Trip [Archive] - Wizards Community - Pages Merged by Solauren

Trip [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
DarkBrandon
03-30-08, 11:06 AM When a person is standing from being prone, you get an AoO. Can you use "trip" again to bring them down?

I don't think you can, but I had a discussion last night and I don't have the books to find the ruling on this.
Kratch
03-30-08, 12:03 PM When a person is standing from being prone, you get an AoO. Can you use "trip" again to bring them down?

I don't think you can, but I had a discussion last night and I don't have the books to find the ruling on this.

The AoO happens Prior to the action that provoked it, therefor the AoO provoked for standing up, happens before the person stands up, therefor they can't be tripped (but they also still take the penalty for being prone)
BugHunter
03-30-08, 01:36 PM This is covered in the FAQ here is the question on it.

"When a character gets up from prone, when does the attack of opportunity take place? When he is still prone? When he is standing? Can the attacker choose when to attack? In one case, the attacker can get a +4 bonus to hit.
In the other, he can make another trip attack."

"All attacks of opportunity happen before the actions that trigger them (see Chapter 8 in the Player’s Handbook). When you make an attack of opportunity against someone who’s getting up, your target is effectively prone, and therefore cannot be tripped. You could ready an action to trip a prone foe after he gets up, however."
wraithstrike
03-30-08, 03:14 PM I ignore that nonsense. You can't make the AoO until you see them about to stand up*. You won't know they are about to stand up until they are at least partly off the ground. My trip attack knocks them back down before they are back on their feet.

*I know RAW does not say this, but this should be the trigger to the AoO.

For those who argue by RAW I know you have to let them get back up, but I was just presenting an alternate view point.
DarkBrandon
03-31-08, 03:41 PM thank you.
TheRealOrion
03-31-08, 03:56 PM For those who argue by RAW I know you have to let them get back up, but I was just presenting an alternate view point.
And one that I think is actually pretty reasonable. The only problem with it is if it's abused to the point where that's the only thing a PC ever does, and has tweaked themselves out such that the almost always succeed. At that point, a good DM would just send something after him that (a) can't be tripped and/or (b) can attack quite well from a prone position.
wraithstrike
03-31-08, 10:15 PM And one that I think is actually pretty reasonable. The only problem with it is if it's abused to the point where that's the only thing a PC ever does, and has tweaked themselves out such that the almost always succeed. At that point, a good DM would just send something after him that (a) can't be tripped and/or (b) can attack quite well from a prone position.

There is feat for prone fighting, and unless the player has combat reflexes I would make him use the AoO on someone else, like someone else trying to sunder his weapon.
If a player build a one trick pony that is fine by me, because for every feat he puts into one area means that is one more thing I don't have to account for later.
ciaran
04-01-08, 12:38 AM I'm sure we could hammer this out, but my group has always houseruled that the AoO from standing can only be a regular attack, since we're had several guys doing the whole spiked chain thing.
BugHunter
04-01-08, 09:00 AM The AoO can be any attack except a trip attack.
Lord_Varos
04-01-08, 12:46 PM unless the player has combat reflexes I would make him use the AoO on someone else, like someone else trying to sunder his weapon.
You can't force a PC to take an attack of opportunity; they always have a choice in the matter. In your example, they could elect to not take the AoO and count on a high attack bonus to save them.

Oh, unless you mean that you will pressure them to take the AoO by exposing them to dangerous situations which an AoO could possibly remedy. Then, yeah, good strategy.
wraithstrike
04-01-08, 06:58 PM You can't force a PC to take an attack of opportunity; they always have a choice in the matter. In your example, they could elect to not take the AoO and count on a high attack bonus to save them.

Oh, unless you mean that you will pressure them to take the AoO by exposing them to dangerous situations which an AoO could possibly remedy. Then, yeah, good strategy.

I was saying the pressure thing, not "I control the character now".
mplindustries
04-02-08, 01:43 AM The AoO happens Prior to the action that provoked it, therefor the AoO provoked for standing up, happens before the person stands up, therefor they can't be tripped (but they also still take the penalty for being prone)
This is partially/mostly correct. There is a subtle issue however. Nothing about the text of trip suggests you can't do it to a prone opponent. It simply would have no appreciable effect without some kind of "rider effect."

Now the difference is slight, and the FAQ is actually wrong here, but you can trip someone who is prone. However, as Kratch identified correctly, the AoO happens, by RAW, before they stand up. That means, you trip them, and they then continue their action, which was to stand up. Nothing about getting tripped stops an action from being undertaken (unlike in Warcraft, getting knocked down doesn't stop what you're doing). At the end of the exchange, they are standing, so its not really effective or worthwhile, but it is not impossible to do.

As I mentioned before, there could be "rider effects" on a trip. Perhaps you have some kind of ability that triggers on a successful trip or they have something that triggers upon being tripped. There is nothing stopping you from using those on a prone target. They just can't be made any "more prone" than they already are, so the major benefit of the trip manuever is effectively lost.

PS - While RAW is one thing, for my games, I totally agree with wraithstrike. There is no logical reason why someone lying down suddenly opens themself up to attack just seconds before they start to stand. Though its not really come up in any games I've run, I would certainly not stop someone from tripping an opponent "on the way up."

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DarkBrandon 03-30-08, 11:06 AM	When a person is standing from being prone, you get an AoO. Can you use "trip" again to bring them down? I don't think you can, but I had a discussion last night and I don't have the books to find the ruling on this.
Kratch 03-30-08, 12:03 PM	When a person is standing from being prone, you get an AoO. Can you use "trip" again to bring them down? I don't think you can, but I had a discussion last night and I don't have the books to find the ruling on this. The AoO happens Prior to the action that provoked it, therefor the AoO provoked for standing up, happens before the person stands up, therefor they can't be tripped (but they also still take the penalty for being prone)
BugHunter 03-30-08, 01:36 PM	This is covered in the FAQ here is the question on it. "When a character gets up from prone, when does the attack of opportunity take place? When he is still prone? When he is standing? Can the attacker choose when to attack? In one case, the attacker can get a +4 bonus to hit. In the other, he can make another trip attack." "All attacks of opportunity happen before the actions that trigger them (see Chapter 8 in the Player’s Handbook). When you make an attack of opportunity against someone who’s getting up, your target is effectively prone, and therefore cannot be tripped. You could ready an action to trip a prone foe after he gets up, however."
wraithstrike 03-30-08, 03:14 PM	I ignore that nonsense. You can't make the AoO until you see them about to stand up. You won't know they are about to stand up until they are at least partly off the ground. My trip attack knocks them back down before they are back on their feet. I know RAW does not say this, but this should be the trigger to the AoO. For those who argue by RAW I know you have to let them get back up, but I was just presenting an alternate view point.
DarkBrandon 03-31-08, 03:41 PM	thank you.
TheRealOrion 03-31-08, 03:56 PM	For those who argue by RAW I know you have to let them get back up, but I was just presenting an alternate view point. And one that I think is actually pretty reasonable. The only problem with it is if it's abused to the point where that's the only thing a PC ever does, and has tweaked themselves out such that the almost always succeed. At that point, a good DM would just send something after him that (a) can't be tripped and/or (b) can attack quite well from a prone position.
wraithstrike 03-31-08, 10:15 PM	And one that I think is actually pretty reasonable. The only problem with it is if it's abused to the point where that's the only thing a PC ever does, and has tweaked themselves out such that the almost always succeed. At that point, a good DM would just send something after him that (a) can't be tripped and/or (b) can attack quite well from a prone position. There is feat for prone fighting, and unless the player has combat reflexes I would make him use the AoO on someone else, like someone else trying to sunder his weapon. If a player build a one trick pony that is fine by me, because for every feat he puts into one area means that is one more thing I don't have to account for later.
ciaran 04-01-08, 12:38 AM	I'm sure we could hammer this out, but my group has always houseruled that the AoO from standing can only be a regular attack, since we're had several guys doing the whole spiked chain thing.
BugHunter 04-01-08, 09:00 AM	The AoO can be any attack except a trip attack.
Lord_Varos 04-01-08, 12:46 PM	unless the player has combat reflexes I would make him use the AoO on someone else, like someone else trying to sunder his weapon. You can't force a PC to take an attack of opportunity; they always have a choice in the matter. In your example, they could elect to not take the AoO and count on a high attack bonus to save them. Oh, unless you mean that you will pressure them to take the AoO by exposing them to dangerous situations which an AoO could possibly remedy. Then, yeah, good strategy.
wraithstrike 04-01-08, 06:58 PM	You can't force a PC to take an attack of opportunity; they always have a choice in the matter. In your example, they could elect to not take the AoO and count on a high attack bonus to save them. Oh, unless you mean that you will pressure them to take the AoO by exposing them to dangerous situations which an AoO could possibly remedy. Then, yeah, good strategy. I was saying the pressure thing, not "I control the character now".
mplindustries 04-02-08, 01:43 AM	The AoO happens Prior to the action that provoked it, therefor the AoO provoked for standing up, happens before the person stands up, therefor they can't be tripped (but they also still take the penalty for being prone) This is partially/mostly correct. There is a subtle issue however. Nothing about the text of trip suggests you can't do it to a prone opponent. It simply would have no appreciable effect without some kind of "rider effect." Now the difference is slight, and the FAQ is actually wrong here, but you can trip someone who is prone. However, as Kratch identified correctly, the AoO happens, by RAW, before they stand up. That means, you trip them, and they then continue their action, which was to stand up. Nothing about getting tripped stops an action from being undertaken (unlike in Warcraft, getting knocked down doesn't stop what you're doing). At the end of the exchange, they are standing, so its not really effective or worthwhile, but it is not impossible to do. As I mentioned before, there could be "rider effects" on a trip. Perhaps you have some kind of ability that triggers on a successful trip or they have something that triggers upon being tripped. There is nothing stopping you from using those on a prone target. They just can't be made any "more prone" than they already are, so the major benefit of the trip manuever is effectively lost. PS - While RAW is one thing, for my games, I totally agree with wraithstrike. There is no logical reason why someone lying down suddenly opens themself up to attack just seconds before they start to stand. Though its not really come up in any games I've run, I would certainly not stop someone from tripping an opponent "on the way up."