Post/Author/DateTime	Post
gelalshawr 02-21-07, 02:38 PM	Forgive me if this has already been brought up, I went back a few pages and didn't see anything, and I checked the errata for ToM and didn't find anything fixing this and i didn't want to believe that if it had been brought up it would not have been fixed. So, that being said, here's my quandary: The DC's for truespeak checks are beyond rediculous. at low levels, they're not so bad, but once you get beyond 10th level the DC for naming anything with a comperable CR becomes nigh impossible. (The DC for any Truespeak check is 15+(2x target's CR) or HD if the creature has no CR, like a PC) Human Truenamer, max int max ranks in Truespeak (including spending all ability points into Int every 4 levels) level Skill modifier DC for equal CR 1st: 8 17 2nd: 9 19 3rd: 10 21 4th: 11 23 5th: 12 25 ... 10th: 18 35 ... 15th: 23 45 ... 20th: 29 55 Now, this means, that at 20th level, with no magical enhancements to my intelligence, I need to roll a 26 on a d20 in order to affect something that is equal level to me, with anything, and that's not even considering Personal truenames, by this formula, it becomes impossible to correctly say my OWN personal truename by 18th level. and that's ONLY if you min/max your character. The Truenamer class is a casting class, it is defined by it's ability to wield the truespeak language, no other class in the entire game requires constant skill checks to perform it's primary function (except perhaps rogues), To make the difficulty class of this classes primary ability rolls increase at twice the rate of that classes bonuses is nothing short of pointless.
Echo_that_Pains 02-21-07, 02:40 PM	Yes this has been covered before although I do not have a link to any thread. The general fix was change the "2x CR/HD" to "CR/HD" and it seems to work well.
gelalshawr 02-21-07, 02:45 PM	I kind of figured that's what would happen in any house rules, I would just like an official errata to fix something that is so obviously broken
Iarmeister 02-21-07, 02:48 PM	How bad would it be tho' to invest a feat in Skill Focus: Truespeak, and then get a Headband of Intellect, and then dump some ability increases into your Int score?? Would that not help out significantly??
gelalshawr 02-21-07, 02:55 PM	How bad would it be tho' to invest a feat in Skill Focus: Truespeak, and then get a Headband of Intellect, and then dump some ability increases into your Int score?? Would that not help out significantly?? I had already taken the ability increases to intelligence into account, if you will notice, the skill focus feat grants a +3 to the skill, and at 20th level the best headband of intellect you can buy gives a +6 to int, granting another +3 to your roll, still by this math you have to roll a natural 20 to affect anything with a CR of 20, or your 20th level buddies, with ANY of your utterances, the only exception to this is affecting yourself using your own Personal Truename, which you get a -2 because personal truenames are harder to say, but a +4 because it's yours. Even so, you still need an 18 or better on a d20 to affect yourself with your own utterances and recitations.
eggplantm 02-21-07, 03:00 PM	This has been covered so many times! OK. First off, when you say something is broken more often it is meant that it is too good. You are saying it is too weak. You claim it is too weak because a regular character who took no magic items or feats to boost it will be unable to compete and make his skill DC's. That is true but why would a person do that? Wizards and fighters spend almost all their money to get one maybe two stats way up there and buy all kinds of magic doodads to make it easier to perform their function. Let's see it again with a level 20 truespeaker that started with a 18 intelligence. by 20 level, we have a +5 inherent, +5 from a book, +6 from a head band for a 34 intelligence for a +12 bonus. Skill ranks are 23 of course so +23 Skill focus for +3 Amulet for +10 though it is easy to see how to build a more powerful one for cheap money. Total so far is +12 +23 +3 +10 = +48. You will hit a 55 for a CR 20 on a roll 7 or better. Again, this is really the tip of the iceberg. Look hard and you will see how some people have found every skill boosting item and spell to make the DC 55 a non-issue.
gelalshawr 02-21-07, 03:08 PM	Let's see it again with a level 20 truespeaker that started with a 18 intelligence. Total so far is +12 +23 +3 +10 = +48. You will hit a 55 for a CR 20 on a roll 7 or better. Again, this is really the tip of the iceberg. Look hard and you will see how some people have found every skill boosting item and spell to make the DC 55 a non-issue. So, you get hit by a Mordenkainen's Dysjunction and you instantly become a useless character, and I know you'll say a mage in an anti-magic field is in the same boat, but then, so is a truenamer in an anti-magic field, honestly, the only way for a Truenamer to be a viable class is through min/maxing and having a Monty Haul DM.
Krusk 02-21-07, 03:15 PM	As written the class is entirly worthless you are correct. The solution many people come up with is to have the dm, or your crafting friend create custom magic items for you. The other solution is to change the truespeak check if you dont want items to just always happen to be the one specific item you needed. As of yet there is no official errata for the class. Its a shame really, cause it sounds like a cool idea.
jameswilliamogle 02-21-07, 03:59 PM	I've been making excel sheets for the odds of succeeding at a Truespeach check. I don't know how to put the graphs up, but I summarize some of the results here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11530612&postcount=103). All you need to do to have a relatively good chance of success is to take Skill Focus when you can, buy Amulet of the Silver Toungue when you can afford it, Headbands of Intellect as you can afford it, and Tome of Thought in the last few levels. This will give >> 50% chance against CR = CL creatures. The best levels using this strategy are between 9th and 12th level, when the odds are really good. You can't succeed as a Truenamer w/o these items, though: that much is true. If you can start as an Illumian, and decide to take a single level of Marshall, it approaches 100% fairly early (CR=CL). If any Truenamer is allowed to take Item Familiar (UA), and invests skills to enhance Truespeech, then it does give 100% chance of success (CR=CL). In short, if you make it = CR, then you make it too easy, as an auto-check of 40+ is possible w/o using variant rules (+23 ranks, +10 item, +3 int item, +9 int = 45). That's without Item Familiar, Illumian + Enhanced Sigils, Marshall, or Custom Items. The TN would have a 55% chance, as is, of affecting a CR 20 creature with a particular Utterance. If you keep it = 2 X CR, it isn't horrid, but each truename check becomes increasingly more difficult to do that day (you might be able to do 2-3 of each known Utterance reliably). This is on par with a Battle Sorcerer on spells/day. ________________________________________ _______ I still think its a wonky mechanic, but it is usable as is. Something like DC 15 + 2 X CR - 1/2 Truenamer Level would be nicer, to me. The thing that I really don't like is that low level utterances are just as hard as high level ones: lower level ones should be easier. Also, I don't like how CR is so important to the calculations. Why couldn't they have just made it 20+CR? All the big offensive Utterances have saves on top of that, anyways. What's the point of succeeding on the check when it just bounces harmlessly away?
Vegepygmy 02-21-07, 04:08 PM	Let's see it again with a level 20 truespeaker that started with a 18 intelligence. by 20 level, we have a +5 inherent, +5 from a book,If by "book" you mean a Tome of Clear Thought or some such item...no, that provides an inherent bonus and thus does not stack with other inherent bonuses. Amulet for +10Assuming your DM allows such an item, of course.
jameswilliamogle 02-21-07, 04:13 PM	If by "book" you mean a Tome of Clear Thought or some such item...no, that provides an inherent bonus and thus does not stack with other inherent bonuses. Assuming your DM allows such an item, of course.He meant +5 stat boosts, then +5 inherent from a book. That +10 item is an item from Tome of Magic: Amulet of the Silver Tongue. If the DM is allowing the Truenamer, they should allow that. And don't forget about the Universal Aptitude Utterance: +5 on skill checks for 5 rounds (extendable). Great 1st level buff for TN's. Luckstone gives another +1 bonus. But yeah, AM field or MDJ kills the Truenamer. It screws almost every class out there.
Harliquinn 02-21-07, 04:17 PM	The main problem with the Truenamer is that the DC check is penalized every other time you use a particular ability.
jameswilliamogle 02-21-07, 04:18 PM	The main problem with the Truenamer is that the DC check is penalized every other time you use a particular ability.True, but they still can get 2-3 a day out reliably, and thats for each Utterance. It isn't that bad, folks, honest! I'm playing one in a very normal campaign, and I usually only fail 1 a day (which has no drawbacks, other than lost time, but I'm playing as a primary caster, so no biggie). Try playing it as is, maybe getting someone to design a 1-shot adventure at some predetermined ECL, and report back.
savant_warlord13 02-21-07, 04:27 PM	How bad would it be tho' to invest a feat in Skill Focus: Truespeak, and then get a Headband of Intellect, and then dump some ability increases into your Int score?? Would that not help out significantly?? You would think you should be able to say your own truename without magical bonuses, though.
jameswilliamogle 02-21-07, 04:55 PM	You would think you should be able to say your own truename without magical bonuses, though.True, but you do have a +4 bonus to affect yourself, which is close to a free Extend Utterance. The record for Truespeach in a 20 level build is 102 (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=614007), as far as I know, which means 23 auto-successes using the same utterance per day. Even without cohorts and ultra-buffing, a 56 check is doable using all the available tricks (still no Item Familiar), and Item Familiar turns a normal TN's check into a 71, or 7 automatic utterances per day per utterance. The main problem that I think a lot of people have w/ the class is that you have to optimize to make it work. It would've been much more widely accepted if the creators just made it a flat % chance at each level.
Zaistars69 02-21-07, 05:07 PM	Dude, MDJ is not as uber as everyone makes it out to be. Sure you'll loose a couple magic items but it's a will save to avoid for each of your magic items. My 15th level caster can make a DC 31 will save at least half the time. (assuming a 34 casting stat). Hell give me a couple more levels and that number will go up. The true name wouldn't necessarily be screwed but yea hampered.
gelalshawr 02-21-07, 06:21 PM	ok, good responses mostly, but the main problem i have is that at higher levels, truespeak LITERALLY requires you to have magical items to boost your abilities before you can do anything, mages and sorcerors do not, before i can even cast Universal Aptitude on myself I need to succeed on a truespeak check for that, and when you quote your +4 to speak your personal truename you're not taking into account the +2 to the DC to speak ANY personal truename.
gelalshawr 02-21-07, 06:26 PM	The record for Truespeach in a 20 level build is 102 (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=614007), as far as I know, which means 23 auto-successes using the same utterance per day. Even without cohorts and ultra-buffing, a 56 check is doable using all the available tricks (still no Item Familiar), and Item Familiar turns a normal TN's check into a 71, or 7 automatic utterances per day per utterance. Problem, The build you are quoting here is adding Charisma bonuses to the Truespeak check
Kapalen 02-21-07, 06:37 PM	Problem, The build you are quoting here is adding Charisma bonuses to the Truespeak check Marshal's motivate inteligence aura. THink about it from a flavor standpoint... of course you need magical assistance when you're trying to mess with the stuff the entire universe is made of, taht only makes sense to me.
gelalshawr 02-21-07, 06:40 PM	Marshal's motivate inteligence aura. THink about it from a flavor standpoint... of course you need magical assistance when you're trying to mess with the stuff the entire universe is made of, taht only makes sense to me. I don't need magical assistance to cast Fireball
Jaxgaret 02-21-07, 08:09 PM	ok, good responses mostly, but the main problem i have is that at higher levels, truespeak LITERALLY requires you to have magical items to boost your abilities before you can do anything, mages and sorcerors do not, before i can even cast Universal Aptitude on myself I don't need magical assistance to cast Fireball :heehee I'm assuming you're talking about the Amulet of the Silver Tongue? Which is a... skill bonus item. Wow. What a crazy magical item that is. How broken.
gelalshawr 02-21-07, 08:14 PM	:heehee I'm assuming you're talking about the Amulet of the Silver Tongue? Which is a... skill bonus item. Wow. What a crazy magical item that is. How broken. do you have any clue what you're talking about? I never said anything about the Amulet of the Silver Tongue
Jaxgaret 02-21-07, 08:17 PM	do you have any clue what you're talking about? I never said anything about the Amulet of the Silver Tongue Edited my previous post. Yes, yes I do have a clue.
gelalshawr 02-21-07, 08:35 PM	So, due to a lack of response from any writers and a lack of sufficient errata, I have made this formula, it's a little more complex, but I think I like it better than just dropping the DC to 15+target's CR DC for Truespeak check: 10+ target's CR/HD + (level of utterance x 1/2/3) the multiplier for the level of utterance would be based on the Lexicon it's from, x1 for Lexicon of the Evolving Mind, x2 for Lexicon of the Crafted Tool, and x3 for lexicon of the Perfected Map. (leave the errata'd rule for area DC's alone for this) This makes higher level utterances more difficult to use (which makes sense to me), but still allows me to feasibly use my utterances without the need for items. In light of the builds that I've seen... (although IMHO any DM that allows such a thing is more interested in rollplaying than roleplaying) I think the Law of resistance should be rewritten to -5 per successive use of an utterance instead of -2.
gelalshawr 02-21-07, 08:39 PM	Edited my previous post. Yes, yes I do have a clue. Ok, you have a clue what YOU are talking about, but apparently, not what I'm talking about, my whole problem is I don't think a caster should be required to have any outside magical aid before he's able to cast a simple spell on himself. I don't need a headband of intellect to cast mage armor on myself as a lvl 20 wizard, so why do I need an amulet of the Silver Tongue in order to use my first level utterances on myself
Jaxgaret 02-21-07, 10:37 PM	Ok, you have a clue what YOU are talking about, but apparently, not what I'm talking about, my whole problem is I don't think a caster should be required to have any outside magical aid before he's able to cast a simple spell on himself. I don't need a headband of intellect to cast mage armor on myself as a lvl 20 wizard, so why do I need an amulet of the Silver Tongue in order to use my first level utterances on myself Oh, so your problem is more with using Utterances on the Truenamer itself, rather than with affecting other creatures. Simply change the personal rule about Truenamers getting a +4 to affecting themselves to a +X, where X is however high you think it should be. Problem solved.
runestar 02-21-07, 10:42 PM	Ok, you have a clue what YOU are talking about, but apparently, not what I'm talking about, my whole problem is I don't think a caster should be required to have any outside magical aid before he's able to cast a simple spell on himself. I don't need a headband of intellect to cast mage armor on myself as a lvl 20 wizard, so why do I need an amulet of the Silver Tongue in order to use my first level utterances on myself The problem is that if they made truename checks reasonable for people without reliance on external aid, then it quickly becomes broken for those who do. Rather, it would be better to simply assume that the players will go out of their way to maximize their truename checks, and factor in this assumption into determining what a "reasonable" dc is. Let's see what a lv20 wizard can master... 23 ranks +12 int(base18, +5 lvup. +5inherent, +6enhancement) +10 competence(magic item) +3 skill focus +4 morale(greater heroism) I think there are a few spells granting insight and other bonuses to skill checks, but I will omit them since I can't recall what they are offhand. That is a base truename score of 52. You need only a roll of 3 or more to affect a creature of the same cr. And I wasn't even trying. CO boards purport being able to master a truename check of 100+....:eek:
jameswilliamogle 02-21-07, 10:51 PM	Ok, you have a clue what YOU are talking about, but apparently, not what I'm talking about, my whole problem is I don't think a caster should be required to have any outside magical aid before he's able to cast a simple spell on himself. I don't need a headband of intellect to cast mage armor on myself as a lvl 20 wizard, so why do I need an amulet of the Silver Tongue in order to use my first level utterances on myselfOK, sure, to cast a spell a spellcaster won't have to rely on magical items. If they don't, the odds of the spell affecting a particular target aren't so great, though, as a CR 20 creature has pretty tough saves (and yes, I realize there's plenty of spells w/o saves or SR: these are problems of primary spellcasters' power, not a failure on the Truenamer's part). Sure, a player might see the DM describe a dragon, and immediately cast Assay Resistance without a Knowledge check, but thats metagame cheesiness. (And don't forget the TN has UMD, medium BAB, and a bunch of other cool class abilities.) Trying to compare any of the newer base classes to the core spellcasters would be pretty futile: none of them will be able to compete. I was only trying to demonstrate that the skill check as is isn't bad. It makes the Truenamer have to invest in the same equipment as a normal spellcaster, which should be expected. If your DC calc works for your campaign, then its good, BUT I highly recomend that you try playing the Truenamer as is first, before modifying it. The +4 bonus on personal truename, RAW, gives you +4 any time you affect yourself w/ Truename magic, not just when you use your Personal Truename (p 233, 1st column, 2nd full paragraph, last sentance).
ArcTan 02-21-07, 11:01 PM	So, you get hit by a Mordenkainen's Dysjunction and you instantly become a useless character, and I know you'll say a mage in an anti-magic field is in the same boat, but then, so is a truenamer in an anti-magic field, honestly, the only way for a Truenamer to be a viable class is through min/maxing and having a Monty Haul DM. You realize that a Wizard can lose his spellbook from an MDJ, and that leaves him just as if not more screwed, right?
Krusk 02-21-07, 11:05 PM	I was simply running from the experience a truenamer had when she played one in a game i ran. She got the +10 item and she was still totally unable to be effective once she hit level 12. I dont know how optimised she was, but her character would maybe succeed on one check a day. At most.
ArcTan 02-21-07, 11:05 PM	Ok, you have a clue what YOU are talking about, but apparently, not what I'm talking about, my whole problem is I don't think a caster should be required to have any outside magical aid before he's able to cast a simple spell on himself. I don't need a headband of intellect to cast mage armor on myself as a lvl 20 wizard, so why do I need an amulet of the Silver Tongue in order to use my first level utterances on myself Because Truenaming is different from arcane spellcasting? Sheesh, this is no different from people who complain that Psions can spend all their PPs on 9th-level powers and that they don't ever need spell components. The *point* of these new systems is that they're *different* from traditional arcane spellcasting. If they weren't, there'd be no point. So yes, in Truenaming the nature of the target (its CR) matters a lot more than the nature of the spell when it comes to how difficult it is to use. That's the *point*. Change that and you greatly erode the point of having a new system.
runestar 02-21-07, 11:19 PM	I was simply running from the experience a truenamer had when she played one in a game i ran. She got the +10 item and she was still totally unable to be effective once she hit level 12. I dont know how optimised she was, but her character would maybe succeed on one check a day. At most. Base 15 ranks +6 int from 22 int +2 heroism +3 skill focus +10 competence item You can't succeed with a truename check of 36+d20?:confused:
yrogerg 02-21-07, 11:21 PM	You realize that a Wizard can lose his spellbook from an MDJ, and that leaves him just as if not more screwed, right? He still has his prepared spells (which he can even re-scribe, if he doesn't cast them), at the very least. He's hosed eventually, but only after the end of the encounter. The truenamer is notably more hosed than that. Also, whether a Wizard's spellbook counts as a magic item or a collection of scrolls or a mundane item is sorta a grey area in the rules. Note that it's in the "Items and Equipment" section of the SRD, though, not the Magic Items section.
yrogerg 02-21-07, 11:30 PM	Because Truenaming is different from arcane spellcasting? Sheesh, this is no different from people who complain that Psions can spend all their PPs on 9th-level powers and that they don't ever need spell components. The *point* of these new systems is that they're *different* from traditional arcane spellcasting. If they weren't, there'd be no point. So yes, in Truenaming the nature of the target (its CR) matters a lot more than the nature of the spell when it comes to how difficult it is to use. That's the *point*. Change that and you greatly erode the point of having a new system. Right, and there's nothing inherently wrong with having such a system, but you still have to admit that there's something a bit screwy with the balance when a character has to be fully optimized, outfitted, and buffed in order to hit the 50% mark for successful actions against its own CR. After all, who actually restricts themselves to fights at or under their own CR in this game?
Jaxgaret 02-22-07, 12:11 AM	Right, and there's nothing inherently wrong with having such a system, but you still have to admit that there's something a bit screwy with the balance when a character has to be fully optimized, outfitted, and buffed in order to hit the 50% mark for successful actions against its own CR. After all, who actually restricts themselves to fights at or under their own CR in this game? Looking at some of the calculations done above, the fully optimized, outfitted, and buffed Truenamer succeeds on its Truename check well above 50% of the time against equal CR. It is a less than optimized Truenamer that has an approximate 50% success rate. BTW everyone thank you for responding as you did to the response to my earlier post. I appreciate the gesture :)
Kapalen 02-22-07, 12:23 AM	I don't need magical assistance to cast Fireball Fireballs and bat poop don't hold the fabric of existence together, truespeech does.
jameswilliamogle 02-22-07, 09:38 AM	Right, and there's nothing inherently wrong with having such a system, but you still have to admit that there's something a bit screwy with the balance when a character has to be fully optimized, outfitted, and buffed in order to hit the 50% mark for successful actions against its own CR. After all, who actually restricts themselves to fights at or under their own CR in this game?But thats the problem, isn't it? Truespeech works under the assumption that the character will be optimized. A lot of people have problems with that (obviously). A flat % based on level and CR would've been better (or at least more accepted). Something like: Truespeech Level = CR: 50% adjust up 10% for each CR greater adjust down 10% for each CR lower. Reduce by 10% for each time you used that utterance that day. Effects that increase the check DC increase it by 5% for each point of increase the skill check increases (so, extending is 25% more difficult, quickening is 50% more difficult, etc). Items, Int bonus, Truespeech skill, and feats that give bonuses to Truespeech checks increase it by 1% per +1 bonus. Reduce the check by 5% for each level of utterance you can use below the maximum level of utterance you know for that particular Lexicon. For example: Gregory the 10th level Truenamer has 13 ranks, Skill Focus, a starting 18 Int, +2 Int from leveling, +4 Int Hat, and a +10 necklace of the silver tongue. If he faces = CR creatures, he has a 83% chance of affecting the target with a particular Utterance (lets make the utterance: Word of Nurturing, Potent). If he Extends it he has a 58% chance of effecting himself, giving him fast healing 10 over 10 rounds. If he quickens it, he only has a 33% chance of success, but loses no real actions in doing so. If he uses Speed of the Zephyr, he has an 88% chance of success on himself, since it is 1 level below the maximum level of utterance for the Lexicon of the Unfettered Mind that he knows. If he uses a Quickened Inertia Surge to keep an enemy from moving, he has an (83% - 50% + 15%) = 48% chance of succeeding. For just buffing himself with Extended Potent Nurturing, normally, he can do it 9 times per day: that's 450 points of healing, with just 1 utterance, but the success rates make it usable in combat maybe 4-5 times per day, and he'll be wasting a lot of combat actions to make it work. Even with no bonus to the checks at all, he still has a chance to affect creatures 4 CR higher than himself, but its slim: he's much better off just trying to buff his allies. This works out just fine, no?
gelalshawr 02-22-07, 09:52 AM	Looking at some of the calculations done above, the fully optimized, outfitted, and buffed Truenamer succeeds on its Truename check well above 50% of the time against equal CR. It is a less than optimized Truenamer that has an approximate 50% success rate. BTW everyone thank you for responding as you did to the response to my earlier post. I appreciate the gesture :) And this is partially my point, I shouldn't have to min/max my character to make it playable, to make it massively powerful, yes, but just to make it playable?
gelalshawr 02-22-07, 09:57 AM	The +4 bonus on personal truename, RAW, gives you +4 any time you affect yourself w/ Truename magic, not just when you use your Personal Truename (p 233, 1st column, 2nd full paragraph, last sentance). right and if you ONLY read that last sentence I can see how you believe that, but the if you read the rest of the paragraph it clearly implies that the Truenamer is using his own personal truename any time he tries to target himself.
jameswilliamogle 02-22-07, 10:20 AM	right and if you ONLY read that last sentence I can see how you believe that, but the if you read the rest of the paragraph it clearly implies that the Truenamer is using his own personal truename any time he tries to target himself.That is not what the paragraph says at all. The paragraph above it says what happens when speaking personal truename of a creature, mechanically. The paragraph below gives the +4 bonus for effecting yourself with any Truename magic, not just when you are affecting yourself with a Personal Truename effect. If what you say is what was meant, then it would've said "+4 for saying your own personal truename". That may have been a flaw on the authors' part, but so is the DC in the first place.
runestar 02-22-07, 11:22 AM	And this is partially my point, I shouldn't have to min/max my character to make it playable, to make it massively powerful, yes, but just to make it playable? Typically, you might be correct. However, the way truename is structured, you either suck at it or are good at it. No in between. Make your choice.:P
Krusk 02-22-07, 11:43 AM	Base 15 ranks +6 int from 22 int +2 heroism +3 skill focus +10 competence item You can't succeed with a truename check of 36+d20?:confused: I hope she had 15 ranks her int was not that high she didnt get an 18 to start, i think it was a base 17+3 for levels. +5 Where would she have gotten a heroism bonus? she didnt have it I she did take skill focus she either had the item, or was planning to buy it. Anyway, a class shouldnt depend on an item to work. total. ~15+5+3=~23 or ~15+5+3+10=~33. Even with those it seems she should have been able to pass. She must have just been horribly unoptimised. BUT. dc 40 at level 20 ive got 23 from ranks 3 from skill focus stat mod of 23. for a +6 bonus is a 32 mod. Even without magic items or spells. Which classes shouldnt rely on to be able to function. Im going to have to withdraw my vote that the check dosnt work. She just built her character terribly.
Bob Loblaw 02-22-07, 11:48 AM	And this is partially my point, I shouldn't have to min/max my character to make it playable, to make it massively powerful, yes, but just to make it playable? I really need to know how a less than optimized character is min/maxed. It sounds like the opposite of min/maxed.
Bob Loblaw 02-22-07, 11:54 AM	Anyway, a class shouldnt depend on an item to work...Even without magic items or spells. Which classes shouldnt rely on to be able to function. Why not? Every class needs gear to effective. Besides, if you use more than the PHB/DMG, the number of options available to improve your skill increaes dramatically. If the DM is willing to allow something like the Tome of Magic, why not allow more material as well. With the Truenamer on the CO boards, he managed to get to +102, and he didn't use all the options. While I am not a fan of such uber optimization, I did learn that there were plenty more options available. The player needs to be more creative with some classes than others. This is one that requires more work from the player. Such is the appeal for some.
gelalshawr 02-22-07, 01:39 PM	That is not what the paragraph says at all. The paragraph above it says what happens when speaking personal truename of a creature, mechanically. The paragraph below gives the +4 bonus for effecting yourself with any Truename magic, not just when you are affecting yourself with a Personal Truename effect. If what you say is what was meant, then it would've said "+4 for saying your own personal truename". That may have been a flaw on the authors' part, but so is the DC in the first place. All Truenamers learn their own personal truenames as part of their education. You have an instinctive understanding of your own personal truename and a sense of how it should be pronounced. But it is not automatic, even for you. You gain a +4 circumstance bonus on Truespeak checks to affect yourself with truename magic So... you want to tell me again how that paragraph has nothing to do with saying your personal truename?
gelalshawr 02-22-07, 01:42 PM	Why not? Every class needs gear to effective. Besides, if you use more than the PHB/DMG, the number of options available to improve your skill increaes dramatically. If the DM is willing to allow something like the Tome of Magic, why not allow more material as well. A Paladin doesn't need a holy avenger sword to use his smite evil class ability, it just makes him better at it. A monk can kick the snot out of anyone with no gear at all, and if you use the BoED and VoP rules he's even better at it when he doesn't have any magical gear.
Jerks 02-22-07, 01:59 PM	Just about every D&D class needs magic/mundane items to support them when they level up. Truenamers have all the same requirements as wizards with the added drawback of needing an Amulet of the Silver Tongue. A fighter without a magic sword plummets in effectiveness at any level above 5 because he'll automatically lose 5 to 15 points of damage per attack. Take away a wizard's spell component pouch and all of a sudden he has to scour his list for spells that don't use components. A truenamer isn't completely powerless without the magic stat boosting stuff. Personal truenames of CR+ things gets tough, but at the levels we're discussing he'll still have a good enough score for item and map utterances.
Jerks 02-22-07, 02:05 PM	Oopsie
jameswilliamogle 02-22-07, 02:23 PM	So... you want to tell me again how that paragraph has nothing to do with saying your personal truename?You know what I meant: you have +4 to all Truespeech checks involving yourself, whether they're a personal Truenaming or a non-personal Truenaming check.
OologahQ 02-22-07, 02:30 PM	I think the important distinction to make here is that while it may be true that all characters need gear at higher level to be fully effective, they do not generally need gear to use their innate class abilities at those levels like the truenamer does.
gelalshawr 02-22-07, 02:52 PM	You know what I meant: you have +4 to all Truespeech checks involving yourself, whether they're a personal Truenaming or a non-personal Truenaming check. Yes I do know what you meant, you meant that as long as you don't pay any attention to that other stuff, you get to ignore the rules you don't like. Even the Known Personal Truename class ability states that the Truenamer gets the +4 bonus to say his own personal truename, not using the truename that defines his race and actions. They get the +4 because they have studied how to say their own personal truename, which never changes, but the truename one would use to define their race and actions changes from moment to moment, so how do you study that effectively?
Bob Loblaw 02-22-07, 02:53 PM	A Paladin doesn't need a holy avenger sword to use his smite evil class ability, it just makes him better at it. A monk can kick the snot out of anyone with no gear at all, and if you use the BoED and VoP rules he's even better at it when he doesn't have any magical gear. Your paladin still needs something to hit the bad guy with. I don't think I've given a player a Holy Avenger in over 10 years. It definately isn't necessary. He will need something though. Sorry, but the monk needs gear just like everyone else. There is no class that can survive into the higher levels without any gear. The truenamer doesn't need the amulet either. There are plenty of things he can do to improve his bonuses. Since we are going to bring in BoED, can I bring in UA and use Item Familiar? Now I can have essentially double the ranks, plus all my other bonuses. This means that at level 20, I have 46 + 3 (Skill Focus) + 12 (Int modifier). I haven't even done anything else yet and I have +61. My item familiar can be my winged boots if I so choose.
navar100 02-22-07, 02:54 PM	I think the important distinction to make here is that while it may be true that all characters need gear at higher level to be fully effective, they do not generally need gear to use their innate class abilities at those levels like the truenamer does. Worse for the Truenamer, he needs specific items. He has get an item that enhances his intelligence, and then at a significant plus. He has to have a way to get inherent bonuses to his Intelligence, and then at a significant plus. He has to have a particular magic item. He also has to take Skill Focus [Speak Truename]. Sure, it's a no brainer for him to take that feat like a druid taking Natural Spell, but if for some reason a druid does not take the feat, he's really not so worse off where as for a Truenamer it's a significant difference. In effect, all Truenamers become carbon copies of each other. Any deviation for personal tastes ruins the class.
jameswilliamogle 02-22-07, 03:28 PM	Yes I do know what you meant, you meant that as long as you don't pay any attention to that other stuff, you get to ignore the rules you don't like. Even the Known Personal Truename class ability states that the Truenamer gets the +4 bonus to say his own personal truename, not using the truename that defines his race and actions. They get the +4 because they have studied how to say their own personal truename, which never changes, but the truename one would use to define their race and actions changes from moment to moment, so how do you study that effectively?Kind of over the top: I could just as easily say you were ignoring that last sentance, limiting "Truename Magic" to just mean Personal Truenames, which it doesn't say. I've only had 1 experience playing a Truenamer and the DM was pretty familiar w/ the system. He agreed with me on this point. It looks like we have to agree to disagree. The rest of that paragraph looks like fluff to me: no mechanical descriptions of Personal Truenaming, then a flat "Truenamers have a +4 bonus to affect themselves with Truename magic". You see it differently; no big deal. Same thing w/ the Truenamer needing equipment for their class functions: I don't think its a big deal, and you do. Again, no big deal. We just have 2 different viewpoints on it. Anyways, I'm done posting in this thread. I can't think of anything else I could post that hasn't been said already.
gelalshawr 02-22-07, 03:39 PM	Kind of over the top: I could just as easily say you were ignoring that last sentance, limiting "Truename Magic" to just mean Personal Truenames, which it doesn't say. I've only had 1 experience playing a Truenamer and the DM was pretty familiar w/ the system. He agreed with me on this point. It looks like we have to agree to disagree. The rest of that paragraph looks like fluff to me: no mechanical descriptions of Personal Truenaming, then a flat "Truenamers have a +4 bonus to affect themselves with Truename magic". You see it differently; no big deal. Same thing w/ the Truenamer needing equipment for their class functions: I don't think its a big deal, and you do. Again, no big deal. We just have 2 different viewpoints on it. Anyways, I'm done posting in this thread. I can't think of anything else I could post that hasn't been said already. Just one last thing, I can understand where you would see it that way, it's a simple enough sentence, but whereas you see it as they just know how to use stuff on themselves better, I see it as, the person who wrote the sentence didn't consider the idea that anyone would choose NOT to use their own personal truename to affect themselves. and in the end you are correct, we don't have to agree on this point, that's the beauty of discussion.
Krusk 02-22-07, 03:46 PM	No class aside from the wizard and archivist requires an item to play. And theirs is simply an item to store spells on, and can be -via dmg2- not a spellbook, but runes drawn on a body, or braids in the hair. Every other class is playable, to some degree without them. grappleing fighter. Monk. Unarmed palidin. Sorcerer. Ranger who two weapon unarmed fighting. Singing Bard. Druid. All of these classes benifit from items, but they can be played without them. A truenamer cannoy function without magic items. This is not good for any class. This leads to it being unable to play in many campaigns/quests for dms. Dms now have to plan around this one character in order to make a quest the characters will go on. Not the entire party. If the dm wants a shipwrecked scenario, too bad. Because a truenamer requires the use of an item. ANd that item had better be found on the island. Theives in the night steal some pc gear, they need to get it back? too bad, the thieves have to leave the truespeak item. To me that means a class is not designed correctly.
Bob Loblaw 02-22-07, 06:33 PM	No class aside from the wizard and archivist requires an item to play. And theirs is simply an item to store spells on, and can be -via dmg2- not a spellbook, but runes drawn on a body, or braids in the hair. Every other class is playable, to some degree without them. grappleing fighter. Monk. Unarmed palidin. Sorcerer. Ranger who two weapon unarmed fighting. Singing Bard. Druid. All of these classes benifit from items, but they can be played without them. How are these characters going to hit? A CR 7 black dragon has an AC of 22. This means that a 15th level monk has only a 40% chance to hit (I am assuming the dragon is using his darkness ability) and will be dealing 7 points of damage. This isn't going to be enough. Even if we give the monk an 18 strength, he will have only a 52% chance to hit. AC of 22 isn't all that great and darkness is a low level spell. This creature doesn't have to be a dragon. Change the monk to paladin (18 Str and 18 Cha) with smite. Now the paladin will have a 76% chance to hit (he is unarmed as you made him) and will deal 10 points of damage. He can do this 4 times. This dragon has 110 hit points. Now what's the paladin going to do? I can do this for every class. The game assumes that you have magic items. Taking that away changes everything. A truenamer cannoy function without magic items. This is not good for any class. This leads to it being unable to play in many campaigns/quests for dms. Dms now have to plan around this one character in order to make a quest the characters will go on. Not the entire party. If the dm wants a shipwrecked scenario, too bad. Because a truenamer requires the use of an item. ANd that item had better be found on the island. Theives in the night steal some pc gear, they need to get it back? too bad, the thieves have to leave the truespeak item. The DM shouldn't have to make any adjustments to the adventure. The player should learn to adapt to the adventure. While the DM should keep in mind the capabilities of the characters, he should not tailor encounters to suit one character. That would be poor DMing. Note that the Truenamer would not be completely useless without his gear. He just would have to be creative as well. He does have a base attack equal to a cleric. He can use some of his utterances against other things. He doesn't have to use the ones that target the enemy. Also, if the DM is going to be taking away everyone's gear, then he needs to account for the fact that the party will not be fighting very well. Clerics will be limited in their spell choices (no holy symbol to use as a divine focus). The other casters will not have their material components. Rogues will probably have the best chance in this scenario with all their skill points and sneak attack damage. The truenamer should have maximum ranks in Truespeak (level +3), Skill Focus (+3), and his Intelligence modifier (+3 or more). This means that the skill bonus should be (he can add +4 to affect himself): Level DC Check % Success To affect any party member Universal Aptitude Preternatual Clarity 1 17 10 65.00% 85.00% 110.00% 110.00% 2 19 11 60.00% 80.00% 105.00% 105.00% 3 21 12 55.00% 75.00% 100.00% 100.00% 4 23 13 50.00% 70.00% 95.00% 95.00% 5 25 14 45.00% 65.00% 90.00% 90.00% 6 27 15 40.00% 60.00% 85.00% 85.00% 7 29 16 35.00% 55.00% 80.00% 80.00% 8 31 18 35.00% 55.00% 80.00% 80.00% 9 33 19 30.00% 50.00% 75.00% 75.00% 10 35 20 25.00% 45.00% 70.00% 95.00% 11 37 21 20.00% 40.00% 65.00% 90.00% 12 39 22 15.00% 35.00% 60.00% 85.00% 13 41 23 10.00% 30.00% 55.00% 80.00% 14 43 24 5.00% 25.00% 50.00% 75.00% 15 45 25 0.00% 20.00% 45.00% 70.00% 16 47 27 0.00% 20.00% 45.00% 70.00% 17 49 28 -5.00% 15.00% 40.00% 65.00% 18 51 29 -10.00% 10.00% 35.00% 60.00% 19 53 30 -15.00% 5.00% 30.00% 55.00% 20 55 31 -20.00% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% This is all assuming that I start with a 16 Intelligence. If there is a bard in the party, my chances can improve more. If there is a cleric or wizard with the right spells prepared, these can improve even more. No magic items were harmed in the making of this table.
Krusk 02-22-07, 06:48 PM	How are these characters going to hit? A CR 7 black dragon has an AC of 22. This means that a 15th level monk has only a 40% chance to hit (I am assuming the dragon is using his darkness ability) and will be dealing 7 points of damage. This isn't going to be enough. Even if we give the monk an 18 strength, he will have only a 52% chance to hit. AC of 22 isn't all that great and darkness is a low level spell. This creature doesn't have to be a dragon. I said those were classes that are still able to do something. A 52% chance to his is still over 1/2 your attacks hitting. Pretty good odds. 40% isnt terrible, and an unarmed nonmagical item holding monk would be stupid to try and focus his build on punching. He should focus on a diffrent stratigy. Say tripping grappleing or disarming? A palidin who does the disarm, grapple, and hogtie approach could be very successful. . Change the monk to paladin (18 Str and 18 Cha) with smite. Now the paladin will have a 76% chance to hit (he is unarmed as you made him) and will deal 10 points of damage. He can do this 4 times. This dragon has 110 hit points. Now what's the paladin going to do? I can do this for every class. The game assumes that you have magic items. Taking that away changes everything See above. But i would like to point out any character who built himself to be an unarmed combatant would Be smart to take feats related to this. You seem to be ignoreing them. . The DM shouldn't have to make any adjustments to the adventure. The player should learn to adapt to the adventure. While the DM should keep in mind the capabilities of the characters, he should not tailor encounters to suit one character. That would be poor DMing. You are correct. . Also, if the DM is going to be taking away everyone's gear, then he needs to account for the fact that the party will not be fighting very well. Clerics will be limited in their spell choices (no holy symbol to use as a divine focus). The other casters will not have their material components. Rogues will probably have the best chance in this scenario with all their skill points and sneak attack damage. the dm does need to do this. Unfortunatly, a cleric can carve himself a crude holy symbol until a better one can be found. Other casters can have eschew matierials, something i usually recomend even though everyone discourages it. Can save a casters life to have it, but can also be totally useless depending on the dm. Fighters can improvise a greatclub, rangers can find a companion as can druids. Rogues are as you said fine. Monks are also fine. Basically if you cant build a character who cant survive without items your probably doing something wrong.
Jaxgaret 02-22-07, 07:01 PM	I don't understand what the big deal is. Let me spell this out simply: Naked Truenamer > Naked Wizard So are you all really arguing about the Truenamer's dependence on gear? A Wizard has it worse off. Seems like some people here just want to get on a soapbox and rant or try to houserule uber-Truenamers when it's actually pretty easy to optimize them already. And no, a Truenamer need not be mix/maxed to be effective.
Krusk 02-22-07, 07:28 PM	A wizard does not need a spellbook. There are options to playone without listed in the dmg2. A wizard can use whatever it wants to record his spells, not just a book. The listed suggestions go on to list tattoos, and such. a wizard is also gear dependant, but a wizard does have a huge ammount of skill points, meaning they can double as the skill user. A wizard also has feats to gain spell like abilities. And the truenamer really isnt too better off than the wizard. Truenamer may have utterances, but they will be unable to effect the wizard with any of them. The wizard on the other hand has tons of skill points, a familiar, and feats that can be taken to use spells as spell like abilities meaning he can use some of his abilities while the truenamer gets none.
Jerks 02-22-07, 07:52 PM	A wizard does not need a spellbook. There are options to playone without listed in the dmg2. A wizard can use whatever it wants to record his spells, not just a book. The listed suggestions go on to list tattoos, and such. a wizard is also gear dependant, but a wizard does have a huge ammount of skill points, meaning they can double as the skill user. A wizard also has feats to gain spell like abilities. And the truenamer really isnt too better off than the wizard. Truenamer may have utterances, but they will be unable to effect the wizard with any of them. The wizard on the other hand has tons of skill points, a familiar, and feats that can be taken to use spells as spell like abilities meaning he can use some of his abilities while the truenamer gets none. I can appreciate that you are trying to make your point, but a truename will actually have more skill points than a wizard. Wizards only get 2 skill points per level. Because Int is the main stat of both classes this gives Truenamers the edge. The simple fact, as I see it, is that all D&D characters are loot dependent. Some more than others. A naked fighter is pretty pathetic unless he's dedicated feats to fight unarmed...even then he's probably outclassed by the monk. A truenamer might lose the ability to reliably affect high CR opponents if he loses all his gear, but he can still affect items and areas with ease. The wizard's spell book is a HUGE achilles heal. It's so bad in fact that most GMs won't even go there. Stealing a spellbook or otherwise destroying it would cripple a spellcaster far far more than losing a amulet of silvery tongue.
navar100 02-22-07, 08:37 PM	The truenamer should have maximum ranks in Truespeak (level +3), Skill Focus (+3), and his Intelligence modifier (+3 or more). This means that the skill bonus should be (he can add +4 to affect himself): Level DC Check % Success To affect any party member Universal Aptitude Preternatual Clarity 1 17 10 65.00% 85.00% 110.00% 110.00% 2 19 11 60.00% 80.00% 105.00% 105.00% 3 21 12 55.00% 75.00% 100.00% 100.00% 4 23 13 50.00% 70.00% 95.00% 95.00% 5 25 14 45.00% 65.00% 90.00% 90.00% 6 27 15 40.00% 60.00% 85.00% 85.00% 7 29 16 35.00% 55.00% 80.00% 80.00% 8 31 18 35.00% 55.00% 80.00% 80.00% 9 33 19 30.00% 50.00% 75.00% 75.00% 10 35 20 25.00% 45.00% 70.00% 95.00% 11 37 21 20.00% 40.00% 65.00% 90.00% 12 39 22 15.00% 35.00% 60.00% 85.00% 13 41 23 10.00% 30.00% 55.00% 80.00% 14 43 24 5.00% 25.00% 50.00% 75.00% 15 45 25 0.00% 20.00% 45.00% 70.00% 16 47 27 0.00% 20.00% 45.00% 70.00% 17 49 28 -5.00% 15.00% 40.00% 65.00% 18 51 29 -10.00% 10.00% 35.00% 60.00% 19 53 30 -15.00% 5.00% 30.00% 55.00% 20 55 31 -20.00% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% This is all assuming that I start with a 16 Intelligence. If there is a bard in the party, my chances can improve more. If there is a cleric or wizard with the right spells prepared, these can improve even more. No magic items were harmed in the making of this table. Sorry to disagree with you, my fellow pro-fighter. :D Your own table proves the point. As the Truenamer increases in level, his chance of success decreases. He's getting worse at what he does as he gains levels. No other class gets worse at its own game mechanics as it gains levels. Edit: Rereading I see this is more about a naked truenamer doing alright, the table shows the class as a whole getting worse at what it does, which is not aesthetically pleasing in its own right.
Bob Loblaw 02-22-07, 09:14 PM	I said those were classes that are still able to do something. A 52% chance to his is still over 1/2 your attacks hitting. Pretty good odds. 40% isnt terrible, and an unarmed nonmagical item holding monk would be stupid to try and focus his build on punching. He should focus on a diffrent stratigy. Say tripping grappleing or disarming? A palidin who does the disarm, grapple, and hogtie approach could be very successful... Basically if you cant build a character who cant survive without items your probably doing something wrong. So you completely ignored my analysis? The truenamer will have a better than 100% change of success in the scenario I proposed. He can still adjust with metautterance feats. The truenamer is not dependent upon his items. How many feats is your paladin going to spend on improving his unarmed attack? He doesn't have that many to begin with. Tripping, grappling, disarming are all less effective as the creatures gain sizes. The truenamer's abilities are independent of external issues such as size. Note that the truenamer should also be buffing his party as well. Since he is more like a bard than wizard, his utterances are great for this. You haven't shown me that the truenamer is dependent upon his items any more than anyone else.
Bob Loblaw 02-22-07, 09:29 PM	Sorry to disagree with you, my fellow pro-fighter. :D Your own table proves the point. As the Truenamer increases in level, his chance of success decreases. He's getting worse at what he does as he gains levels. No other class gets worse at its own game mechanics as it gains levels. Edit: Rereading I see this is more about a naked truenamer doing alright, the table shows the class as a whole getting worse at what it does, which is not aesthetically pleasing in its own right. Two points, first this does not include anything that other characters would have such as stat enhancing items. Every character seems to acquire one at some point. Second, he would be better off than the monk or paladin as someone was try to agrue against. Note that he can use abilities that grant bonuses to hit, armor class, fast healing, movement enhancing abilities, direct damage, all with only his first level utterances. With his 3/4 base attack bonus, he can make himself as good as the fighter would be without either one having gear. At 10th level, the truenamer has a base attack of +7. He can use Knight's Puissance to grant +2 to hit for 5 rounds (with up to a 95% chance of success). He can then use Strike of Might (again, a 95% chance of success) for +10 damage. He is only one less attack bonus behind the fighter at this point. This isn't really all that bad for someone without any gear. Extend them both so they last 10 rounds, for a 90% chance of success each. I would take those odds. Don't get me wrong, I am not impressed with the truenamer. I keep wanting to play one, but I am just so bored making the character. I want more options. More utterances. More feats. More magic items. Anything to make it more appealing. He is a great support character, and I don't enjoy playing the sidekick.
Jaxgaret 02-22-07, 10:46 PM	I'm guessing I won't be seeing you play a Bard any time soon either, eh Bob Loblaw? :)
Bob Loblaw 02-22-07, 11:57 PM	I'm guessing I won't be seeing you play a Bard any time soon either, eh Bob Loblaw? :) Not likely. However I am thinking about convincing my group to play only support characters to see how things go. If each of these characters can improve a party of 4-5 with ease, why not see what a group of 4-5 can do for each other. I have a feeling that it will be very interesing.
Krusk 02-23-07, 12:17 AM	How many feats is your paladin going to spend on improving his unarmed attack? He doesn't have that many to begin with. Tripping, grappling, disarming are all less effective as the creatures gain sizes. The truenamer's abilities are independent of external issues such as size. My palidin devoted to unarmed combat? well he is going to be spending all of his feats on unarmed combat. That way he is good at it. Note that the truenamer should also be buffing his party as well. Since he is more like a bard than wizard, his utterances are great for this. You haven't shown me that the truenamer is dependent upon his items any more than anyone else. Im not going to show you, youve got it in your head your right. I did conceed the class works as long as it has gear, but the idea that a class cannot use its abilities without magic items makes no sense. Im not saying a truenamer is more reliant on his items than other classes-even though it is-. My point is that every other class has the option to be played without equipment, while a truenamer is required to have a standard set of equipment. I could build an unarmed fighter, a whip wielding fighter, a two weapon fighter, a two handed fighter, a high dex rapier fighter, ect ect. With a truenamer i can build whatever class combo i want as well, As long as i am willing to include magic items X. That should never happen. My fighter in the above examples does indeed have weapons, but he can vary his items to the individuals tastes. All truenamers have the same item. Now that i think about it, with all the truenamers walking around looking for said item, they must be really rare. And those evil truenamers are probably destroying the rest, to keep others from gaining power. Either that or this item is so prevalent it is like dirt.
runestar 02-23-07, 12:46 AM	Im not going to show you, youve got it in your head your right. I did conceed the class works as long as it has gear, but the idea that a class cannot use its abilities without magic items makes no sense. And the problem is that the current rules for truenaming means that you cannot have it both ways without giving it a major overhaul and modeling it after existing spellcasting rules, which was clearly what the game designers wanted to shy away from, with the intention of giving the players something novel. The way truenaming is structured now, you either make it balanced without gear, and consequently overpowered with appropriate eq, or make it weak without gear, such that it is balanced with the correct items. You can't have it both ways. I know what the heck you are trying to say. I am also saying that it is not feasible. The designers have made their choice - live with it.:)
gelalshawr 02-23-07, 02:14 AM	So you completely ignored my analysis? The truenamer will have a better than 100% change of success in the scenario I proposed. He can still adjust with metautterance feats. The truenamer is not dependent upon his items. Note that the truenamer should also be buffing his party as well. Since he is more like a bard than wizard, his utterances are great for this. You haven't shown me that the truenamer is dependent upon his items any more than anyone else. big problem, more likely than not, your teammates will be equal level to you, so, how do you propose to buff them, or yourself for that matter, without the aid of magic items?
Bob Loblaw 02-24-07, 02:21 AM	My palidin devoted to unarmed combat? well he is going to be spending all of his feats on unarmed combat. That way he is good at it. I'm sorry, but there really aren't that many feats that will make it worth it. I know there are some things you can do, but unarmed combat for non-monks is really not feasible. Im not going to show you, youve got it in your head your right. I did conceed the class works as long as it has gear, but the idea that a class cannot use its abilities without magic items makes no sense. Im not saying a truenamer is more reliant on his items than other classes-even though it is-. My point is that every other class has the option to be played without equipment, while a truenamer is required to have a standard set of equipment. I showed you I could play one rather far. I just have to know what I'm doing. Besides, there are other classes that aren't all that great without their gear either (cleric with no holy symbol just got a lot weaker). I could build an unarmed fighter, a whip wielding fighter, a two weapon fighter, a two handed fighter, a high dex rapier fighter, ect ect. With a truenamer i can build whatever class combo i want as well, As long as i am willing to include magic items X. That should never happen. My fighter in the above examples does indeed have weapons, but he can vary his items to the individuals tastes. All truenamers have the same item. Why does he need that item? I can easily get +10 to skills without every touching that item. While it would certainly help, it really isn't necessary. I think you can find +10 as well if you look hard enough. If I Use Magic Device, I can cast Improvisation from a wand granting me +10. See, I don't need that amulet. I have other sources as well. Headband of Intellect gives me up to +3. Ioun stone, another +1. Luck Stone, there's +1. That's +5 already without leaving the SRD. big problem, more likely than not, your teammates will be equal level to you, so, how do you propose to buff them, or yourself for that matter, without the aid of magic items? Read over my table again. I can do it if I do everything in the right order. I may need to spend 2 to 3 rounds buffing the party. The first round should be to buff myself. I will then be able to enhance the party from there. I should be enhancing the party as much as I can since I will be the only one who can do any type of casting in your scenario. With no equipment, most casters are in trouble. The monk may be the only one with a decent enough chance to help me help everyone else. While equipment is wonderful, it really isn't necessary for everything I may need to do. Besides, any DM who is constantly putting his players into situations where they don't have their gear should really put his dice away. Once in a while is fine, but if it's a constant issue, then he's a poor DM.
ravenshrike 02-24-07, 02:51 AM	So, you get hit by a Mordenkainen's Dysjunction and you instantly become a useless character, and I know you'll say a mage in an anti-magic field is in the same boat, but then, so is a truenamer in an anti-magic field, honestly, the only way for a Truenamer to be a viable class is through min/maxing and having a Monty Haul DM. Most fighters hit with a MD will be pretty much useless at that level as well, unless they're from the ToB. Assuming the opponent is a wyrm black dragon, they need at least sayy, a 10 to hit, assuming no magic items on the dragons part. Unlikely but for the sake of simplicity we assume that's the case. Then he has to beat the dragons DR20 magic, which he can no longer do except on a crit since his magic items are gone. on a crit the max damage he can do is 38 with a greataxe and 20 with a greatsword.
navar100 02-24-07, 04:50 AM	Not likely. However I am thinking about convincing my group to play only support characters to see how things go. If each of these characters can improve a party of 4-5 with ease, why not see what a group of 4-5 can do for each other. I have a feeling that it will be very interesing. Interesting. Do you include cleric as a support class? What do you consider a support class?
Bob Loblaw 02-24-07, 11:05 AM	Interesting. Do you include cleric as a support class? What do you consider a support class? That's something that's a little harder to define. I was thinking of Bard, Savant (Dragon Compendium), Truenamer, Factotum, Marshal, Dragon Shaman, and Healer. I'm sure that there are others. Basically any class who's features are meant to support other characters. Clerics, wizards, druids, etc. wouldn't qualify unless specifically designed as a support character. Personally, I wouldn't want any of them in that party just because it would detract from the experiment.
EvilIdiot 02-24-07, 01:49 PM	Well, I've done some math, and here is what I've got: Level/CR No Items +6 int item +6 int item & Amulet Wiz Wiz with +6 int 1 0,8 0,95 1 0,75 0,9 2 0,75 0,9 1 0,7 0,85 3 0,7 0,85 1 0,75 0,9 4 0,65 0,8 1 0,7 0,85 5 0,6 0,75 1 0,75 0,9 6 0,55 0,7 1 0,7 0,85 7 0,5 0,65 1 0,75 0,9 8 0,45 0,6 1 0,7 0,85 9 0,4 0,55 1 0,75 0,9 10 0,35 0,5 1 0,7 0,85 11 0,3 0,45 0,95 0,75 0,9 12 0,25 0,4 0,9 0,7 0,85 13 0,2 0,35 0,85 0,75 0,9 14 0,15 0,3 0,8 0,7 0,85 15 0,1 0,25 0,75 0,75 0,9 16 0,05 0,2 0,7 0,7 0,85 17 0 0,15 0,65 0,75 0,9 18 0 0,1 0,6 0,7 0,85 19 0 0,05 0,55 0,7 0,85 20 0 0 0,5 0,65 0,8 decimal numbers represents probability of success Table refers to: - 1 truenamer with 20 int and skillfocus(truespeech) - 1 wizard with 20 int, facing a foe who has the best base save bonus against her spells, and a +0 ability modifier (truespeech doesn't depend on ability scores) Both truenamer and wiz can use a +6 int boosting item Truenamer can use the Amulet of the silver tongue +10 as well calculus of wizard's chance of success was carried out in this way: I could build a wizard with uber spells' DC,and a wizard's foe with uber saves against the same spells. Thus, there's a range of "power", or "effectiveness", with 2 limits: the weakest wiz vs the most protected foe and ,viceversa, the weakest foe against the strongest wizard. Between them, there are lots of possible combos, so, to keep it simple, I decided to compare the base wizard(no help to spells' DC) and the base foe (no help to saves),considering that bonuses to both sides balance each others. Here is my conclusion: As someone said before, the truenamer is likely to be either terribly overpowered or underpowered, there's no middle way. Then, it is mechanically broken: its effectiveness decrease with class progression, though you can add boosting items which hide, but not solve, the problem. How can a character be balanced when lose power while increasing its level? The standard spellcasting sys ,instead, allows the wiz to keep its probability of success mostly constant throughout all the 20 lvs, and, if you add a boosting item, it becomes more powerful, in terms of chance of success, than the truenamer. In addition, it should be considered that utterances aren't usually as effective as spells(*): lots of them don't scale with class level, however they can be cast more frequently with less effort but, in the other hand , at high levels, it's also hard to cast them just once. For the same reason(*) the higher probability of success is more valuable, ,effective, for the wizard than the trunamer. Finally, truenamer may be seen as a "bard-like" class, therefore the comparison above would be wrong. I think this would be true if we consider the role inside an adventuring party, but, in terms of power and, more generally, the possibility of being practically played , the distinction isn't so important.
Krusk 02-24-07, 02:21 PM	I'm sorry, but there really aren't that many feats that will make it worth it. I know there are some things you can do, but unarmed combat for non-monks is really not feasible. Improved unarmed strike, superior unarmed strike, stunning fist theyve got a high wis, deflect arrows, versatile unarmed strike. Thats 5 right off the top of my head. palidins get 8 feats total if they are human, and off the top of my head i found5 feats for it. Now they still get to keep 3 feats for palidin stuff, extra smite ect. I showed you I could play one rather far. I just have to know what I'm doing. Besides, there are other classes that aren't all that great without their gear either (cleric with no holy symbol just got a lot weaker). A cleric can spend 15 min carving a crude one for free. Done. While equipment is wonderful, it really isn't necessary for everything I may need to do. Besides, any DM who is constantly putting his players into situations where they don't have their gear should really put his dice away. Once in a while is fine, but if it's a constant issue, then he's a poor DM. Not constantly, but any class should leave the players the option to not have a standard list of equipment. Every single truenamer will have the exact same list of equipment. That is not a good thing.
Bob Loblaw 02-24-07, 05:28 PM	Improved unarmed strike, superior unarmed strike, stunning fist theyve got a high wis, deflect arrows, versatile unarmed strike. Thats 5 right off the top of my head. palidins get 8 feats total if they are human, and off the top of my head i found5 feats for it. Now they still get to keep 3 feats for palidin stuff, extra smite ect. Where is Superior Unarmed Strike? I have not heard of it before. What does it do? Anyway, 1d3+ Strength isn't really all that great at any level for damage so I'm not convinced the unarmed paladin will be all that useful in combat. A cleric can spend 15 min carving a crude one for free. Done. So he has equipment. Regardless of how he gets it, a holy symbol is equipment. Without the holy symbol most of his spellcasting is limited. Not constantly, but any class should leave the players the option to not have a standard list of equipment. Every single truenamer will have the exact same list of equipment. That is not a good thing. The truenamer is fine then. I have shown several other options besides that single piece of equipment. A little bit of work and you can find plenty more. Just because you ignore the examples doesn't mean they don't exist. Someone already posted the link to the Truenamer Optimization thread. Check it out. There's plenty that can be done.
gelalshawr 02-24-07, 08:22 PM	Read over my table again. I can do it if I do everything in the right order. I may need to spend 2 to 3 rounds buffing the party. The first round should be to buff myself. I will then be able to enhance the party from there. I should be enhancing the party as much as I can since I will be the only one who can do any type of casting in your scenario. With no equipment, most casters are in trouble. The monk may be the only one with a decent enough chance to help me help everyone else. While equipment is wonderful, it really isn't necessary for everything I may need to do. Besides, any DM who is constantly putting his players into situations where they don't have their gear should really put his dice away. Once in a while is fine, but if it's a constant issue, then he's a poor DM. OK, you still don't get it, with your table, at level 20 I CAN'T buff myself, period, I have a less than 0% chance of succeeding on my Truespeak check to affect myself.
Kresalak 02-24-07, 09:02 PM	You know what would be less stupid than the current system? If Truespeak was a level+Int modifier check. Maybe you could take Truespeak Focus for +3. Now not only can it not be abused, by you can have reasonable DCs!
runestar 02-24-07, 10:19 PM	You know what would be less stupid than the current system? If Truespeak was a level+Int modifier check. Maybe you could take Truespeak Focus for +3. Now not only can it not be abused, by you can have reasonable DCs! What do you mean by lv check? HD? ECL?:confused: And I wouldn't speak too soon about something not being abusable without first getting it veto'ed by the CO boards...:P
Krusk 02-25-07, 02:07 AM	Where is Superior Unarmed Strike? I have not heard of it before. What does it do? Anyway, 1d3+ Strength isn't really all that great at any level for damage so I'm not convinced the unarmed paladin will be all that useful in combat. Superior unarmed strike lets you count as a monk of 4 levels higher than in reality for unarmed strike damage. No more 1d3+str, now you get 1d8. Now grab the Asetic knight feat. Your monk and palidin levels stack. Prereq-improved unarmed strike and smite evil. Spend another feat and you are doing unarmed damage equal to a monk 4 levels higher than you are. So he has equipment. Regardless of how he gets it, a holy symbol is equipment. Without the holy symbol most of his spellcasting is limited. your right, without that free thing he found on the ground he is sevearly limited. The truenamer is fine then. I have shown several other options besides that single piece of equipment. A little bit of work and you can find plenty more. Just because you ignore the examples doesn't mean they don't exist. Someone already posted the link to the Truenamer Optimization thread. Check it out. There's plenty that can be done. I don't find you saying that you already proved to me that it is effective, to be an effective arguement.
Palazzo 02-25-07, 02:53 AM	1st off I think krusk isn't reading the feat correctly... it only gives you 4 effective monk levels if you're a monk... otherwise it's a static increase. Also he's saying the paladin in the previous examples is a monk/paladin multiclass, very powerful but a bit of a glass cannon for me... Now, what I want to do is look at the "true namers must have equipment" from the other points of few as "all other classes need more equipment" All charcters must have magical weapons to affect most monsters after a certain level and all weapons should also include ghost touch(best weapon enchant ever) All weapons should have a special material to cut thru most additional DR's around usually adamantine. All characters must have the best armor they can use, including spells, psionic powers, bracers, and sheilds. All characters MUST have statboosting items to make their prime stats rediculusly high, includes books and level adjustments. All characters Must have extra-dimensional storage inorder to cart away the phat loot of their slain fully clothed and equipped enemys. All characters must have rations or they will die of starvation. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Stupidness aside... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Equipment exists for a reason. All characters are assumed to have at least theamount of equipment listed in GPV in the DMG. Usually players will have MUCH more if they were played from lower levels. Any build that doesn't have equipment should be disregarded as retarded. There is no good reason not to be as well equiped as you can to deal with whatever the DM throws at you. And if your DM doesn't know enough to improvise and alter existing magical items so not everything is identical to everything else magic item wise you should probably find a better DM. You'd be suprised how refreshing a simple change of description makes the game better. The waterskin of endless water is still the same item, with just a different identity.
navar100 02-25-07, 03:27 AM	That's something that's a little harder to define. I was thinking of Bard, Savant (Dragon Compendium), Truenamer, Factotum, Marshal, Dragon Shaman, and Healer. I'm sure that there are others. Basically any class who's features are meant to support other characters. Clerics, wizards, druids, etc. wouldn't qualify unless specifically designed as a support character. Personally, I wouldn't want any of them in that party just because it would detract from the experiment. Ok. Hypothetically speaking I'm in that game, I'd want to play the Dragon Shaman. I like that class, and it's my favorite of your list. (I do not know of Savant or Factotum.) I'd try the Truenamer if I couldn't be the Dragon Shaman.
Bob Loblaw 02-25-07, 03:31 AM	OK, you still don't get it, with your table, at level 20 I CAN'T buff myself, period, I have a less than 0% chance of succeeding on my Truespeak check to affect myself. Until this point, we were not discussing any specific level. I mentioned lower levels than 20. I also know that at 20th level he needs something. Personally, I would have made it so that the Truenamer can affect himself with no need for a check. This is one of the very reasons why I won't play a Truenamer. I think this is rather silly. Superior unarmed strike lets you count as a monk of 4 levels higher than in reality for unarmed strike damage. No more 1d3+str, now you get 1d8. Now grab the Asetic knight feat. Your monk and palidin levels stack. Prereq-improved unarmed strike and smite evil. Spend another feat and you are doing unarmed damage equal to a monk 4 levels higher than you are. Where is this from? I have not seen it and I would like to add it to my list of feats. your right, without that free thing he found on the ground he is sevearly limited. Free or not, it is still equipment. We were discussing no equipment. I don't find you saying that you already proved to me that it is effective, to be an effective arguement. Well then I will have to assume that you did not read the first couple of posts in that thread. With the ability to gain more than +100 to the skill check from a very wide variety of sources I think that the Truenamer can meet his checks just fine. Note that none of this means that I find the class interesting. Personally, I feel it lacks so much. None of his abilities actually feel like he's modifying the fabric of the universe. It just feels like cheap knock-offs of spells being cast more regularly in the most complex manner possible.
EvilIdiot 02-25-07, 09:02 AM	Until this point, we were not discussing any specific level. I mentioned lower levels than 20. I also know that at 20th level he needs something. But at 17 lv, and next ones, it is still hard. Anyway, your primary function, casting utterances, becomes harder and harder while advancing,isn't it? Personally, I would have made it so that the Truenamer can affect himself with no need for a check. This is one of the very reasons why I won't play a Truenamer. I think this is rather silly. This would allow him to cast buff himself at will... As regards equipment and other classes: 1) a +100 , or lower, skill modifier is aberrant: to listen checks would allow you to sense your enemy far away, without any magical mean, to jump checks would allow to fly like Superman, or run like Hulk... 2)When other classes advance a level, they improve their skills and, above all, they become better at doing their own job: casters cast spells, fighters gets bab and feats(despite that they're an underpowered class), rouges gets SA dices... they get magic equipment in order to make themselves more effective against foes, who were meant to face a good equipped party, but characters' class abilities get always better, whether their foes are affected by them or not. Truenamers have ,instead,a magic system which rely on the actual difficulty level of foes they're going to face. Their effectiveness is their class ability. Moreover, classes have their own strengths and weak points. Against a golem, a blaster-type-caster becomes the weak one, because of the spell immunity, while fighters are the strong ones: they can attack whenever they want, and, with proper equipment, they're going to be more effective than any other spell. buff-type-caster are essential ,and cover an important role, as well. Truenamer, instead, against the same golem, with high cr-hd, are always the weakest, since they can't do anything they're meant to. At 20 lv, a rouge would be able to SA a powerful villain with a silver fork, dealing lots of d6 of damage, because he's a 20 lv rouge. At 20 lv a truenamer isn't able to do anything to the same villain, because he's a 20 lv trunamer.
Jaxgaret 02-25-07, 10:32 AM	Where is this [Superior Unarmed Strike] from? I have not seen it and I would like to add it to my list of feats. Superior Unarmed Strike is from the Tome of Battle.
Bob Loblaw 02-25-07, 12:41 PM	But at 17 lv, and next ones, it is still hard. Anyway, your primary function, casting utterances, becomes harder and harder while advancing,isn't it? Not if he focuses on improving his Truespeak skill. The problem actually comes in when he focuses on it so much he no longer has any chance of failure. This would allow him to cast buff himself at will... Right. That was what I was thinking too. Since his buffs aren't any more potent than other class's buffs, this really shouldn't be a problem. As regards equipment and other classes: 1) a +100 , or lower, skill modifier is aberrant: to listen checks would allow you to sense your enemy far away, without any magical mean, to jump checks would allow to fly like Superman, or run like Hulk... I never said it was a good mechanic. Personally, I think the whole class should be reworked from the ground up. The skill-based casting should be forgotten all about and a better mechanic brought in. 2)When other classes advance a level, they improve their skills and, above all, they become better at doing their own job: casters cast spells, fighters gets bab and feats(despite that they're an underpowered class), rouges gets SA dices... they get magic equipment in order to make themselves more effective against foes, who were meant to face a good equipped party, but characters' class abilities get always better, whether their foes are affected by them or not. By improving my Truespeak skill, I am improving my class. With abilities like Speak Unto the Masses, if I have +102 to my skill check, I can affect 25 CR 20 creatures without having to even roll the dice. I can Quicken Enlarge Utter Deny Pasage (DC 60), then Extend Greater Word of Nurturing I can hold as many CR 20 creatures that fit into a 40'-radius spread (5000 square feet of space) and then deal 40d6 damage with no save to up to 22 CR 20 creatures. Note this will take me 4 rounds, but it doesn't matter since they cannot leave the area. Not bad at all. I still have 6 more rounds to do it again. Truenamers have ,instead,a magic system which rely on the actual difficulty level of foes they're going to face. Their effectiveness is their class ability. Casters also have this, just not as obvious. They often times must deal with Spell Resistance. The difference is that the casters improvement is automatic while the Truenamer must work for it. Moreover, classes have their own strengths and weak points. Against a golem, a blaster-type-caster becomes the weak one, because of the spell immunity, while fighters are the strong ones: they can attack whenever they want, and, with proper equipment, they're going to be more effective than any other spell. buff-type-caster are essential ,and cover an important role, as well. Truenamer, instead, against the same golem, with high cr-hd, are always the weakest, since they can't do anything they're meant to. Why not? What if I instead can gate in somthing to deal with my problem? High level casters can do this, so why not the high level Truenamer? At 20 lv, a rouge would be able to SA a powerful villain with a silver fork, dealing lots of d6 of damage, because he's a 20 lv rouge. At 20 lv a truenamer isn't able to do anything to the same villain, because he's a 20 lv trunamer. Of course, that is assuming the creature isn't immune to sneak attacks and the rogue can hit the villian. He may only get 1 or 2 good shots in each round, and even then, against the golem you put forth earlier, your rogue is not going to fare well. Note that I am not saying the truenamer is all that it's cracked up to be. Personally, I find the class rather 1 dimensional. He has only a few tricks that are worth using. Doing the same thing over and over is what I call boring. While I would have a few options, it is just that, a few. Not a fun class for me to play.
Krusk 02-25-07, 02:33 PM	1st off I think krusk isn't reading the feat correctly... it only gives you 4 effective monk levels if you're a monk... otherwise it's a static increase. Also he's saying the paladin in the previous examples is a monk/paladin multiclass, very powerful but a bit of a glass cannon for me... I wasnt suggesting a multi class. In reading ascetic knight you would think you have to be a monk/palidin. But in reality as long as you meet the prereqs "improved unarmed strike, and Smite evil" you can take the feat. Now your palidin has gained the unarmed strike progression of a monk. For me reading superior unarmed strike wrong. im opening my book now. It says nothing about being a monk in the requirements. i did read it wrong, it is a static increase, if you are not dealing unarmed damage as a monk. But it also says if you are a monk, you deal damage as a monk 4 levels higher. Meaning our palidin is still dealing damage equal to a monk 4 levels higher than he was. Because he is treated as a monk as far as unarmed damage goes.
Bob Loblaw 02-25-07, 08:39 PM	I read the feat. It's nice. I can definately see it's usefulness. With feats like this, it makes non-monk unarmed combatants much more feasible. I still don't think it's the best choice for a paladin, but it is a viable option. Maybe combined with other feats such as Vow of Poverty, it could make for a very interesting Paladin.
Krusk 02-25-07, 11:59 PM	its definatly not the best choice for a palidin, but it can be done and isnt terrible. With VOP it could make a very cool palidin.
kelb_panthera 02-26-07, 04:34 AM	For the record, You'd have to be one of the dumbest wizards alive to not have an extra spell book tucked away somewhere safe at home while you're out adventuring, and a typical spell book only holds a hundred pages of spells. If you haven't filled up at least a half a dozen by 20'th level, then what on earth have you been spending gold on? Sorry if I'm off topic, but I felt this needed to be said by someone.
Bob Loblaw 02-26-07, 10:09 AM	For the record, You'd have to be one of the dumbest wizards alive to not have an extra spell book tucked away somewhere safe at home while you're out adventuring, and a typical spell book only holds a hundred pages of spells. If you haven't filled up at least a half a dozen by 20'th level, then what on earth have you been spending gold on? Sorry if I'm off topic, but I felt this needed to be said by someone. In the scenario above, I was assuming that you don't have access to your spellbook, no matter where it is. When someone says "no equipment" I assume that means not a single piece of equipment. No wheelbarrow, no holocaust cloak, none of these things listed among our assests.
Egres 02-26-07, 11:41 AM	palidin, palidin, palidin, palidin. Out of curiosity, why do you always spell "paladin" wrong?
EvilIdiot 02-26-07, 11:44 AM	I never said it was a good mechanic. Personally, I think the whole class should be reworked from the ground up. The skill-based casting should be forgotten all about and a better mechanic brought in. Never mind :D, I didn't mean to say so, I just pointed the matter out By improving my Truespeak skill, I am improving my class. With abilities like Speak Unto the Masses, if I have +102 to my skill check, ... We 're probably misunderstanding each other. We, me and other people here, aren't saying that TN is always weak , nor strong. We're saying there's no middle way, there's no straight TN without min/maxing. As you said before, having +100 to a skill is illogical, wrong, we too. Is it possible by RAW? sure. Does it fit for any campaign/character concept? no, it could be said that it rarely do so. Why? because ,among other issues, you need something special:bards, cohorts, selfbuffing... and these ones aren't so easy to roleplay, to justify while you're advancing some levels. And has needing such things got any sense for a character who's able to speak to Universe itself? Asking a bard to motivate myself in order to speak to the Universe? how is a bard related to the Universe? didn't I choose the wrong class? Note that I am not saying the truenamer is all that it's cracked up to be. Personally, I find the class rather 1 dimensional. He has only a few tricks that are worth using. Doing the same thing over and over is what I call boring. While I would have a few options, it is just that, a few. Not a fun class for me to play. Agree. Casters also have this, just not as obvious. They often times must deal with Spell Resistance. The difference is that the casters improvement is automatic while the Truenamer must work for it. SR isn't what the gygaxian system is based on, it's a trick. Some monster do have SR, others not. To overcome SR you don't need overbuffing or a +20 bonus to Spellcraft to have the chance of beating a SR at 20 lv. does SR 36 is "normal" among 20-24 CR villains? I think so. SR 55? No How would you consider having your foes with SR 55? However SR is different from Truesp check: it doesn't apply to all your enemies, nor to all your allies and not to you either. And spells are often more powerful than utterances What kind of work does he have to do? Buffing? Isn't it absurd that class progression doesn't take in account the increase of power of the class itself? Buffing isn't a class feature or must-have. It would be like saying that I can play a fighter with a wizard's BAB. As long as I manage to have a strength score above 22 and a really powerful sword, there's no difference.... Why not? What if I instead can gate in somthing to deal with my problem? High level casters can do this, so why not the high level Truenamer? The problem is that you wouldn't like to be a TN just to use gate, what about all the other utterances, from evolving mind as well? And he should use gate against a golem as well as a 20 lv bard, or fighter, who have lots of weak spot, as any other class, which would be used by any other magic user, without spending the effect of a 9th lv spell. Uh, did you know they changed the CD for lexicon of perfected map? 25 + 5xlv--> gate =45. I ask you this because, otherwise, it would seem easier for a TN casting gate all the day than giving a +2 AC bonus to an ally. Of course, that is assuming the creature isn't immune to sneak attacks and the rogue can hit the villian. Would it be impossible? and even then, against the golem you put forth earlier, your rogue is not going to fare well. the TN would do so against a 20 HD creature, whatever it is, even against a sleeping undressed fighter...
Jaxgaret 02-26-07, 11:44 AM	For the record, You'd have to be one of the dumbest wizards alive to not have an extra spell book tucked away somewhere safe at home while you're out adventuring, and a typical spell book only holds a hundred pages of spells. If you haven't filled up at least a half a dozen by 20'th level, then what on earth have you been spending gold on? Sorry if I'm off topic, but I felt this needed to be said by someone. Right, but the same goes for the Truenamer; he would be well advised to have multiple +Truenaming items tucked away in safe places, just in case. The point was that in the interim, if both are without their most important equipment or any equipment at all, Truenamer > Wizard.
shamurai7 02-26-07, 12:41 PM	well i have used a truenamer as a dm 2 times now, and one player has played one as well....i found the best solution was this....: remove the 2 magical silver tongue items from the back of the book! one gives a +5, and the other a +10 to truespeak skill.....OUTLAW those items completely! scratch them from your book!!!! and to even things out the truespeak dc only increase by 1 per level or CR. this simple fix is easy to use, not complex and eliminates the NEED for the magical item to work your class abilities. it lessens the truespeak dc's by a reasonable percentage while maintaining some degree of challenge. also if you really want to incorporate those silver tongue truespeak amulets for the flavor of the class KEEP THE PRICES THE SAME but make the lesser give a +1 bonus, and the greater a +2 bonus. (but i still suggest removing items completely for balance)
shamurai7 02-26-07, 02:14 PM	if one of you has some spare time maybe you could make a nice chart of the percentages with my given fix above. i really think it is a *perfect fix!! and with the truenamers +4 he should have about 95 to 100% success rate on himself with skill focus feat (an obvious feat) by maxing out your skill and taking that feat with the average intelligence bonus for a truenamer for whatever level he will need to roll at least a 4 or 5! that is an average of 25% chance of failure without other erotic enhancements from other books. this fix lets someone play the class without any other supplements like they should be able to. it even makes the class possible without spending a feat on skill focus.
Krusk 02-26-07, 03:32 PM	Out of curiosity, why do you always spell "paladin" wrong? because im a terrible speller and didn't have a book open to check. Most people were able to understand my intent. Heck even you understood enough to catch that i was misspelling instead of using a diffrent word. Basically it wasn't important enough for me to look it up i went with what sounded close enough to get my point across. And it turns out i was right.
EvilIdiot 02-27-07, 04:36 AM	@shamurai7: here is what I've got You mean DC=15+HD right? I used a TN with starting with 20 int and skillfocus(truespeech) DC Truespeech CR/LV No Item +6 int item 16 1 0,85 1 17 2 0,85 1 18 3 0,85 1 19 4 0,85 1 20 5 0,85 1 21 6 0,85 1 22 7 0,85 1 23 8 0,85 1 24 9 0,85 1 25 10 0,85 1 26 11 0,85 1 27 12 0,85 1 28 13 0,85 1 29 14 0,85 1 30 15 0,85 1 31 16 0,85 1 32 17 0,85 1 33 18 0,85 1 34 19 0,85 1 35 20 0,85 1 Well, utterances aren't that powerful, however, if I'm not wrong, it seems a bit too powered.... And if you add the utterance lv? Considering the max utterance level, 4 I think,I get this: (if it is 5, just add -0,05 to probabilities) DC Truespeech lv/cr NoItems +6 int 20 1 0,65 0,8 21 2 0,65 0,8 22 3 0,65 0,8 23 4 0,65 0,8 24 5 0,65 0,8 25 6 0,65 0,8 26 7 0,65 0,8 27 8 0,65 0,8 28 9 0,65 0,8 29 10 0,65 0,8 30 11 0,65 0,8 31 12 0,65 0,8 32 13 0,65 0,8 33 14 0,65 0,8 34 15 0,65 0,8 35 16 0,65 0,8 36 17 0,65 0,8 37 18 0,65 0,8 38 19 0,65 0,8 39 20 0,65 0,8 ... Hmm...isn't there the author of the class? When we had some problem with Shadowcasters, Ari (Mouseferatu) wrote here some posts, answering us and giving some changes to the class too...
shamurai7 02-27-07, 08:32 PM	evil thanks for the table that is about what i expected.... it stayz the roughly the same probability throughout as long as you keep feeding skill points. i think that is a well balanced house rule fix. keeping up requires you spending the skill points. now all anyone would have to do if they want to fine-tune this is also sinmple...for harder make dc 20 + cr instead of 15 + cr.. or 13, or 17, or 18. whatever you see as appropriate being the dm. if my easy fix above seemed to make things a bit TOO easy for anyones preferences then just bump that dc to a 20 + instead of the standard 15. so the final skill fix is this: 1. truespeak dc is 20+cr or level (not cr x 2) 2. remove the items from the game that add to true speak skill scratch them from the book!!! (silver tongue amulets) 3. change Word of Genesis spell to DC 40 Option: If you still want to use the silver amulets then keep prices the same, but make lesser a +1 bonus, and greater a +2 bonus. THATS IT!!! i went over most every option and spell and this balances them all out nicely while maintaining some challenge to the skill. it also negates the NEED for those amulets that everyone was complaining about earlier in the thread. thank you to evil idiot for making the charts that allowed me to fine tune that fix. hope everyone likes it!
Solaria 02-07-08, 02:58 PM	It seems to me the solution is to change Truespeak from a skill to a class ability. Then item skill bonuses and the general skill focus feat no longer apply. Then you can reduce the DC from 15 + (2 X HD) to 15 + HD, and add specific focus feats for truenamers only. Simply removing existing items from the game that affect the skill isn't enough, because a character with the Create Wonderous Item feat can still make a skill-boosting item from scratch, for the cost listed in the DMG, of (skill boost * skill boost) * 100 gp. That gives values of: +5 2500 +10 10,000 +20 40,000 +23 52,900 gp.
sigma999 02-08-08, 01:49 AM	Correct. It is broken. Underbroken. Break it more!