Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zebek 09-08-07, 06:46 PM	The DMG and PHB do offer a method to calculate how long it takes to build a trap but the time taken just seems too long. For example, a 700gp (7,000sp), CR1 poison dart drap for which the Craft DC is 20. My "10 ranks" expert will take 10 for a total of 20 for success. So in a week, the trapmaker will complete 20x20=400sp of work. At that rate, the trap will take (7000/400)=18 weeks. At the opposite end of the scale, a CR10 Crushing Room costs 29,000gp and would take a successful trapmaker (290,000/30x30) = 6 years. Have I misunderstood the maths? Cheers John
Johnathan_Vagabond 09-09-07, 04:36 PM	The creation measurements for crafting do not apply well to traps. My best guess has been to knock it down by two time periods, using this scale. Year Month Week Day Hour 10 Minutes Minute Second Its not perfect. Crafting a poison dart trap in 18 hours is more logical though, than crafting a poison dart trap in 18 weeks (unless no one's ever done it before). Generally I also give a +# bonus to a player for the number of times he's done it. It shouldn't take you as long to make a poison arrow trap once you've made it a couple times before.
bobothechimp 09-09-07, 04:52 PM	I've always hated the time taken for trapmaking. I mean, it shouldn't even take that long if you have to build the trap from scratch, gathering all the materials, and building each and every thing. Heck, if you've got a crossbow, some fishing line, and some poison, crafting that poison dart trap should be measured in minutes.
Zebek 09-09-07, 06:56 PM	I find it weird. The rules seem to imply WotC put some thought into the trap making mechanics and there's no errata for it so they must have run through the maths a few times... or not :rolleyes: Luckily its not critical for me - just campaign flavour. Cheers John
Kyuketsukiouji 09-09-07, 07:13 PM	The problem is that your calculations are based off an erroneous premise. Your 'expert' trapmaker isn't an expert with 10 points, he's barely a beginner. 4 points at level 1 + 3 skill focus + 3 from 16 int... Level 1 trapmaker? Of course it'll take him forever. Now, if he was level 10, with 14 ranks, +5 from int, +3 from skill focus, +2 masterwork tools and maybe even a magic item or two, and he had 30 points, could easily hit a roll of 40, and had assistants, you'd be able to use the "raise DC to lower crafting time" rules and go much faster.
BruceLeeroy 09-09-07, 08:03 PM	They are still retarded. A combat trapsmith can make a trap as a standard action that is the game-mechanic equivalent of a trap that would take someone with high skills days or even weeks to accomplish. Sure, you can get your checks incredibly high with certain advantages, but honestly, it shouldn't take a highly-specialized, well-equipped team of experts a whole day to accomplish what a PrC can manage in approximately 4 seconds.
BruceLeeroy 09-09-07, 09:31 PM	I worked out the math, I think, in order to craft the equivalent of the Combat Trapsmith's Great Scorcher trap. So, the specs on the Great Scorcher, using a trapsmith with Int of 20. 5d6 fire dmg 5ft range Reflex DC 20 Search DC 30 Disable Device DC 30 Spot DC 30 According to the DMG, this would be approximate a CR6 trap. Average damage of (5x3.5) 17 = +2 CR Save DC 20 -- Search DC 30 +2 CR Disable Device DC 30 +2 CR Spot DC 30 -1 CR (Normally traps don't allow spot at all, so this is just my judgement) Multiple targets (area effect) +1 CR The price is equal to (modified base price x CR) + extra costs. Modified base price of 4k: Base 1000 Search DC 30 +2000 DisDev DC 30 +2000 Spot-able DC 30 -1000 (Again, I just used my judgement with this one) So the total price is (4,000 x 6) 24,000. A 10th level character trying to craft this might have a check that looked like this: 13 - ranks 5 - Int 3 - skill focus 2 - masterwork tools 6 - 3 assistants 5 - magic item 34 total - assuming he rolls a 10, 44. Craft DC 25 for a CR6 trap, so (44 x 25) = 1100. 240,000 (the price of the trap in silver pieces) is what he needs to get to, so (240,000/1100) = 218 weeks. Lets assume he ups the DC by 10 'cause he's trying to make it faster. so, (44 x 35) = 1540. (240,000/1540) = 155. A mere 3 years. Am I doing these calculations completely wrong? Because this seems effing ridiculous. Please, someone tell me I am.
Zebek 09-10-07, 06:36 AM	The problem is that your calculations are based off an erroneous premise. Your 'expert' trapmaker isn't an expert with 10 points, he's barely a beginner. 4 points at level 1 + 3 skill focus + 3 from 16 int... Level 1 trapmaker? Of course it'll take him forever. Now, if he was level 10, with 14 ranks, +5 from int, +3 from skill focus, +2 masterwork tools and maybe even a magic item or two, and he had 30 points, could easily hit a roll of 40, and had assistants, you'd be able to use the "raise DC to lower crafting time" rules and go much faster. Are you seriously telling me that a CR1 poison dart trap is beyond the means of a 10-rank trapmaker and that 18 weeks is to be expected?!?! Let's say, just for argument's sake, that to complete a poison dart trap takes * 1 week *. Using the maths, this would take a check roll of (7000/20=350). How do I get +330 on my d20 roll? Cheers John
Kyuketsukiouji 09-10-07, 07:18 AM	It's not "beyond the means", as you said, you can make one by taking 10. It's perfectly acceptable that a rank amateur would be able to make one. As for eighteen weeks, yes, that doesn't seem particularily wrong to me either. Traps are complex mechanical devices that require precision crafting, not to mention being hidden from sight, and that must be built with enough care not to kill the designer. The one you're using in your example requires getting/making poison from somewhere, too. Heck, your CR 1 trap has a attack bonus of +8, which is way better than the guy who's making it can achieve at his level. Most CR 1 creatures don't have a BAB of +8. If you can mass produce these things, then your average kobold trapsmith could line his lair with dozens over dozens of these traps, which would decimate your average level 1 party in no time flat. So yes, a 1st level trapmaker taking 18 weeks to make something which is a pressure plate-triggered concealed crossbow that fires a poisoned dart with more precision than your average level 3 elven archer can manage works fine by me. Especially since a level 10 kobold trapmaker can make your example trap in 2 weeks.
Kyuketsukiouji 09-10-07, 07:55 AM	I worked out the math, I think, in order to craft the equivalent of the Combat Trapsmith's Great Scorcher trap. <cut math> Am I doing these calculations completely wrong? Because this seems effing ridiculous. Please, someone tell me I am. You are doing a lot of things wrong, yes. Mainly, you're taking what's a very temporary class feature, and translating badly into a trap. First, You're forgetting the fact that a Combat Trapsmith's traps last 1 hour, not forever. Second, if it's a genuine trap, there's no Spot involved with it at all. Third, making it CR 6 compares very unfavorably with other CR 6 traps. 5d6 damage is more in line with a CR 4 lightning bolt trap than a CR 6 firestorm trap. Making it entirely mechanical with the high DCs is nice, but a bit overkill. You could make it magical and drop the DC down at least 2. You'd pay some xp, but you'd make it a lot faster. Still, let's go with 6. Now, with a little bit of work your level 10 trapmaker could bump his DC to 45, which means he'd get 45x45 = 2025 sp worth of work each week. If he has Extraordinary Trapsmith (and really, why wouldn't he?), he can shave off 25% off the cost from the start, and it takes him 89 weeks to make the trap. Yes, that sounds a lot, but it's a pretty good trap you're making there. It's going to be utterly impossible for anyone not level 5 or so to detect (even if they take 20), it can wipe out a small party of adventurers if they're not careful, it doesn't radiate magic or cost xp to make, and it has a nice save DC. And most importantly, your little landmine is going to sit there, patiently waiting for someone to step on it and blow himself and his buddies up forever.
Kamin_Majere 09-10-07, 08:22 AM	89 weeks? You really think thats reasonable? In that amount of time i could build a car by hand... even assuming i have to create all the parts myself. And more than likely i'd be driving the car around long before that poor sap spend almost two years of his life building this single trap. Trap making isnt reasonable in D&D at all. Most normal dungeons would have taken decades and decades just for the trap makers to work their "wonders". Unless you some how were able to find and hire 100's of 10th level people and the fleet of assistants, then the trap making would only take about 3ish years... thats still a bit obsurd. I mean even doing the most basic thing like throwing razor wire into a hall way takes that same guy with a 45 total check about 2 weeks to figure out how to do that... you could learn to build razor wire, thread it together yourself and then chunk it in a hall way and not take 2 weeks.
Zebek 09-10-07, 08:57 AM	Heck, your CR 1 trap has a attack bonus of +8, which is way better than the guy who's making it can achieve at his level. Most CR 1 creatures don't have a BAB of +8. IT was just a cheap example form the list. The actual mechanics of the trap are irrelevant as it is the market value that is used to determine manufacturing time. If you can mass produce these things, then your average kobold trapsmith could line his lair with dozens over dozens of these traps, which would decimate your average level 1 party in no time flat.The reason you and I don't make such dungeons is because of the lack of fun players would have, not because it's impractical. If *I* was a kobold trapsmith, my lair would be a death trap for any creature larger than a mouse. Please call ahead before visiting ;) So yes, a 1st level trapmaker taking 18 weeks to make something which is a pressure plate-triggered concealed crossbow that fires a poisoned dart with more precision than your average level 3 elven archer can manage works fine by me.But I can't dumb down the trap below CR1 unless I extrapolate the "Craft DCs for Mechanical Traps" table into the negative. If I take that avenue: Attack bonus +0 for -2 on the CR I now have a CR-1 (or a CR1/3 or whatever) trap and a DC 15. The cost of manufacturing is now the minimum of 100gp. So my 10-rank trapmaker will take (1000/20x15)=3 weeks for a sub-CR1 trap. There's a funny effect here - reducing the DC extends the manufacturing time. Luckily it is more than compensated for by the drop in cost. Especially since a level 10 kobold trapmaker can make your example trap in 2 weeks.Maths please (is this using the feat in Races of the Dragon?). Also, I shoudn't need to have 10th level kobolds to make CR1 traps - they should be working on the nasty stuff instead, leaving CR1 traps to the lower level trapmakers.
Kyuketsukiouji 09-10-07, 06:52 PM	89 weeks? You really think thats reasonable? In that amount of time i could build a car by hand... even assuming i have to create all the parts myself. And more than likely i'd be driving the car around long before that poor sap spend almost two years of his life building this single trap. Could you? You're telling me that if I give you an anvil, a hammer, some bellows, a threadmaking wedge and some solder, you can take some bars of iron, raw rubber, some wood and leather, can come up with a motor vehicle in less than 2 years? You're thinking in times relative to mass-produced industrial ages here. D&D doesn't work that way outside of eberron. We're talking pre-industrial ages here. It's perfectly normal for something requiring extreme precision mechanisms to take a very long time to make perfectly. To use the example trap that was given (the Great Scorcher), you are, basically, making a landmine out of scratch, with 15-17th century clockmaking tools, in a reality where gunpowder doesn't exist. And it's so well-made, you can hide one in a stone floor, and no amount of studying the area by anyone who's not specifically trained to find traps will spot it. Tell me, do you have -any- idea how to start making one of those? Without the internet, and chemistry manuals, and AutoCAD and all the tons of things we take for granted these days? Not only that, but you're going to be building a trap with 0% failure rate. Traps made -never- fail to go off, which means you're building mechanisms that have a -perfect- success rate, constantly. That's like building a grandfather clock that never requires winding and never looses time, over a period of years. From scratch. Without plans or libraries or research or anything like that. So, yes, long crafting times work fine for me. mean even doing the most basic thing like throwing razor wire into a hall way takes that same guy with a 45 total check about 2 weeks to figure out how to do that... you could learn to build razor wire, thread it together yourself and then chunk it in a hall way and not take 2 weeks. You're not reading your DMG right. It's not "throwing razor wire across a corridor" it's a "razor wire trap". It's mechanical, it has an area trigger, and you can't see it. You can't even notice it'll spring out all around you without a DC 22 search check. That's why it takes 2 weeks. Barbed wire across a hallways isn't a trap, it's an obstacle. This stuff's waiting for you, concealed in the floor and walls, ready to slash up in a 10'x 5' area as soon as a concealed trigger's accidentally depressed. Most definitely not the same.
Kyuketsukiouji 09-10-07, 07:04 PM	IT was just a cheap example form the list. The actual mechanics of the trap are irrelevant as it is the market value that is used to determine manufacturing time. The reason you and I don't make such dungeons is because of the lack of fun players would have, not because it's impractical. If *I* was a kobold trapsmith, my lair would be a death trap for any creature larger than a mouse. Please call ahead before visiting ;) No, you can't justify not having these by your being merciful to the players, that makes no sense. Kobolds aren't idiots. If they could, they would. The reason the kobolds don't have a bazillion traps is because a) They can't afford them and b) They just don't have the time to make that many. But I can't dumb down the trap below CR1 unless I extrapolate the "Craft DCs for Mechanical Traps" table into the negative. If I take that avenue: Attack bonus +0 for -2 on the CR I now have a CR-1 (or a CR1/3 or whatever) trap and a DC 15. The cost of manufacturing is now the minimum of 100gp. So my 10-rank trapmaker will take (1000/20x15)=3 weeks for a sub-CR1 trap. There's a funny effect here - reducing the DC extends the manufacturing time. Luckily it is more than compensated for by the drop in cost. That's because, again, you're somehow expecting your level 1 amateurs to be able to perform great feats of engineering. As soon as your kobolds are able to hit a DC 25 roll, they'll take 1.6 weeks to make one of those traps. And if they're level 3 and take Extraordinary Trapsmith, they'll make the trap in 6 days, giving them a nice day to relax and get happily buzzed on mushroom beer between traps. Maths please (is this using the feat in Races of the Dragon?). Also, I shoudn't need to have 10th level kobolds to make CR1 traps - they should be working on the nasty stuff instead, leaving CR1 traps to the lower level trapmakers. Yes, it's using Extraordinary Trapsmith for the 50% cost reduction. If you're going to make traps and you don't take that feat, you're pretty stupid, since that's the only feat other than Skill Focus (Craft(Trapmaking)) that's of any use to you. And you're right, the level 10 kobolds have better things to do than CR 1 traps. Unless you want that CR 1 trap -right now-. You can leave the wimpy stuff for your apprentices to make if you've got the time. The master'll make the more dangerous stuff. But, if you don't want to rely on shoddy defences, the master'll take a break every now and then and show his apprentices how it's really done and whip up a quick trap every now and again. (as for the math, it's simple enough. Cut the price of the trap in 2, don't forget the +2 racial bonus Kobolds get, and toss in the amount of magic a level 10 character should expect to have, primarly in Int items and a decent skill boost item)
Zebek 09-10-07, 11:22 PM	No, you can't justify not having these by your being merciful to the players, that makes no sense.Yes, I can. Yes, it does. How many people thought (especially with hindsight) that Tomb of Horrors was somewhere they really, really wanted to take their favourite characters? The DMG on p67 recommends being aware of the impact of traps on gameplay. The traps you set are supposed to be appropriate to the level of the party, in the same way the number of kobolds in the lair is going to be challenging but beatable. Kobolds aren't idiots. If they could, they would. The reason the kobolds don't have a bazillion traps is because a) They can't afford them and b) They just don't have the time to make that many.To me, this is the tail wagging the dog. I'll explain what I mean. WotC have a simple and neat system for determining time taken (although it would be nice if it was all on the same page and not spread between 2 books :) ). You need such a system so that people can use the tables to quickly and easily create a trap to their liking. Unfortunately (in my opinion) the system is too simplistic - it generates a GP cost very quickly but the time taken is independent of the trap's actual mechanism. Also, it doesn't allow for even limited mass-production and the costs are arbitrary numbers popping out of the maths you apply. The tables are great for a DM when populating a dungeon with traps but I don't think they work when applied to the "man in the street", as it were. So, yes, kobolds won't have the money and time but that is because the tables in DMG ensure that they don't, not because they couldn't build the traps cheaply or quickly. Take the CR1 Swinging Block Trap, for example. I don't really see kobolds - excellent miners - having as much trouble with this as 500gp would indicate. I've seen the movies - ancient Egyptians could probably make this sort of trap work with some chisels and several buckets of sand. :) Now if the "market price" includes labour then the cost problem disappears. A 500gp trap is going to be very cheap when you deduct the cost of some expensive city guildmember because of the "free" labour in your own kobold tribe's workforce. ...you're somehow expecting your level 1 amateurs to be able to perform great feats of engineering.Not all the time, no. Maybe on a very lucky dice roll. As soon as your kobolds are able to hit a DC 25 roll, they'll take 1.6 weeks to make one of those traps. And if they're level 3 and take Extraordinary Trapsmith, they'll make the trap in 6 days, giving them a nice day to relax and get happily buzzed on mushroom beer between traps. "Extraordinary Trapsmith" requires 9 ranks which means the kobold would need to already be 6th level to qualify and therefore not eligible for this feat until 9th level. In a low-level campaign where CR1 traps abound, this feat will be very rare. In summary, I admit I am a product of my era and don't really know how long these things take to make but I don't think they should take as long as the maths says they should. I think some real-world examples need to be found to give a point of reference.
Kyuketsukiouji 09-10-07, 11:42 PM	Not all the time, no. Maybe on a very lucky dice roll. Don't take ten, then. Rolling a 20 on your dice roll will give you a pretty hefty advantage when it comes to crafting anything. A lucky 20 could get a 1st level trapmaker up to 900 sp worth of work done in a week, if he really pushed the envelope. That's pretty respectable, when you can make lethal traps for 4-500 gp. Also, try to remember the damage potential of even one CR 1 trap. The poison dart we've been using as an example is a pretty bad one, actually. Look at something like Razor Wire traps. 400gp for 2d6 damage to two targets, with a whopping +10 to melee. At first level, that's actually got a chance to take people out, and it costs 130gp to make one. Same thing for the Fusilade of Darts trap. If one Kobold could sit around for a few days and makes these, that's a single 1st level "monster" in a position to take out a whole party of 1st level adventurers, all on his lonesome, without a scratch on him. Of course, a 1st level kobold rogue doesn't have the money for the needed parts (which is good), but again, it's a good indication that these things shouldn't be -that- easy to make. They should take either a decent amount of skill or time to build, and that reflects nicely on the caution you yourself pointed about about overusing traps. As DMs, we don't overuse traps because they can have a disproportionate impact on gameplay (2 CR 1 traps placed properly can wipe the party out a lot faster than 2 CR 1 monsters can), and as "reality creators", that lack of overuse is justified by the time-intensive labour traps represent. Mind you, the day the kobolds get a Staff of Fabricate, all bets are off. Game over, man, game over!
Dog_O_War 09-11-07, 12:25 AM	The craft rules really become a pain when making anything worth 3000gp or more, as the time soon becomes unworkable (example: "heya guys, I just finished making a suit of MW Sectioned armour and now I've aged a year and a half.") I would suggest cutting all craft times in half to start, but I wouldn't get too crazy (like making craft checks take only one day). Maybe even allowing multiple crafters to build one thing, with each one contributing their roll to the overall number each week.
Zebek 09-11-07, 09:16 AM	Don't take ten, then. Rolling a 20 on your dice roll will give you a pretty hefty advantage when it comes to crafting anything. A lucky 20 could get a 1st level trapmaker up to 900 sp worth of work done in a week, if he really pushed the envelope. That's pretty respectable, when you can make lethal traps for 4-500 gp.But I won't get many 20s so the progress from a lucky roll will be cancelled out by the lost time through failed checks. Also, my 10-rank trapmaker would only make 900sp progress on a DC30 trap with a natural 20. On a DC20 trap he would only make 600sp progress. :confused: Also, try to remember the damage potential of even one CR 1 trap. But this isn't relavant - I could make a trap that chucks paint for the same sort of cost and therefore manufacturing time. Look at something like Razor Wire traps. 400gp for 2d6 damage to two targets, with a whopping +10 to melee. At first level, that's actually got a chance to take people out, and it costs 130gp to make one. Same thing for the Fusilade of Darts trap. If one Kobold could sit around for a few days and makes these, that's a single 1st level "monster" in a position to take out a whole party of 1st level adventurers, all on his lonesome, without a scratch on him.And the problem here is what? This just highlights lack of planning on the part of the DM and/or the players. Just because the front door has been booby-trapped to next Sunday doesn't mean that the party has to use it. If you think of movies where somewhere secure has to be broken into, the characters "case the joint" first. If there is a door then the kobold must use is at some time so the party should kill him as he leaves for supplies. Or they look for a rear exit, or they disguise themselves and bluff their way in. Or maybe they could search for the traps in the first place with their assisted rogue? Of course, a 1st level kobold rogue doesn't have the money for the needed parts (which is good), but again, it's a good indication that these things shouldn't be -that- easy to make. They should take either a decent amount of skill or time to build, and that reflects nicely on the caution you yourself pointed about about overusing traps.This is the tail wagging the dog again. The kobolds don't have the money because the maths says they don't (see my previous point about cost of labour). As DMs, we don't overuse traps because they can have a disproportionate impact on gameplay (2 CR 1 traps placed properly can wipe the party out a lot faster than 2 CR 1 monsters can), and as "reality creators", that lack of overuse is justified by the time-intensive labour traps represent.So game balance is used to justify making things expensive and time-consuming to make, rather than a system that reflects that things are expensive and time-consuming to make BECAUSE they would be expensive and time-consuming to make. It's a one-size-fits all system and I don't think it generates "realistic" values. Maybe I need to do some digging to find out how long similar stuff did take to make in the 1400s. {Personal gripe} On a general note I hate the mechanisms in D&D that are there for game balance (like ensuring characters have a certain amount of wealth at a particular level - sheesh). I understand that they can assist people who need help - not everybody has been DMing for ages - but I would rather have data that I can make decisions on for myself.{/Personal gripe}
Kyuketsukiouji 09-11-07, 06:41 PM	But this isn't relavant - I could make a trap that chucks paint for the same sort of cost and therefore manufacturing time. Of course not. A trap that chucked paint wouldn't be CR 1. It'd fall in fractional CRs, like those you extrapolated before. Tossing a paint baloon at someone takes a lot less of a mechanism than trying to ram an arrow through them. And the problem here is what? The problem is that it makes your level 1 kobold rogue a lot more than the CR 1 encounter he should be. One first level character should not have the ability to take out half a dozen other first level characters without far more extenuating circumstances than a few day's crafting. This is the tail wagging the dog again. The kobolds don't have the money because the maths says they don't (see my previous point about cost of labour). And it makes sense that they don't. So game balance is used to justify making things expensive and time-consuming to make, rather than a system that reflects that things are expensive and time-consuming to make BECAUSE they would be expensive and time-consuming to make. It's a one-size-fits all system and I don't think it generates "realistic" values. Maybe I need to do some digging to find out how long similar stuff did take to make in the 1400s. I'd suggest you do so, yes. These things are expensive and time-consuming to make, period. The fact game balance also benefits from it is just a bonus. {Personal gripe} On a general note I hate the mechanisms in D&D that are there for game balance (like ensuring characters have a certain amount of wealth at a particular level - sheesh). I understand that they can assist people who need help - not everybody has been DMing for ages - but I would rather have data that I can make decisions on for myself.{/Personal gripe} Game balance mechanisms are there for two reasons. One, as you pointed out, because not everyone is a good DM. Two, because if they're not there, someone, eventually, will find a way to break stuff to high heaven, and it'll require some kind of on-the-fly ruling, and those rarely tend to make anyone happy.
BruceLeeroy 09-11-07, 07:31 PM	You're telling me that if I give you an anvil, a hammer, some bellows, a threadmaking wedge and some solder, you can take some bars of iron, raw rubber, some wood and leather, can come up with a motor vehicle in less than 2 years? You're thinking in times relative to mass-produced industrial ages here. D&D doesn't work that way outside of eberron. We're talking pre-industrial ages here. It's perfectly normal for something requiring extreme precision mechanisms to take a very long time to make perfectly. To use the example trap that was given (the Great Scorcher), you are, basically, making a landmine out of scratch, with 15-17th century clockmaking tools, in a reality where gunpowder doesn't exist. And it's so well-made, you can hide one in a stone floor, and no amount of studying the area by anyone who's not specifically trained to find traps will spot it. Tell me, do you have -any- idea how to start making one of those? Without the internet, and chemistry manuals, and AutoCAD and all the tons of things we take for granted these days? Aaannnnd, it takes a competent trapmaker (with 3 assistants) who is well-versed in the use of those tools, who also has access to magical tools and spells, a SOLID YEAR to produce something a trapsmith can make as a standard action. Yea, dumb. Your argument rests on the assumption that the person designing the traps is an ignorant, lazy fool from the 21st century who wouldn't know a chisel from a hole in his head. 10 ranks in a skill represents a low-level mastery. You can produce items of much higher quality than the average crafter, in less time. Yes, such a person would have an excellent idea of how to do everything involved in making a trap, as he's done it dozens, if not hundreds, of times before. Add to that a 10th level character's access to magic, whether their own or hired, and you've got power that easily compares to 21st century technology. Stone shape, anyone? Sculpt wood? The times the calculations come up with are nothing short of ludicrous.
Kyuketsukiouji 09-11-07, 08:49 PM	Aaannnnd, it takes a competent trapmaker (with 3 assistants) who is well-versed in the use of those tools, who also has access to magical tools and spells, a SOLID YEAR to produce something a trapsmith can make as a standard action. Yea, dumb. No, dumb is thinking a trap that can't survive 61 minutes and can be -seen- just by looking around is comparable to something that's totally invisible to sight and will last years. Your argument rests on the assumption that the person designing the traps is an ignorant, lazy fool from the 21st century who wouldn't know a chisel from a hole in his head. 10 ranks in a skill represents a low-level mastery. You can produce items of much higher quality than the average crafter, in less time. Yes, such a person would have an excellent idea of how to do everything involved in making a trap, as he's done it dozens, if not hundreds, of times before. Add to that a 10th level character's access to magic, whether their own or hired, and you've got power that easily compares to 21st century technology. Stone shape, anyone? Sculpt wood? The times the calculations come up with are nothing short of ludicrous. "low-level" and "mastery" don't work together. A "master" in D&D has 18-23 ranks in a skill, not 10 (and stat bonuses, and feats, and magical tools, and probably a few other tricks). 0 ranks is "has never touched it". 4 ranks is "rank amateur". 7 is "talented amateur". 10 ranks isn't a "master" it's "starting out". Anything a first level character can hit is not, and should not, be considered "mastery" by any stretch of the imagination. Even the absolute best of child prodigies were not considered "masters" when they started out. They were "good", they were "far better than the common kid", yes, but not "making masters feel inadequate". A level 15 crafter can hit DCs of 35 with no magic items, no remarkable tools, and with a starting Intelligence score of 14. 10 ranks in something is pretty pale compared to that. And bringing magic into the equation is pretty pointless. As soon as you hit Fabricate, you don't need anything else. That's your "industrial magic" right there. Make anything you know how to make, in instants. Who needs Stone Shape or Sculpt wood? But, really, who cares? We're not talking about using magic. We're talking about handcrafting a miniature crossbow that shoots a dart with the accuracy and power of a level 5 Fighter, brewing poisons just as well as someone who has that craft skill, clockwork mechanisms that detect the activation of a pressure plate and correctly transmit the order to fire without spoiling the trap's aim, stonework cunning enough to hide the whole shebang from anyone who's not crawling on hands and knees inspecting every inch of the floor and walls, and the whole thing made so cleverly it will have no problem hitting a 3-foot tall halfling or a 6-foot tall human. But hey, don't mind me. You obviously want to be able to churn these out like candy at level 1, so go right ahead. Never mind the fact it makes no sense. Never mind the fact that doing that is practically inviting massive abuse your new houserule. Never mind the fact that letting level 1 characters churn out CR 1 traps in a matter of days will translate into level 20 characters churning out CR 10 traps in a matter of...what, hours? Minutes? And let's not even talk about the massive inconsistency that will arise from the fact that trapmaking races will have the ability to make tons and tons of cheap, easy and quick to make traps, but, somehow, just won't, because you'll realise as a DM that as cute as 20 Implosion traps all set to go off together sounds, guaranteed total party wipes unless your players check every single tiny square inch of every dungeon they go to, ever, with Take 20, each time, is going to be the utterly most boringest thing you've ever done. But you don't really care about that. I've -never- seen a DM complain that Craft skills took too much time to use. It's always players in search of a quick break.
BruceLeeroy 09-11-07, 09:23 PM	Or players in search of a use for the Craft(trapmaking) skill that doesn't apply to living in a location for 15 years in order to set up a dozen traps.
TheCheshireCat 09-12-07, 09:28 AM	I have to agree with BruceLeroy, although Kyuketsukiouji makes some very compelling points. The point I have to disagree with is your last sentence, it seems very agitated and meant to provoke instead of converse. Of course DM's won't complain that traps take too long to make. How often to the BBEG's beasties react to player incursions by making specialized traps? Or even with magical warning, making tailor made traps for the party? They don't. At least not in any module or game I've played. I'm certain there have been DM's who have figured out some way of doing this, but it's been my experience that most traps party's encounter have been there for a long, long time. Players are more interested in it because, well, how is my Trapmaking rogue supposed to convince the party that he's busy making a trap for the entrance to their camp and can't go adventuring with them, unless he wants to spend even more time crafting that trap. However, I will probably need some clarification on this. When you're crafting a trap, does that assume an 8 hour workday, or every waking moment you have you're working on your trap? You brought up the point that level 20 people could churn out traps like crazy. And? They're level 20! My goodness, if that's what they choose to do with their time, why not!? Level 20 mages can do far, far worse, warping the very fabric of reality! Level 20 Rogues can avoid walls of arrows and fire while swinging from a chandelier and avoiding the provocation of attacts while passing trained enemies. Barbarians cleave hillsides in their best impersonation of Cadabolg. Cleric's and Druids... well... I think my point is made, that at level 20, you're pretty much as far as you can get (in most games, not going epic). So, if I choose to make a level 20 trapmaker, you'd best believe that he should crank out those CR 10 traps. He might not rend time into oblivion with his magics, or slay dragons with his divine blades, but you'd best believe that his traps should be able to.
BW0222 09-12-07, 10:46 PM	Zebek, If you only have +10 on craft (trapmaking) you are an amature. A 5th-level expert, with 8 ranks, +3 skill focus, +3 intelligence, and +2 masterwork tools is +16. You can hire anyone of this skill in a reasonable population center for a gold a day. If someone actually wanted a 700gp trap (DC 20 trap) to make... hire him and a pair of his 2nd-level (+9) assistants. Taking a 10 he gets a 26. With assists he gets a 30. Raising the DC voluntarily to 30 he does 30x30=900sp per week. They finish the job in 8 weeks. Far less than half the time you did. If you are really in a rush, hire a 15th-level expert and five assistants. At +30 and +10 for his assistants, taking a 10, he gets a 50. Raising the DC to 50, he does 50x50=2500sp per week. They finish the job in 3 weeks. If you want it tomorrow, then either buy the trap or use magic to create it.
bobothechimp 09-12-07, 11:25 PM	That's still 3 weeks for something that should take, at most, a few hours. You can take a crossbow bolt, poison it, load it in a crossbow, fix it in the crotch of a tree, pointed down a path. Then tie some line to the crossbow trigger, feed it through a pulley or two, and stretch the line across the path. Put some leaves over the crossbow and the tripwire. There is no way that takes 3 weeks, unless you spend the first 2 weeks, 6 days, and 6 hours in a coma.
BW0222 09-13-07, 02:00 AM	bobothechimp That's still 3 weeks for something that should take, at most, a few hours. You can take a crossbow bolt, poison it, load it in a crossbow, fix it in the crotch of a tree, pointed down a path. Then tie some line to the crossbow trigger, feed it through a pulley or two, and stretch the line across the path. Put some leaves over the crossbow and the tripwire. Wrong. What you are describing is a 5 gp trap, not a 700gp one. What you are describing can't be placed in a any location (i.e. no trees), can't be hidden in a dungeon, ceases to function after a few hours (i.e. crossbow losses it tention especially with a good rain), poison doesn't work (evaporates, washes away in the rain, etc.), the rope and crossbow cord rot (or are eaten by squirrels), won't remain hidden (the leaves rot or blow away), etc., etc. There is no way that takes 3 weeks, unless you spend the first 2 weeks, 6 days, and 6 hours in a coma. It doesn't take 3 weeks, because a crossbow tied to a tree isn't worth 700gp. If you want to price it as a CR 1 trap which only last 1 hour, only works in the forest, etc. I'm sure you can drop the price down to a few gold. It you want to design a trap which delivers a posion dart, lasts for say ten years, and can be hidden anywhere, poison remains potent for years, etc. ... you aren't sticking a crossbow in a tree and tying some wire to the trigger.
yrogerg 09-13-07, 08:02 AM	"low-level" and "mastery" don't work together. A "master" in D&D has 18-23 ranks in a skill, not 10 (and stat bonuses, and feats, and magical tools, and probably a few other tricks). 0 ranks is "has never touched it". 4 ranks is "rank amateur". 7 is "talented amateur". 10 ranks isn't a "master" it's "starting out". Anything a first level character can hit is not, and should not, be considered "mastery" by any stretch of the imagination. Even the absolute best of child prodigies were not considered "masters" when they started out. They were "good", they were "far better than the common kid", yes, but not "making masters feel inadequate". A level 15 crafter can hit DCs of 35 with no magic items, no remarkable tools, and with a starting Intelligence score of 14. 10 ranks in something is pretty pale compared to that. You do realize that normal Prestige Classes require 8 ranks in selected skills, typically, right? And that Prestige Classes, as the name implies, are often intended to connote, umm, prestige in a particular field? You seem to be operating from the assumption that nobody is a master of their craft until they reach level 15, at least. Most people would point out that this isn't actually true, and that level 11 is the point at which most characters start breaking the game and turning into cartoony superheroes. Heck, the PHB identifies level 11 at the point at which someone is "Legendary". It's a little absurd in light of that to assume that anyone levels 7-9 is still an *amateur*. But you don't really care about that. I've -never- seen a DM complain that Craft skills took too much time to use. It's always players in search of a quick break. Really? Because the near-uselessness of skills past the first couple of levels due to magic and the fact that many of them work on a geological timescale was definitely on my old DM's litany of complaints about D&D mechanics.
yrogerg 09-13-07, 08:21 AM	But, really, who cares? We're not talking about using magic. We're talking about handcrafting a miniature crossbow that shoots a dart with the accuracy and power of a level 5 Fighter, brewing poisons just as well as someone who has that craft skill, Actually, no. You include the poison yourself, and pay the corresponding price as if you've bought it normally. That's not absorbed by this Craft check But hey, don't mind me. You obviously want to be able to churn these out like candy at level 1, so go right ahead. Never mind the fact it makes no sense. Never mind the fact that doing that is practically inviting massive abuse your new houserule. Never mind the fact that letting level 1 characters churn out CR 1 traps in a matter of days will translate into level 20 characters churning out CR 10 traps in a matter of...what, hours? Minutes? Actually, it would take a level 20 character around a month to make a CR 10 trap (it takes about 20 days if you decide to be generous and give them an overall +50 modifier, unless my maths are off). *And* he'd still need to provide the spells, poisons, and whatever else at cost. That's a useful skill, there. And chances are, a level 1 character can't reach the requisite DC 20 to craft a CR 1 trap. The OP's example used a character who's at least at level 5. You can't do this on a reasonable scale until you're well above the appropriate ECL for the trap's CR, which in turn means you can't actually use traps to actually *do* anything. So yes, there's a problem here. And let's not even talk about the massive inconsistency that will arise from the fact that trapmaking races will have the ability to make tons and tons of cheap, easy and quick to make traps, but, somehow, just won't, because you'll realise as a DM that as cute as 20 Implosion traps all set to go off together sounds, guaranteed total party wipes unless your players check every single tiny square inch of every dungeon they go to, ever, with Take 20, each time, is going to be the utterly most boringest thing you've ever done. Oddly, though, the trapmaking races are certainly *flavored* as though that +2 to Craft: trapmaking gives them this enormous advantage that means their lairs are littered with low-to-mid-level traps, at the very least. Oh, and then there's all those adventures where the bad guys set up traps after they're aware that the adventurers are intruding. Hard to do that if it takes a month to set up a not-quite-appropriate-CR trap. But you don't really care about that. I've -never- seen a DM complain that Craft skills took too much time to use. It's always players in search of a quick break.[/QUOTE]
BruceLeeroy 09-13-07, 05:41 PM	It seems obvious to me that, despite some naysayers, craft(trapmaking) doesn't work with the rules as written for regular crafting. However, in CAdv, there is a variation on the Craft rules specifically for poisons, which changes your check into progress measured in gold, not silver, pieces. This effectively reduces the crafting time of the more expensive Craft checks into something manageable in a campaign. Doses can be made in a week, sometimes multiple doses a week, rather than months or years. Using this variation on my cr6 trap mentioned above means that a competent trapmaker would be able to churn one out in 15 weeks instead of 155... A little less than 5 months, as opposed to 3 years. That's a 24kgp trap, and not a very good one, either. I'm sure you could design one with a better bang for the buck. Also, think about adding something to the chart of base price modifiers: Durability. If you don't invest the time and money to make sure your trap will last several thousand years, it should seriously discount the price. This can be accounted for simply in the quality of materials you use. It could look like this: 2 Weeks - 1 Month -2000gp 1 Month - 6 Months -1000gp 6-Months - 1 Year -500gp 1 Year - Forever -- Using the same CR 6 trap, only this one made to last for 2 weeks - 1 month, would cost 12k, and require (with the same checks) only 8 weeks. Two months to build a landmine? I'm still a little disappointed, but it is MUCH more reasonable in game terms. Until you look in the MIC at the blast disk. For 900gp, you get an item that can explode due to proximity, or on a timer, deals 5d6 in 10 feet, Save DC 14, search/disdev dc 28. And anyone can use it. Also better than the Craft (trapmaking) skill: -Exploding spike -Sleeping spike -Stunning spike
PhaedrusXY 09-13-07, 05:45 PM	The D&D crafting skills are total nonsense, at least as far as the time involved. The prices for traps and poisons are also ridiculous. It is obvious the designers either didn't want PCs using these things, or just totally neglected to even think about whether the system they had made would actually work in play. I'd advise just ignoring them, and coming up with your own system, if you actually want the PCs to do crafting. I'm sure some 3rd party book, or homebrew material on the web somewhere, does a much better job of dealing with it than the core rules. I've seen some revisions posted on here, but haven't saved any links.
Kyuketsukiouji 09-13-07, 06:34 PM	The D&D crafting skills are total nonsense, at least as far as the time involved. The prices for traps and poisons are also ridiculous. It is obvious the designers either didn't want PCs using these things, or just totally neglected to even think about whether the system they had made would actually work in play. Using, yes. Making, no. After all D&D is about going out and adventuring, not staying home and getting rich. If your character wants to stay home and make stuff for profit, you're not playing the right game.
PhaedrusXY 09-13-07, 07:11 PM	I mostly meant using those skills. Without some way to rapidly make items (Fabricate, Minor Creation, etc), the time involved is totally ridiculous. You just can't use those skills as an adventurer in most games. And besides that, Poisons and Traps are so expensive that noone in their right mind would use them at all, if they actually had to pay for them. You're much better off buying a wand and taking ranks in Use Magic Device or something. If they're not meant for PCs to use, then why even include them in the rules?
yrogerg 09-13-07, 08:31 PM	Using, yes. Making, no. How, exactly, does one *use* a trap without having to deal with the whole crafting time thing, though? By your own estimation, traps don't really move around: weren't you the one talking about how much sense it made that traps took months to years to construct precisely enough to be well-hidden and to properly attack the person who triggered it? Those aren't exactly portable features.
yrogerg 09-13-07, 08:33 PM	If they're not meant for PCs to use, then why even include them in the rules? And particularly, why include rules on cost, craft DC and building time? If they're only encounter fodder, then the only important statistic for a DM who wants to include them is their CR.
PhaedrusXY 09-13-07, 10:20 PM	And particularly, why include rules on cost, craft DC and building time? If they're only encounter fodder, then the only important statistic for a DM who wants to include them is their CR.My point exactly.