TWF and Sneak attack. [Archive] - Wizards Community

TWF and Sneak attack. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
gravitywell
02-14-08, 11:04 PM Very long story short:

A rogue with: TWF, IWTF, and GTWF and enough BAB to get 3 attacks does six attacks in a round.

Said rogue wears a ring of inivis, sneaks up behind an unaware opponent, waits til next round and strikes with all 6 attacks. After the first attack, invis is gone, but the opponent is still flat-footed and surprised...

So, does the rogue get 6 sneak attacks vs the flat-footed opponent? (assuming they all hit.)
jaelis
02-14-08, 11:08 PM Yes.

If a rogue gets multiple attacks in a round (such as from a high base attack bonus or the Rapid Shot feat), can she make sneak attacks for all of them?

Yes, but only if each attack meets a requirement to be a sneak attack. For instance, a rogue who flanks an enemy can deliver a sneak attack with every melee attack she makes. A rogue under the effect of a greater invisibility spell treats every attack as a sneak attack, since she remains invisible despite attacking.

If later attacks in a round no longer meet any requirement to be a sneak attack, they aren’t sneak attacks. For example, a rogue under the effect of an invisibility spell would deal sneak attack damage only with her first attack in a round, because she turns visible as soon as she makes the attack.
gravitywell
02-15-08, 12:12 AM Yes.

The last sentence of that FAQ threw me off. Being invis renders the opponent flat-footed? Wouldn't the opponent be flat-footed once invis popped?
jaelis
02-15-08, 12:17 AM The FAQ is assuming that you are only getting SA because you are invisible. In your case, you just used invisibility to set up the surprise.

Though you aren't quite doing it right. Your rogue would get a surprise round, but that would just be a single attack. Then they would roll initiative... the rogue would have to win initiative to get a full attack in while his opponent remains flat-footed.
toucanbuzz
02-15-08, 10:40 AM Note that the condition of "Invisible" allows you to deny an opponent a Dexterity bonus. It does not render a person "flat footed," which is a matter of timing (you have not yet reacted to a combat situation).

The instant that the condition of invisibility fails, you cannot gain the benefits of it. So, the first attack would be a sneak attack. Invisibility simultaneously fails. The opponent is aware of an attacker now and is no longer denied a Dexterity bonus due to Invisiblity (though other conditions, such as flanking, etc. would apply).

Under your situation, the opponent is Flat-Footed anyhow (regardless of invisibility), which means the rogue is going to get sneak attacks anyways since Flat-Footed opponents are denied a Dex bonus. If the opponent is in combat and just plain unaware of the rogue, apply the 1st paragraph's rules.

Finally, as noted by Jaelis, you stated the opponent is "surprised". In that case, a surprise round only lets one get a "standard" action, not a "full round" action, so the rogue would only get ONE attack (albeit a sneak attack). If they beat the opponent on initiative the next round, they can still continue to sneak attack while he is flat footed.
elonin
02-16-08, 08:56 AM My answer to your question depends on the situation. If the rogue sneaks up to the opponent and for what ever reason this is in initiave count and the opponent was unaware (flat footed) of/ to the rogue, then he'd get his full attack with sneak attack dice added. If this was a "suprise" action then only a partial action (move or attack).
jaelis
02-16-08, 09:40 AM My answer to your question depends on the situation. If the rogue sneaks up to the opponent and for what ever reason this is in initiave count and the opponent was unaware (flat footed) of/ to the rogue, then he'd get his full attack with sneak attack dice added. If this was a "suprise" action then only a partial action (move or attack).

If you're in initiative, the target is not flat-footed, he would just be denied his dex because you are invisible. (A creature is either flatfooted or not, it's not relative to the attacker.) But after your first attack, the invisibility would pop and he wouldn't be denied his dex any longer. So only the first attack would get SA damage.
BugHunter
02-16-08, 12:58 PM If you're in initiative, the target is not flat-footed, he would just be denied his dex because you are invisible. (A creature is either flatfooted or not, it's not relative to the attacker.) But after your first attack, the invisibility would pop and he wouldn't be denied his dex any longer. So only the first attack would get SA damage.

He would be flat-footed if it is the first round of combat and has a lower initiative then the rogue.
elonin
02-16-08, 01:01 PM It is also possible to have reacted to the rogues party and still be flat footed to the rogue...
jaelis
02-16-08, 01:57 PM It is also possible to have reacted to the rogues party and still be flat footed to the rogue...
I don't think that's right... you are only flat footed in the period before you've acted at the beginning of combat. Do you have a reference otherwise?
ikki
02-16-08, 02:05 PM heh.. how about having 6 arms, iachu focus... a free round of attacks, before even checking for noticing... AND a skyhigh sneak attack (gloom form). And a (old school) dervish... One strike, two cuts.. and those extra 4 attacks at 0, -5, -10 & -15.

Something along the line of 216 attacks, at 30d6+10d6+weapons (probly all vorpal) each. Critical range of 9-20.
Slice and dice, baby!
Tsuul
02-17-08, 01:59 PM It is also possible to have reacted to the rogues party and still be flat footed to the rogue...
I don't think that's right... you are only flat footed in the period before you've acted at the beginning of combat. Do you have a reference otherwise?If you use the rules from comp to cross open terrain, then your opponent is treated as flat-footed with respect to the rogue.(Comp Adv, pg102)
elonin
02-17-08, 04:08 PM I don't have my source for this, but I emailed the "sage" inbox. <They said that indeed that it is possible for a "flat footed" situation after the first round of a combat.>

Just because a combatant is aware of the party doesn't make them aware of the rogue necessarily. Also, remeber that if your opponent is flat footed that condition lasts until their next action.

One of the things I find amusing is that for the most part most people on the forum who talk about rogues fall into 2 camps. The first one is people who think that "if a rogue gets a sneak attack once per encounter, it's too much"; who decry rogue players thinking we are abusing a class feature. For these folks I want to say that treating sneak attack like that would be like taking feats away from fighters. The second camp is comprised of players who favor rogue who want sneak attacks no matter the circumstances.
jaelis
02-17-08, 05:38 PM My statement was simply based on the definition of flat-footed in the srd,

A character who has not yet acted during a combat is flat-footed, not yet reacting normally to the situation.

If the rules have been extended to mean more than just that, that's fine with me.
zuul88
02-18-08, 12:52 AM My statement was simply based on the definition of flat-footed in the srd,

If the rules have been extended to mean more than just that, that's fine with me.

Your posts make me feel a feeling in a direct inverse of Tempest Stormwinds.
Nathreet
02-18-08, 01:16 AM To clarify what someone already said:
You get one standard action during the surprise round. You can't "wait til next round" until after you make the surprise attack (or at least tap him on the shoulder or do something) and trigger the surprise round. Even when you get to next round, you still need to beat his initiative to catch him flat footed and get the sneak attack.

So you get one free sneak attack regardless. If you beat his initiative you can get 6 sneak attacks on top of that, for a total of 7.

That's the game-speak version. If you want the realistic version, you hit him, he either notices you and either reacts immediately to the hit and is ready for the following attacks (beats your initiative) or he's so shocked that you squeeze in 6 more attacks before he manages to get his bearings straight. Or in other words, you can't stand there waiting to save up for an instantaneous flurry of 6 hits. They happen 1 after the other, and he gets a chance to react to the first hit regardless.
mplindustries
02-18-08, 04:41 AM I don't have my source for this, but I emailed the "sage" inbox. <They said that indeed that it is possible for a "flat footed" situation after the first round of a combat.>

Just because a combatant is aware of the party doesn't make them aware of the rogue necessarily. Also, remeber that if your opponent is flat footed that condition lasts until their next action.

One of the things I find amusing is that for the most part most people on the forum who talk about rogues fall into 2 camps. The first one is people who think that "if a rogue gets a sneak attack once per encounter, it's too much"; who decry rogue players thinking we are abusing a class feature. For these folks I want to say that treating sneak attack like that would be like taking feats away from fighters. The second camp is comprised of players who favor rogue who want sneak attacks no matter the circumstances.

1) The Sage is bad. Don't listen to him. He has no more or less authority than anyone else who reads the rules and then posts his opinion on the internet. And just for reference, this is a general statement. I don't care or have an opinion on being flat-footed after the first round, so I'm not fighting that.

2) I think there is a third camp that I belong to. In my camp, people love rogues, but lament the fact that they are so very crappy because they have to jump through hoops just to use their iconic class feature. I genuinely want the rogue to be able to sneak attack almost all the time, but know they can't according to RAW. I don't think I've ever recommended, played, or GMed for someone playing a rogue or any other character relying on sneak attack after the Complete Warrior errata was released and Invisible Blade's free action feint was nerfed. Just use Swashbuckler and/or Shadow Blade to get Int/Dex to damage and call yourself a rogue. Its a lot less painful.
WebJiCi
02-18-08, 09:08 AM The last sentence of that FAQ threw me off. Being invis renders the opponent flat-footed? Wouldn't the opponent be flat-footed once invis popped?A sneak attack occurs when either a foe is denied of its Dex bonus to AC or when it is flanked. Being invisible via the invisibility spell and also flanking a foe will guarante sneak attack damage on every attack even if you become visible after the first attack, because you are still flanking the foe. "Flat-footed", from what I can understand, is that the foe will immediately be aware of its surroundings, as well as its assaillants, as soon as it gets hit. I assume that the opponent stops being flat-footed between the first and second attack even if it's just a matter of seconds.
Belkar
02-18-08, 09:10 AM And this is why our maligned friend, the ninja (from CAd), continues to be played despite the fact that sudden strike is less versatile than sneak attack.

Because a ninja can turn invisible for a full round - and stay that way - no matter what he does. ;)
Seridan
02-18-08, 09:40 AM Very long story short:

A rogue with: TWF, IWTF, and GTWF and enough BAB to get 3 attacks does six attacks in a round.

Said rogue wears a ring of inivis, sneaks up behind an unaware opponent, waits til next round and strikes with all 6 attacks. After the first attack, invis is gone, but the opponent is still flat-footed and surprised...

So, does the rogue get 6 sneak attacks vs the flat-footed opponent? (assuming they all hit.)

I will ask something similar. Combat starts, I win the initiative and play first. I use Shadow Blink from Tome of Battle to close to my opponent as a swift action and make a full attack on him.

According to this from the SRD:
Each combatant starts out flat-footed. Once a combatant acts, he or she is no longer flat-footed

since he didn't have the chance to act, all my attacks are sneak attacks right?
jaelis
02-18-08, 09:45 AM since he didn't have the chance to act, all my attacks are sneak attacks right?
Yes, definitely. (Unless he has uncanny dodge, of course.)
elonin
02-18-08, 12:48 PM 2) I think there is a third camp that I belong to. In my camp, people love rogues, but lament the fact that they are so very crappy because they have to jump through hoops just to use their iconic class feature. I genuinely want the rogue to be able to sneak attack almost all the time, but know they can't according to RAW. I don't think I've ever recommended, played, or GMed for someone playing a rogue or any other character relying on sneak attack after the Complete Warrior errata was released and Invisible Blade's free action feint was nerfed. Just use Swashbuckler and/or Shadow Blade to get Int/Dex to damage and call yourself a rogue. Its a lot less painful.

I fall into this camp also, but oddly enough I get called a lot of names by dm's who hate sneak attacks. When I check the situation and see a sneak possiblity I do ask my DM what he thinks. He's always free to say no (without resentment)

I do the rogue/ swash builds to get the extra damage. My practical answer is to use my first round to get into a multi flank situation and wait for the warrior types to get into melee. I also tend to equip with a blade w/ blurstrike on it and a mithrialmist chain shirt.
ashmanonar
02-18-08, 01:03 PM Yes, definitely. (Unless he has uncanny dodge, of course.)

Mwahahaha! *barbarian ducks the attacks*
ToastedAmphibian
02-19-08, 12:53 AM I will ask something similar. Combat starts, I win the initiative and play first. I use Shadow Blink from Tome of Battle to close to my opponent as a swift action and make a full attack on him.

According to this from the SRD:
Each combatant starts out flat-footed. Once a combatant acts, he or she is no longer flat-footed

since he didn't have the chance to act, all my attacks are sneak attacks right?

With a high enough jump bonus, sudden leap also works here.

And pounce, if you can get it, will let you charge in the suprise round and make a full attack, all of which would be sneak attacks. So yeah, one MORE reason to take that damn 1 level barb dip.... seriously, its good for EVERYTHING and EVERYONE that isnt A) a Wizard or B) a Sorcerer . And if they like polymorph its kinda good for them also.....

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
gravitywell 02-14-08, 11:04 PM	Very long story short: A rogue with: TWF, IWTF, and GTWF and enough BAB to get 3 attacks does six attacks in a round. Said rogue wears a ring of inivis, sneaks up behind an unaware opponent, waits til next round and strikes with all 6 attacks. After the first attack, invis is gone, but the opponent is still flat-footed and surprised... So, does the rogue get 6 sneak attacks vs the flat-footed opponent? (assuming they all hit.)
jaelis 02-14-08, 11:08 PM	Yes. If a rogue gets multiple attacks in a round (such as from a high base attack bonus or the Rapid Shot feat), can she make sneak attacks for all of them? Yes, but only if each attack meets a requirement to be a sneak attack. For instance, a rogue who flanks an enemy can deliver a sneak attack with every melee attack she makes. A rogue under the effect of a greater invisibility spell treats every attack as a sneak attack, since she remains invisible despite attacking. If later attacks in a round no longer meet any requirement to be a sneak attack, they aren’t sneak attacks. For example, a rogue under the effect of an invisibility spell would deal sneak attack damage only with her first attack in a round, because she turns visible as soon as she makes the attack.
gravitywell 02-15-08, 12:12 AM	Yes. The last sentence of that FAQ threw me off. Being invis renders the opponent flat-footed? Wouldn't the opponent be flat-footed once invis popped?
jaelis 02-15-08, 12:17 AM	The FAQ is assuming that you are only getting SA because you are invisible. In your case, you just used invisibility to set up the surprise. Though you aren't quite doing it right. Your rogue would get a surprise round, but that would just be a single attack. Then they would roll initiative... the rogue would have to win initiative to get a full attack in while his opponent remains flat-footed.
toucanbuzz 02-15-08, 10:40 AM	Note that the condition of "Invisible" allows you to deny an opponent a Dexterity bonus. It does not render a person "flat footed," which is a matter of timing (you have not yet reacted to a combat situation). The instant that the condition of invisibility fails, you cannot gain the benefits of it. So, the first attack would be a sneak attack. Invisibility simultaneously fails. The opponent is aware of an attacker now and is no longer denied a Dexterity bonus due to Invisiblity (though other conditions, such as flanking, etc. would apply). Under your situation, the opponent is Flat-Footed anyhow (regardless of invisibility), which means the rogue is going to get sneak attacks anyways since Flat-Footed opponents are denied a Dex bonus. If the opponent is in combat and just plain unaware of the rogue, apply the 1st paragraph's rules. Finally, as noted by Jaelis, you stated the opponent is "surprised". In that case, a surprise round only lets one get a "standard" action, not a "full round" action, so the rogue would only get ONE attack (albeit a sneak attack). If they beat the opponent on initiative the next round, they can still continue to sneak attack while he is flat footed.
elonin 02-16-08, 08:56 AM	My answer to your question depends on the situation. If the rogue sneaks up to the opponent and for what ever reason this is in initiave count and the opponent was unaware (flat footed) of/ to the rogue, then he'd get his full attack with sneak attack dice added. If this was a "suprise" action then only a partial action (move or attack).
jaelis 02-16-08, 09:40 AM	My answer to your question depends on the situation. If the rogue sneaks up to the opponent and for what ever reason this is in initiave count and the opponent was unaware (flat footed) of/ to the rogue, then he'd get his full attack with sneak attack dice added. If this was a "suprise" action then only a partial action (move or attack). If you're in initiative, the target is not flat-footed, he would just be denied his dex because you are invisible. (A creature is either flatfooted or not, it's not relative to the attacker.) But after your first attack, the invisibility would pop and he wouldn't be denied his dex any longer. So only the first attack would get SA damage.
BugHunter 02-16-08, 12:58 PM	If you're in initiative, the target is not flat-footed, he would just be denied his dex because you are invisible. (A creature is either flatfooted or not, it's not relative to the attacker.) But after your first attack, the invisibility would pop and he wouldn't be denied his dex any longer. So only the first attack would get SA damage. He would be flat-footed if it is the first round of combat and has a lower initiative then the rogue.
elonin 02-16-08, 01:01 PM	It is also possible to have reacted to the rogues party and still be flat footed to the rogue...
jaelis 02-16-08, 01:57 PM	It is also possible to have reacted to the rogues party and still be flat footed to the rogue... I don't think that's right... you are only flat footed in the period before you've acted at the beginning of combat. Do you have a reference otherwise?
ikki 02-16-08, 02:05 PM	heh.. how about having 6 arms, iachu focus... a free round of attacks, before even checking for noticing... AND a skyhigh sneak attack (gloom form). And a (old school) dervish... One strike, two cuts.. and those extra 4 attacks at 0, -5, -10 & -15. Something along the line of 216 attacks, at 30d6+10d6+weapons (probly all vorpal) each. Critical range of 9-20. Slice and dice, baby!
Tsuul 02-17-08, 01:59 PM	It is also possible to have reacted to the rogues party and still be flat footed to the rogue... I don't think that's right... you are only flat footed in the period before you've acted at the beginning of combat. Do you have a reference otherwise?If you use the rules from comp to cross open terrain, then your opponent is treated as flat-footed with respect to the rogue.(Comp Adv, pg102)
elonin 02-17-08, 04:08 PM	I don't have my source for this, but I emailed the "sage" inbox. <They said that indeed that it is possible for a "flat footed" situation after the first round of a combat.> Just because a combatant is aware of the party doesn't make them aware of the rogue necessarily. Also, remeber that if your opponent is flat footed that condition lasts until their next action. One of the things I find amusing is that for the most part most people on the forum who talk about rogues fall into 2 camps. The first one is people who think that "if a rogue gets a sneak attack once per encounter, it's too much"; who decry rogue players thinking we are abusing a class feature. For these folks I want to say that treating sneak attack like that would be like taking feats away from fighters. The second camp is comprised of players who favor rogue who want sneak attacks no matter the circumstances.
jaelis 02-17-08, 05:38 PM	My statement was simply based on the definition of flat-footed in the srd, A character who has not yet acted during a combat is flat-footed, not yet reacting normally to the situation. If the rules have been extended to mean more than just that, that's fine with me.
zuul88 02-18-08, 12:52 AM	My statement was simply based on the definition of flat-footed in the srd, If the rules have been extended to mean more than just that, that's fine with me. Your posts make me feel a feeling in a direct inverse of Tempest Stormwinds.
Nathreet 02-18-08, 01:16 AM	To clarify what someone already said: You get one standard action during the surprise round. You can't "wait til next round" until after you make the surprise attack (or at least tap him on the shoulder or do something) and trigger the surprise round. Even when you get to next round, you still need to beat his initiative to catch him flat footed and get the sneak attack. So you get one free sneak attack regardless. If you beat his initiative you can get 6 sneak attacks on top of that, for a total of 7. That's the game-speak version. If you want the realistic version, you hit him, he either notices you and either reacts immediately to the hit and is ready for the following attacks (beats your initiative) or he's so shocked that you squeeze in 6 more attacks before he manages to get his bearings straight. Or in other words, you can't stand there waiting to save up for an instantaneous flurry of 6 hits. They happen 1 after the other, and he gets a chance to react to the first hit regardless.
mplindustries 02-18-08, 04:41 AM	I don't have my source for this, but I emailed the "sage" inbox. <They said that indeed that it is possible for a "flat footed" situation after the first round of a combat.> Just because a combatant is aware of the party doesn't make them aware of the rogue necessarily. Also, remeber that if your opponent is flat footed that condition lasts until their next action. One of the things I find amusing is that for the most part most people on the forum who talk about rogues fall into 2 camps. The first one is people who think that "if a rogue gets a sneak attack once per encounter, it's too much"; who decry rogue players thinking we are abusing a class feature. For these folks I want to say that treating sneak attack like that would be like taking feats away from fighters. The second camp is comprised of players who favor rogue who want sneak attacks no matter the circumstances. 1) The Sage is bad. Don't listen to him. He has no more or less authority than anyone else who reads the rules and then posts his opinion on the internet. And just for reference, this is a general statement. I don't care or have an opinion on being flat-footed after the first round, so I'm not fighting that. 2) I think there is a third camp that I belong to. In my camp, people love rogues, but lament the fact that they are so very crappy because they have to jump through hoops just to use their iconic class feature. I genuinely want the rogue to be able to sneak attack almost all the time, but know they can't according to RAW. I don't think I've ever recommended, played, or GMed for someone playing a rogue or any other character relying on sneak attack after the Complete Warrior errata was released and Invisible Blade's free action feint was nerfed. Just use Swashbuckler and/or Shadow Blade to get Int/Dex to damage and call yourself a rogue. Its a lot less painful.
WebJiCi 02-18-08, 09:08 AM	The last sentence of that FAQ threw me off. Being invis renders the opponent flat-footed? Wouldn't the opponent be flat-footed once invis popped?A sneak attack occurs when either a foe is denied of its Dex bonus to AC or when it is flanked. Being invisible via the invisibility spell and also flanking a foe will guarante sneak attack damage on every attack even if you become visible after the first attack, because you are still flanking the foe. "Flat-footed", from what I can understand, is that the foe will immediately be aware of its surroundings, as well as its assaillants, as soon as it gets hit. I assume that the opponent stops being flat-footed between the first and second attack even if it's just a matter of seconds.
Belkar 02-18-08, 09:10 AM	And this is why our maligned friend, the ninja (from CAd), continues to be played despite the fact that sudden strike is less versatile than sneak attack. Because a ninja can turn invisible for a full round - and stay that way - no matter what he does. ;)
Seridan 02-18-08, 09:40 AM	Very long story short: A rogue with: TWF, IWTF, and GTWF and enough BAB to get 3 attacks does six attacks in a round. Said rogue wears a ring of inivis, sneaks up behind an unaware opponent, waits til next round and strikes with all 6 attacks. After the first attack, invis is gone, but the opponent is still flat-footed and surprised... So, does the rogue get 6 sneak attacks vs the flat-footed opponent? (assuming they all hit.) I will ask something similar. Combat starts, I win the initiative and play first. I use Shadow Blink from Tome of Battle to close to my opponent as a swift action and make a full attack on him. According to this from the SRD: Each combatant starts out flat-footed. Once a combatant acts, he or she is no longer flat-footed since he didn't have the chance to act, all my attacks are sneak attacks right?
jaelis 02-18-08, 09:45 AM	since he didn't have the chance to act, all my attacks are sneak attacks right? Yes, definitely. (Unless he has uncanny dodge, of course.)
elonin 02-18-08, 12:48 PM	2) I think there is a third camp that I belong to. In my camp, people love rogues, but lament the fact that they are so very crappy because they have to jump through hoops just to use their iconic class feature. I genuinely want the rogue to be able to sneak attack almost all the time, but know they can't according to RAW. I don't think I've ever recommended, played, or GMed for someone playing a rogue or any other character relying on sneak attack after the Complete Warrior errata was released and Invisible Blade's free action feint was nerfed. Just use Swashbuckler and/or Shadow Blade to get Int/Dex to damage and call yourself a rogue. Its a lot less painful. I fall into this camp also, but oddly enough I get called a lot of names by dm's who hate sneak attacks. When I check the situation and see a sneak possiblity I do ask my DM what he thinks. He's always free to say no (without resentment) I do the rogue/ swash builds to get the extra damage. My practical answer is to use my first round to get into a multi flank situation and wait for the warrior types to get into melee. I also tend to equip with a blade w/ blurstrike on it and a mithrialmist chain shirt.
ashmanonar 02-18-08, 01:03 PM	Yes, definitely. (Unless he has uncanny dodge, of course.) Mwahahaha! barbarian ducks the attacks
ToastedAmphibian 02-19-08, 12:53 AM	I will ask something similar. Combat starts, I win the initiative and play first. I use Shadow Blink from Tome of Battle to close to my opponent as a swift action and make a full attack on him. According to this from the SRD: Each combatant starts out flat-footed. Once a combatant acts, he or she is no longer flat-footed since he didn't have the chance to act, all my attacks are sneak attacks right? With a high enough jump bonus, sudden leap also works here. And pounce, if you can get it, will let you charge in the suprise round and make a full attack, all of which would be sneak attacks. So yeah, one MORE reason to take that damn 1 level barb dip.... seriously, its good for EVERYTHING and EVERYONE that isnt A) a Wizard or B) a Sorcerer . And if they like polymorph its kinda good for them also.....