Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tectorman 04-25-07, 10:14 AM	The Catfolk Pounce in the Races of the Wild book lets a Catfolk take a full attack action at the end of a charge, provided the target of the charge is flat-footed. However, flat-footedness usually comes at the beginning of a surprise round where you are limited to either a standard action or a move action. In the Player's Handbook, it says that the Charge action may be taken as a standard action should you be limited to a standard action that round, provided you move no more than 1 x your land speed. So, could a Catfolk charge on a surprise round, moving no more than 1 x his land speed, and still do a full attack? Is that full attack considered part of the charge action and therefore also allowable within a standard action, or does the standard action clause only apply to a normal charge?
RobbyPants 04-25-07, 10:40 AM	I guess this is opinion talking more than fact and RAW reference, but I'd say no. A typical charge is a full-round action as is a full attack. A partial charge is a standard action, as is a single attack. That line of reasoning would make me think that it would just get a single attack on the surprise round. Until I actually read the accompanying text in all the sections, I can't say for sure though. This could be one of those uber broken loop holes that still needs to be nerfed with an errata. As for the flat-footed part: if you beat your opponent on initiative (likely if you're a catfolk), then they'll still be flat-footed when you act on the first full round of combat. Charge away!
tarkin 04-25-07, 10:42 AM	I think you let them do the full attack even if it was a surprise round. They have a standard action and are using it to charge. They have a special power that lets them do a full attack at the end of a charge. While yes, normally a full attack requires a full round action, this is an exception to that rule.
Emeramber 04-25-07, 11:33 AM	I'm in total agreement with Tarkin (so odd to type those words...) The standard action charge is still a charge, and pounce is activated by a charge. It works for catfolk, it works for lions, tigers, and bears... well, maybe not bears, but you get the point.
Aracor 04-25-07, 11:53 AM	Agreed. They get the full attack.
DarkRhystar 04-25-07, 12:11 PM	However, flat-footedness usually comes at the beginning of a surprise round where you are limited to either a standard action or a move action. All creatures are flatfooted in battle until their first initiative comes up. As long as the Catfolk character wins initiative over at least one enemy, he can charge and pounce on that enemy. So, could a Catfolk charge on a surprise round, moving no more than 1 x his land speed, and still do a full attack? Is that full attack considered part of the charge action and therefore also allowable within a standard action, or does the standard action clause only apply to a normal charge? I'm in the camp that doesn't allow the partial charge during a surprise round, so no.
Aracor 04-25-07, 12:16 PM	I'm in the camp that doesn't allow the partial charge during a surprise round, so no. Wait a minute. A 'partial charge' during a surprise round is explicitly allowed in the rules. If you don't allow it, fine, but you're weakening melee creatures over archers and casters, and you're definitely house-ruling.
DarkRhystar 04-25-07, 12:26 PM	Wait a minute. A 'partial charge' during a surprise round is explicitly allowed in the rules. If you don't allow it, fine, but you're weakening melee creatures over archers and casters, and you're definitely house-ruling. Fair enough. House rule or RAW, it's not a debate worth cluttering this thread with.
Peregrine_Wolf 04-25-07, 04:45 PM	I built a charater based mostly on this feat and a few others that buff it... Spellthief 9/ Sorc 1/ Daggerspell Mage 10 Feats: Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon-Focus(Dagger), Weapon Finesse(Dagger), Catfolk Pounce, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Initiative, Quick Reconnoiter. SINK INTO DEX!! +at least 18 or so to initiative, spot and listen as free actions for any random enemies you migth have missed, then charge the strongest enemy you can safely get to. You get Full Attack with both daggers at +12/+7/+2 for each hand, total of 6 attacks for 1D4+6D6 SA+ any bonus you might have on your daggers. If you place your arcane caster stuff from Dag Mage into Sorc, you can use Daggerspell Flurry to launch off a cone of cold etc. to take out some random stuff, it's a pretty good combo.
DarkRhystar 04-25-07, 05:42 PM	I built a charater based mostly on this feat and a few others that buff it... Spellthief 9/ Sorc 1/ Daggerspell Mage 10 Feats: Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon-Focus(Dagger), Weapon Finesse(Dagger), Catfolk Pounce, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Initiative, Quick Reconnoiter. SINK INTO DEX!! +at least 18 or so to initiative, spot and listen as free actions for any random enemies you migth have missed, then charge the strongest enemy you can safely get to. You get Full Attack with both daggers at +12/+7/+2 for each hand, total of 6 attacks for 1D4+6D6 SA+ any bonus you might have on your daggers. If you place your arcane caster stuff from Dag Mage into Sorc, you can use Daggerspell Flurry to launch off a cone of cold etc. to take out some random stuff, it's a pretty good combo. You do realize: You've lost 7 BAB from your level progression. You're taking the -2 penalties to AB from TWF on top of that BAB loss. The write up claims 3 attacks for each hand and doesn't have GTWF (no feats left). You need 34 dexterity to get that vaunted +18 to initiative. None of the classes have better than a d6 HD. Overall that's a sub par build. It doesn't have the AB to hit well, the HD to take hits well, and the write-up is flawed. Tsk tsk.
BugHunter 04-25-07, 10:22 PM	You do realize: You've lost 7 BAB from your level progression. You're taking the -2 penalties to AB from TWF on top of that BAB loss. The write up claims 3 attacks for each hand and doesn't have GTWF (no feats left). You need 34 dexterity to get that vaunted +18 to initiative. None of the classes have better than a d6 HD. Overall that's a sub par build. It doesn't have the AB to hit well, the HD to take hits well, and the write-up is flawed. Tsk tsk. Don't forget to throw in the 20% xp penalty for being a 1st level sorcerer since Catfolks favored class is ranger.
ferreon 04-26-07, 04:51 PM	or take the Neraph Charge feat from Planar handbook one dex denying charge against every opponent per encounter, even after they stop being flatfooted? I'd think it should be on every catfolks list of favourite toys
DarkRhystar 04-26-07, 04:56 PM	or take the Neraph Charge feat from Planar handbook one dex denying charge against every opponent per encounter, even after they stop being flatfooted? I'd think it should be on every catfolks list of favourite toys The 15 wisdom prerequisite makes that a very costly feat if none of your classes require a high wisdom.
Lotus Crane 04-27-07, 01:34 AM	The 15 wisdom prerequisite makes that a very costly feat if none of your classes require a high wisdom. Well, with ranger as the favored class of catfolk, I'd imagine most would want an Wis of at least 14 anyway, just to be able to cast all the possible ranger spells. Alternatively, it could work for a catfolk swordsage (who would also benefit from a high Wis). Heck, the cloak of deception boost would be an ideal way to abuse Catfolk Pounce as well.
DarkRhystar 04-27-07, 01:38 AM	Well, with ranger as the favored class of catfolk, I'd imagine most would want an Wis of at least 14 anyway, just to be able to cast all the possible ranger spells. Alternatively, it could work for a catfolk swordsage (who would also benefit from a high Wis). Heck, the cloak of deception boost would be an ideal way to abuse Catfolk Pounce as well. To be fair, Ranger isn't the class that most benefits from a full attack at the end of a charge though. Classes like the Scout and Rogue are, and they don't need a heavy investment in Wisdom. The Catfolk Swordsage is an interesting idea I hadn't thought of though, good call.