Tumble and Combat Expertise [Archive] - Wizards Community

Tumble and Combat Expertise [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Lord_Ao
08-01-07, 03:41 AM I was just wondering, does/can the Tumble skill have any influence on the extra AC granted by the Combat Expertise feat?

I mean, if you have 5 or more ranks in Tumble you get a +3 bonus to AC when you fight defensively, instead of the usual +2 (a 50% increase), and also you get +6 to AC if you take a full defensive action, instead of the usual +4 (again, a 50% increase). So, really shouldn't this mean that you would get 50% extra when you use Combat Expertise? I know it makes the feat much more powerful but to me it just seems to sort of fit.

So, with this idea you could suffer a -5 penalty to attack and gain a +7 bonus to AC (7.5 rounded down).

I am quite sure this is not how it works but I wanted to hear what people thought and maybe even get a proper ,errata supported, ruling on this.

Thank you for reading
jaelis
08-01-07, 09:09 AM By the rules, tumble and CE don't interact. But they do stack, since you can fight defensively and use CE at the same time. So it's not like that benefit of tumble goes away or anything.
Eerongal
08-01-07, 09:17 AM RAW, they interact in no way. If you wish to houserule them to do so, I don't see that big of a problem with it, but do be aware that tumble all ready is quite a powerful skill, it doesn't NEED more added to it to make it good. However, in my opinion, this wont push it out to broken, merely extend the usefulness further.
Weab
08-01-07, 12:24 PM okay, sidenote here...

do combat expertise and fighting defensively actually stack?

as in, my 5th level knight can use full combat expertise and defensive fighting for a +7 ac, at a -9 penalty?
TorgSmackie
08-01-07, 01:14 PM do combat expertise and fighting defensively actually stack?
Yes.
Mojo_Rat
08-01-07, 01:32 PM You have to do a partial defence, you cannot do combat expertese and a full defence. As CE requires that you actually attack.
Weab
08-01-07, 01:34 PM thank you all. this is going to make a big difference in my gameplay :)
Kouk
08-01-07, 02:10 PM Don't forget that there is Improved Combat Expertise in Complete Warrior, which lets you take Combat Expertise above +5, if you are looking for a heavy-defense character.
Lord_Ao
08-01-07, 05:43 PM You have to do a partial defence, you cannot do combat expertese and a full defence. As CE requires that you actually attack.

Even though I'm pretty sure you're right, it doesn't seem to make sense that you would get a higher bonus to AC when you actually attack (using +5 from CE and +2 from fighting defensively), as opposed to the +4 you get by using a full defense. Even just using CE on its own at +5 is better than full defense.

Thank you all for your input
TorgSmackie
08-01-07, 05:45 PM Even though I'm pretty sure you're right, it doesn't seem to make sense that you would get a higher bonus to AC when you actually attack...

Think of it as actively interfering with their attacks instead of just waiting and trying to block. Who knows, you may get lucky and cut them one.
Kouk
08-02-07, 01:00 AM Even though I'm pretty sure you're right, it doesn't seem to make sense that you would get a higher bonus to AC when you actually attack (using +5 from CE and +2 from fighting defensively), as opposed to the +4 you get by using a full defense. Even just using CE on its own at +5 is better than full defense.

Thank you all for your input

At first, yeah it may not seem to make sense, but when you are attacking you are probably throwing them off guard a bit.

The main thing is though, Combat Expertise is a FEAT. Anyone can Fight Defensively or use Total Defense, and utilize them with 5 ranks in Tumble (though it takes some classes until 7th level to get that many ranks) for a boost. Not everyone can even qualify for Combat Expertise, but given enough time people usually can get the ranks of Tumble or just use Fighting Defensively or Total Defense with their default versions.

Combat Expertise allows you to have more control over your attack-to-defense ratio, and gives you the option of combining it with Fighting Defensively for perhaps the best boost to AC around.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lord_Ao 08-01-07, 03:41 AM	I was just wondering, does/can the Tumble skill have any influence on the extra AC granted by the Combat Expertise feat? I mean, if you have 5 or more ranks in Tumble you get a +3 bonus to AC when you fight defensively, instead of the usual +2 (a 50% increase), and also you get +6 to AC if you take a full defensive action, instead of the usual +4 (again, a 50% increase). So, really shouldn't this mean that you would get 50% extra when you use Combat Expertise? I know it makes the feat much more powerful but to me it just seems to sort of fit. So, with this idea you could suffer a -5 penalty to attack and gain a +7 bonus to AC (7.5 rounded down). I am quite sure this is not how it works but I wanted to hear what people thought and maybe even get a proper ,errata supported, ruling on this. Thank you for reading
jaelis 08-01-07, 09:09 AM	By the rules, tumble and CE don't interact. But they do stack, since you can fight defensively and use CE at the same time. So it's not like that benefit of tumble goes away or anything.
Eerongal 08-01-07, 09:17 AM	RAW, they interact in no way. If you wish to houserule them to do so, I don't see that big of a problem with it, but do be aware that tumble all ready is quite a powerful skill, it doesn't NEED more added to it to make it good. However, in my opinion, this wont push it out to broken, merely extend the usefulness further.
Weab 08-01-07, 12:24 PM	okay, sidenote here... do combat expertise and fighting defensively actually stack? as in, my 5th level knight can use full combat expertise and defensive fighting for a +7 ac, at a -9 penalty?
TorgSmackie 08-01-07, 01:14 PM	do combat expertise and fighting defensively actually stack? Yes.
Mojo_Rat 08-01-07, 01:32 PM	You have to do a partial defence, you cannot do combat expertese and a full defence. As CE requires that you actually attack.
Weab 08-01-07, 01:34 PM	thank you all. this is going to make a big difference in my gameplay :)
Kouk 08-01-07, 02:10 PM	Don't forget that there is Improved Combat Expertise in Complete Warrior, which lets you take Combat Expertise above +5, if you are looking for a heavy-defense character.
Lord_Ao 08-01-07, 05:43 PM	You have to do a partial defence, you cannot do combat expertese and a full defence. As CE requires that you actually attack. Even though I'm pretty sure you're right, it doesn't seem to make sense that you would get a higher bonus to AC when you actually attack (using +5 from CE and +2 from fighting defensively), as opposed to the +4 you get by using a full defense. Even just using CE on its own at +5 is better than full defense. Thank you all for your input
TorgSmackie 08-01-07, 05:45 PM	Even though I'm pretty sure you're right, it doesn't seem to make sense that you would get a higher bonus to AC when you actually attack... Think of it as actively interfering with their attacks instead of just waiting and trying to block. Who knows, you may get lucky and cut them one.
Kouk 08-02-07, 01:00 AM	Even though I'm pretty sure you're right, it doesn't seem to make sense that you would get a higher bonus to AC when you actually attack (using +5 from CE and +2 from fighting defensively), as opposed to the +4 you get by using a full defense. Even just using CE on its own at +5 is better than full defense. Thank you all for your input At first, yeah it may not seem to make sense, but when you are attacking you are probably throwing them off guard a bit. The main thing is though, Combat Expertise is a FEAT. Anyone can Fight Defensively or use Total Defense, and utilize them with 5 ranks in Tumble (though it takes some classes until 7th level to get that many ranks) for a boost. Not everyone can even qualify for Combat Expertise, but given enough time people usually can get the ranks of Tumble or just use Fighting Defensively or Total Defense with their default versions. Combat Expertise allows you to have more control over your attack-to-defense ratio, and gives you the option of combining it with Fighting Defensively for perhaps the best boost to AC around.