07, 02:14 PM	I allow flaws. Power gamers seem to be more aware of the fact that flaws exist as an option but many of the flaws are still nasty. I compiled a list from all the Dragon Magazine issues that contain new flaws, giving a drastically wider array of options. As DM I prefer to see beforehand what flaws a PC will take. I allowed a player to make up a flaw once. It was a so-so experience because the mechanic to implement the flaw ended up being too complex. I agree that while it might seem that flaws such as Shaky are a luck-warm choice, there are critical moments when the flaw because an albatross. Every PC, or recurrent NPC I've given a flaw too, has suffered (failed a save, missed the winning blow, etc) because of a flaw. As for traits, those don't seem to be known or embraced by players I know as much as flaws, perhaps because a free feat is a very tantalizing reward!
Moribund 02-19-07, 02:31 PM	Players can take advantage of flaws, allowing them to make feat combinations sooner than would otherwise be possible. That's not always a bad thing. It can allow character concepts to work that would otherwise be untenable. Also flaws work better in a long-running and varied campaign. Many will not demonstrate a significant impact in one-shot. For instance, if Fortitude saves are never required then Meager Fortitude just gives a free feat. You might want to limit selection of flaws that are simply non-sensacle or insignificant by virtue of what character they apply to. A warforged fighter with Meager Fortitude makes little sense and has little impact as warforged are immune to many effects that require Fort saves (and the save is probably still high). The same with an elf wizard and Weak Willed. I would advise against allowing players to take more than one flaw (particularly with humans because they already get a bonus feat at 1st level) as feats become more powerful in combination.
Kursk 02-19-07, 03:03 PM	I've never allowed them in my games...nor has any DM in any game I have ever played in. Before readng these forums, I thought no one ever allowed them and they were just the stuff of hyper-optimizing powergamers' wet dreams. Ditto. Too much abuse by munchkins
Rhuxley 02-19-07, 03:29 PM	The same with an elf wizard and Weak Willed. I have to disagree with this one, an elf could still be weak willed, it would just negate that +2 to enchantments they get, and give a -2 on all other will saves. Still seems pretty ****** to me.
Phoenixpyre 02-19-07, 04:33 PM	Could you post a link to your custom flaws, or is there a list of the dragon magazine flaws?
navar100 02-19-07, 04:38 PM	I don't like the concept. A player will always choose flaws which will impact him the least, while the bonus feats will be those which benefit him the most. Exactly. Unearthed Arcana mentions this specifically. This is why the penalties in Flaws are overdone in comparison to bonuses a Feat would give. If a Feat gives +2, a Flaw will give -4.
Orchomenos 02-19-07, 04:39 PM	I play a PbP game where it takes ages to level-up. So I don't mind allowing flaws in the game, since it allows the players to have a whole concept for their PC at lower level.
Sleepwalker13666 02-19-07, 04:56 PM	Before Unearthed Arcana came out I bought a book from AEG called swashbuckling adventures, it had flaws, but it limited what feats you could choose from taking them, even so the flaws where fairly weak and rarely hurt the character. I was far more impressed with Unearthed Arcana's simply because the penalty applied was large, meaning even if the situation rarely came up it was still significant enough to affect the character. Now if the character had a racial ability that negated the flaw I would'nt let him take it, But overall since players don't recieve many feats I think flaws allow them to get the characters they want sooner. Traits I like and have nothing against, I've made a few addtional ones for my game, this is one that is'nt campaign specific: Jumpy: +1 reflex -1 Will
Moribund 02-19-07, 05:19 PM	My custom flaws Blind By birth or accident, you are unable to see. Prerequisites: Cannot have blindsight or blindsense as a racial ability. Effect: You cannot see. You may not make Spot checks, and all creatures have total concealment to you (50% miss chance, +2 to attacks). You are denied you Dexterity bonus to AC, move at half-speed, and take a –4 penalty on Search checks as well as Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks involving movement. However you are immune to gaze attacks, illusion [pattern] spells, and other spells that rely on visual effects. Special: Blind is more severe than other flaws, you receive three bonus feats when you take this flaw at character creation. If you ever regain your sight, you lose three feats that are not class bonus feats or serving as prerequisites. Brittle Bones Your bones are weak and easily shattered. Prerequisites: No racial resistance or immunity to critical hits. Effect: Opponents get a +8 bonus on rolls to confirm critical hits against you. Butterfingers You have a hard time holding on to things. Prerequisites: Ability to wield manufactured weapons. Effect: Whenever you roll a natural 1 on an attack roll or saving throw, you drop whatever you are holding in your hands. Also you take a –4 penalty on rolls to resist disarm attempts. Clumsy Your reflexes leave a lot to be desired even when you are able to get out of the way. Prerequisites: Bipedal. Effect: Whenever you succeed on a Reflex saving throw, you must make a second save at the same DC or fall prone. Crazed When provoked, you lose control. Effect: When damaged by a creature in melee combat, you must pursue and/or attack that creature until it loses consciousness or you can no longer sense it. If you have been damaged by multiple creatures, you may choose which one to attack first. You may not voluntarily flee or end combat until every creature that damaged you either unconscious, dead, or can no longer be detected. Deaf You cannot hear. Effect: You are deaf. You may not make Listen checks. In addition you cannot speak clearly. People have a 20% chance to misunderstand anything you say and you have a 20% chance to miscast spells with verbal components. You may read lips to understand what someone says, but this is at least a standard action for you (see the Spot skill description in the Player’s Handbook). However you are immune to language-dependent spells, unless actively trying to read lips. Special: Deaf is more severe than other flaws. It provides two bonus feats when taken at character creation. If you ever regain your hearing, you lose two feats that are not class bonus feats or serving as prerequisites. Deep Sleeper You take a while to adjust when returning to the waking world. Prerequisites: Cannot have resistance or immunity to sleep as a racial ability. Effect: Whenever you wake up from being asleep or unconscious, you are staggered for 10 minutes. Easily Winded You suffer from shortness of breath even after brief periods of exertion. Effect: Starting the third round you engage in strenuous activity such as attacking, casting spells, or moving at a hustle you are staggered until you take one full round to do nothing but catch your breath. Also you cannot run. Fearful You are disproportionately frightened of things. Prerequisites: Cannot have a racial bonus to saving throws against fear. Effect: Whenever you are subject to a fear effect, you are treated as if you were one category worse. For instance if you fail your saving throw for a cause fear spell, you become panicked rather than frightened. Also, when subject to an effect that would normally cause you to be panicked, you become crazed, a condition described in Heros of Battle (p. 73). Special: If you ever become immune to fear or any fear condition (shaken, frightened, panicked, or crazed) you lose this flaw and one feat that is not a class bonus feat or is serving as a prerequisite. Fragmented Soul Part of your very soul is missing, making you weaker than you would otherwise be. Effect: You gain a negative level that cannot be removed by any means. This negative level does not reduce your maximum hit points to less than 1, does not kill you by itself, and never results in level loss, but otherwise functions like a normal negative level. Special: Fragmented Soul is more severe than other flaws and grants two bonus feats when taken at character creation. Glass Jaw You are exceptionally easy to knock out. Prerequisites: subject to nonlethal damage. Effect: You take twice as much (+100%) damage when you are dealt nonlethal damage from any source. Hemophiliac You are a bleeder. Effect: Whenever you are damaged by a slashing or piercing weapon you start bleeding. At the end of each of your turns you take 1 point of damage from bleeding for every 10 points of damage the piercing or slashing attack dealt (minimum 1). The bleeding stops when you either receive a spell or effect that cures at least 1 hit point or a DC 15 Heal check. Multiple wounds do not stack, only the one that dealt the most damage is used to figure the rate at which you take damage. Muddled You act erratically shortly after your will is tested, and get turned around easily. Prerequisites: Cannot have a racial bonus to saving throws against enchantment effects. Effect: Whenever you fail saving throw against an enchantment effect, you are confused for one round. If the spell or effect that triggered the Will save was not instantaneous, it is suppressed for the round you are confused.  Also when you roll to see what action you take whenever you are confused, roll twice and take the higher result. Muggle You eschew even beneficial magic. Effect: You cannot voluntarily give up a saving throw to a magical effect (even if it is listed as “harmless”) or lower your spell resistance (if you have any). Spells you cast affect you normally. Mute You cannot speak. Effect: You are incapable of forming words or making meaningful sounds. You may not cast spells with a verbal component or activate items by command word. You are still able to understand any languages you know. This flaw does not prevent you from making any vocal noise whatsoever, just speech or sounds louder than normal talking. Special: If you take the Nonverbal Spell feat from the Planar Handbook, you may cast spells normally. Obvious You can’t help but make your intent and presence known. Effect: You take a –4 penalty to Bluff, Disguise, Hide, and Move Silently checks. Phobia You are afraid of a creatures of a particular type or some other condition. Effect: You have a moderate phobia of your choice, as described in Heroes of Horror (p. 61). Special: If you become immune to the frightened condition, you lose this flaw and one feat that is not a class bonus feat or is serving as a prerequisite. Runt You are unusually small for your race and susceptible to bullying. Effect: Whenever subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), you are treated as one size category smaller than you are. In addition, you are treated as a creature one size smaller for the purpose of determining what weapons you may wield without penalty. Sensitive Eyes You have an aversion to bright light Prerequisites: low-light vision or darkvision as a racial ability. Effect: The first round in which you are in an area of bright light, such as sunlight or the radius of a daylight spell, you are blinded. You are dazzled every round after the first that you remain within bright light. Special: You cannot take this flaw if you already have either the Light-Sensitive or Light Blindness special qualities. Sickly You have an averse reaction when subjected to tests of fortitude. Prerequisites: Cannot have a racial bonus to saving throws against poison. Effect: Whenever you fail a Fortitude saving throw, you become sickened for 1d4 rounds. If you would already be sickened, you become nauseated for 1d4 rounds. If you would already be nauseated, you are stunned for 1 round. Special: If you become immune to the sickened or nauseated conditions, you lose this flaw and one feat that is not a bonus feat or is serving as a prerequisite. Slow Learner You learn things at a diminished rate. Effect: Subtract 2 from the number of skill points you gain at each level. This flaw can reduce the number of skill points you gain to 0 (but not below). Spooky Animals have an instinctive aversion to you. Effect: You take a –4 penalty to Handle Animal and Ride checks. In addition, creatures of the animal type have an initial attitude to you one category worse than normal (usually unfriendly for domesticated animals and hostile for wild animals). Ugly You are so hideous that people recoil for the very sight of you. Effect: You take a –4 penalty to Diplomacy and Gather Information checks. In addition, creatures with the same type as you have an initial attitude to you one category worse than usual as long as that is not worse than unfriendly. I've had players play with some of these, and they worked alright. Crazed did cause one party member to kill another, Mute can be a hassle to role-play, and it can be hard to remember to have wild animals attack someone with Spooky at random.
Horatio 02-20-07, 03:40 AM	I allow flaws in my game but characters get bonus feats only when they are actually flawed by the chosen flaws. Example: a wizard taking a -4 to spot and listen checks flaw would not get a bonus feat while a wizard taking -1 hp/level will get a bonus feat.
UnknownMourner 02-20-07, 04:48 AM	Yes, but you have to modify and homebrew them.
KurenaiYami 02-20-07, 04:57 AM	Allowed in mine and the two games I play in.
Archangel62 02-20-07, 09:23 AM	I allow them, I also have a few custom flaws. Reedy: -6 to oppose bullrush and overrun checks. Obese: -6 to escape artist checks Weapon snob: You cannot wield any weapon that is not a racial weapon for you or does not ahve your races name in it.
CantripN 02-20-07, 09:29 AM	Weapon snob: You cannot wield any weapon that is not a racial weapon for you or does not have your races name in it. I give this for free to all elves. They don't get a free feat by being snobs, however. Perhaps Goad is appropriate...
Shadowfax7 02-20-07, 09:49 AM	I allow them but only if you pick a flaw that will actually affect your character at some point. For example, no more Shaky for every single melee character ever. I don't like the concept. A player will always choose flaws which will impact him the least, while the bonus feats will be those which benefit him the most. If I do allow them, I might have to restrict what bonus feats he can take, at least such that it fits the theme of the flaw thematically.:) What I have done to alleviate these problems is to have Flaws rolled randomly by the player, thus you could get a Flaw that really affects them badly or one that affects them only a little, such as Shaky for a totally melee Fighter. IMO traits are fine as is.
Mad_Olin 02-20-07, 11:11 AM	I once played in a game with an elf necromancer who had taken the Frail flaw. It was interesting - we all knew the character would fall into a million little pieces if she was ever hit with anything, so we ended up soaking up most of the damage on her behalf. It changed our tactics, as well as how my friend played his character to compensate. That's kind of how I would like PCs to use flaws in my own games. It's a judgment call, but if I feel like the PC is taking the flaw primarily in order to get the feat, I discourage him; if I feel as though a PC is taking the flaw in order to reinforce something that would've come out in RP situations, and he doesn't look at a flaw as just another way to get a feat, then I'm OK with it. My only real problem with flaws is that as the most ephemeral of optional rules, they're insufficiently integrated into the rest of the game, and there just isn't a big enough list to make it worth considering a lot of the time. Much like what I expect to happen to skill tricks, but that's a post for elsewhere, I suppose...
Rhuxley 02-20-07, 11:15 AM	Example: a wizard taking a -4 to spot and listen checks flaw would not get a bonus feat while a wizard taking -1 hp/level will get a bonus feat. The Flying spaghetti monster knows, spot & listen aren't usefull to wizards. Nope not at all.
JarionSilverblades 03-02-07, 12:01 PM	My players really enjoy the flaws, I had 2 problems, 1) I used Flaws from Dragon, but they never printed flaws for every class so I needed to create or use flaws from other classes. 2) when I introduced 4 new classes I needed some new Flaws. Here are the flaws I use for Favored Soul. Favored Soul Flaws: Blind Devotion: Your devotion to your deity and their divine protection can causes you to move around without careful considerations of foes. Effect: You suffer a -2 penalty on initiative checks and a -4 penalty on Armor Class against attacks of Opportunity Divine Fatigue: Conjuring divine energies is especially draining to you. Prerequisite: Ability to cast divine spells. Effect: Whenever you successfully cast a divine spell you must immediately make a Fortitude save (DC 10+ spell level). If you fail you become fatigued. If you are fatigued as a result of this flaw, it has no further effect until this condition is removed. *Divine Gestures *Weapon Bound * From Dragon Magazine 326 page 91.
Kursk 03-02-07, 12:06 PM	I've never allowed them nor have I met a DM who has.
Rhuxley 03-02-07, 12:09 PM	I've never allowed them nor have I met a DM who has. Could we have some back up on why?
Kursk 03-02-07, 01:10 PM	Could we have some back up on why? For me, every player I've encountered that wanted it was only trying to seek advantage while minimizing the down side.
Rhuxley 03-02-07, 03:03 PM	For me, every player I've encountered that wanted it was only trying to seek advantage while minimizing the down side. Example? Flays kinda hurt everyone, pretty badly as fas as i can see.
Shadowfax7 03-02-07, 04:21 PM	Example? Flays kinda hurt everyone, pretty badly as fas as i can see.How bad is a totally melee Fighter hurt by the Flaw which gives a -2 to ranged attack rolls ??
Rhuxley 03-02-07, 05:25 PM	Well, he can't use ranged as well, and his player is most likely going to creat his character likewise. He wont buy flasks of oil and alchemist fire to throw at low levels, and he does not have the option of staying far from monsters he needs to stay far from. He also is complete crap against flying enemies, and anyone across gorges, or on the other sides of motes. He cant hook grappling hooks, etc. Thats how he hurts himself He made his character limited in being a total melee fighter. As such someone who only trained at melee is more than likely going to be bad at rangid combat, and ill equiped for when it is needed. So when the dragon swwops down and covers him in fire breath, and all his compadres are shooting bows & spells, he is either standing their dumb, or has no chance to hit if he did shoot(cuz he probably doesnt have a magic ranged weapon, or a good dex score either), or he is running away like a coward. With flaws you have 2 options: 1. Lessen your all around abilities just a wee bit(by taking shaky and fighting inranged anyway, and putting money into a magic bow, and having a decent dex score) 2. Destroy one aspect of your character(with no magic ranged weapon[some people dont even buy a regular bow, lol], and making dex a dump stat.)
hiryuu 03-02-07, 07:40 PM	Could you post a link to your custom flaws, or is there a list of the dragon magazine flaws? Here are mine for my d20 Modern game (http://www.nazro.net/customflaws.htm). Some are repeats of what's in UA, others are new, and some won't make any sense in the context they are in. For example, there's a flaw in there that,a mong other things, makes it so that you can't benefit from magical items, and in a D&D context, this makes no sense, but in the world, magic items are as much a good thing as they are a bad thing.
jameswilliamogle 03-02-07, 09:29 PM	I've allowed them when I DM, but only if they have significant impact on the character. This is more to do w/ balance than realism. I prefer that players not play with them, though: getting so many feats at 1st makes leveling up that much more lack-luster. About 3 of the 5 full campaigns I've been in have allowed them. Only 1 of those allowed traits, too.
JarionSilverblades 03-10-07, 09:45 AM	These are the Flaws I let my players choose from if they are playing a Monk. Monk Flaws: Devotion to Arms: You take great pride in knowing how to use weapons specifically designed for monks. You consider Unarmed strikes beneath you, and have allowed your training to atrophy. Prerequisite: Proficiency with all Monk weapons. Effect: You suffer a -4 penalty on all rolls made with Unarmed Strikes, and all weapon not on the Monk’s weapon list. Unarmed Devotion: You prefer to face your opponents in hand to hand combat, and consider it to be dishonorable to use weapons. Effect: You suffer a -4 penalty to hit with anything other then Unarmed Strikes. *Honorable Challenge *Honor of the Duel * From Dragon Magazine 324 page 96.
Dheran 03-10-07, 06:32 PM	I like the idea of traits and flaws. It's entirely true that players will choose flaws that they think will minimally impact their characters, but guess what? I'm a crafty DM and I use their choices against them. If someone makes a Shaky character, then the opponents will tend to stay back and use missile combat. If they pick traits or flaws that reduce their character's hit points, then that PC becomes a prime target. Isn't this cheating on my part? No, because at some point their enemies will be sizing up the competition. They can use skills like Gather Information and spells like Know Opponent and Know Vulnerabilities (both only 2nd level spells for Bards) to determine these PC weaknesses. It's only stupid opponents that don't alter their tactics to increase their chances of winning, and beyond the early levels there aren't any (surviving) stupid opponents. WotC has created hundreds of feats to choose from, and many feat chains that require significant investment to make a character viable. But, except for classes that grant bonus feats, most characters of a given class will end up pretty much the same because they don't have that many feat options to distinguish them from one another. Flaws by themselves add character variety, and the bonus feats they allow make for more fully developed Pcs. Traits by themselves provide for more character variety, albeit in a more limited fashion than flaws and their accompanying bonus feats. It seems these days that most players choose variety for their characters by selecting prestige class levels. This is like going back to school and taking a different career path, which people in real life tend to do rather infrequently. Flaws and bonus feats are more like spending a lot of spare time on (possibly work-related) hobbies without switching careers. Both sorts of options are desirable and help to make interesting characters. DMs who don't allow traits and flaws generally suffer from a lack of imagination, which is a real drawback when you're responsible for running a whole fantasy world. Still, it's better to acknowledge that you've got this sort of weakness than to pretend otherwise. "A man's got to know his limitations."