Trip + (Improved) Cleave [Archive] - Wizards Community

Trip + (Improved) Cleave [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Millenia
05-12-07, 01:49 AM I know that Cleave states that one must do enough damage to drop/kill someone (reduce below 0 HP) in order to gain the extra attack, but I was curious as to how abilities such as the Astral Construct's Trip menu ability (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/astralConstruct.htm), which allows it to trip someone on a successful attack. While it does not reduce the opponent to 0 HP all the time, it does technically deal enough damage, -and- it makes the opponent fall, so.... would the attack + Trip (if successful) activate Cleave, in your opinion?
Rerecros
05-12-07, 02:00 AM cleave works by a weapon passing through an opponent on a finishing blow, and immediately striking an adjacent opponent. Tiping usually involves grabing/hooking an oponent's leg and knocking him prone, an action to complicated to do in immediate succession.
TheRealOrion
05-12-07, 02:31 AM That's how Cleave is described, but the rule is "If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop," then you get a Cleave attempt. That's it. You have to do enough actual damage, lethal or nonlethal, to make someone "drop," which implies unconsciousness to me. Tripping is something else entirely. I agree with your basic interpretation, but I think your reason for it doesn't quite hold water.
Millenia
05-12-07, 02:37 AM I see... Thank you both. I shall keep it in mind.

Well, Rerecros, I also kinda see it as an astral construct punching someone in the face (or stomach, or legs) hard enough to make them lose balance. ^^;a
Deep Blue 9000
05-12-07, 02:44 AM Trip (Ex)

If the astral construct hits with a slam attack, it can attempt to trip the opponent as a free action without making a touch attack or provoking attacks of opportunity. If the attempt fails, the opponent cannot react to trip the astral construct. .

Cleave [General]
Prerequisites

Str 13, Power Attack.
Benefit

If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop (typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points or killing it), you get an immediate, extra melee attack against another creature within reach. You cannot take a 5-foot step before making this extra attack. The extra attack is with the same weapon and at the same bonus as the attack that dropped the previous creature. You can use this ability once per round.
Special

A fighter may select Cleave as one of his fighter bonus feats.

I would say no.

The parenthetical text only mentions KOs as acceptable drops. I'm inclined to believe the authors suffered from lack of a thesaurus more than an intent to let trip attacks trigger cleave. Otherwise they could have simply had cleave trigger whenever your opponent falls to the ground.

However, in any case, the damage your Astral Construct caused did not cause the opponent to drop. It was the separate trip attack which caused that. A trip attack which triggers even if the original attack deals no damage due to DR or other effects.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Millenia 05-12-07, 01:49 AM	I know that Cleave states that one must do enough damage to drop/kill someone (reduce below 0 HP) in order to gain the extra attack, but I was curious as to how abilities such as the Astral Construct's Trip menu ability (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/astralConstruct.htm), which allows it to trip someone on a successful attack. While it does not reduce the opponent to 0 HP all the time, it does technically deal enough damage, -and- it makes the opponent fall, so.... would the attack + Trip (if successful) activate Cleave, in your opinion?
Rerecros 05-12-07, 02:00 AM	cleave works by a weapon passing through an opponent on a finishing blow, and immediately striking an adjacent opponent. Tiping usually involves grabing/hooking an oponent's leg and knocking him prone, an action to complicated to do in immediate succession.
TheRealOrion 05-12-07, 02:31 AM	That's how Cleave is described, but the rule is "If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop," then you get a Cleave attempt. That's it. You have to do enough actual damage, lethal or nonlethal, to make someone "drop," which implies unconsciousness to me. Tripping is something else entirely. I agree with your basic interpretation, but I think your reason for it doesn't quite hold water.
Millenia 05-12-07, 02:37 AM	I see... Thank you both. I shall keep it in mind. Well, Rerecros, I also kinda see it as an astral construct punching someone in the face (or stomach, or legs) hard enough to make them lose balance. ^^;a
Deep Blue 9000 05-12-07, 02:44 AM	Trip (Ex) If the astral construct hits with a slam attack, it can attempt to trip the opponent as a free action without making a touch attack or provoking attacks of opportunity. If the attempt fails, the opponent cannot react to trip the astral construct. . Cleave [General] Prerequisites Str 13, Power Attack. Benefit If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop (typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points or killing it), you get an immediate, extra melee attack against another creature within reach. You cannot take a 5-foot step before making this extra attack. The extra attack is with the same weapon and at the same bonus as the attack that dropped the previous creature. You can use this ability once per round. Special A fighter may select Cleave as one of his fighter bonus feats. I would say no. The parenthetical text only mentions KOs as acceptable drops. I'm inclined to believe the authors suffered from lack of a thesaurus more than an intent to let trip attacks trigger cleave. Otherwise they could have simply had cleave trigger whenever your opponent falls to the ground. However, in any case, the damage your Astral Construct caused did not cause the opponent to drop. It was the separate trip attack which caused that. A trip attack which triggers even if the original attack deals no damage due to DR or other effects.