TWF+Flurry? [Archive] - Wizards Community

TWF+Flurry? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
hylianswordsman
02-28-07, 08:28 PM Hey guys, my DM and I can't seem to agree on whether a Monk's Flurry of Blows can be used when the character is using Two Weapon Fighting. Any imput would be appreciated.
TheCobra
02-28-07, 08:31 PM According to the FAQ, they work together just fine.
crimsonwolf
02-28-07, 08:35 PM no
SALDAR
02-28-07, 08:57 PM According to the FAQ, yes. You make your flurry attacks as primary attacks and the off hand attacks from TWF. Both the Flurry and TWF penalties apply and you cannot use a weapon as both a flurry weapon and an off hand weapon.
KurenaiYami
02-28-07, 09:10 PM Yes, you can.
Nivek Loneshadow
02-28-07, 09:27 PM According to the FAQ, yes. You make your flurry attacks as primary attacks and the off hand attacks from TWF. Both the Flurry and TWF penalties apply and you cannot use a weapon as both a flurry weapon and an off hand weapon.

Could you give an example on this then? I always thought you could not do it. Then I found the FAQ lets you. However I'm not sure I follow exactly how.
StruckingFuggle
02-28-07, 09:36 PM no

Okay, why not?

Cite rules.

Because you can cite rules (not just the FAQ, but rules) to show that they do work.

You can say they shouldn't, and tha'ts fine (but meh, 9 times out of 10, how bad can it be, really?)... but you can't really say that they don't.

Or at least so I'd think, so I'm curious on what you base your disagreement.

Could you give an example on this then? I always thought you could not do it. Then I found the FAQ lets you. However I'm not sure I follow exactly how.

What do you mean, "an example on this" and that you "don't follow exactly how"?

Flurry of Blows: "When unarmored, a monk may strike with a flurry of blows at the expense of accuracy. When doing so, she may make one extra attack in a round at her highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a -2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round."

Two Weapon Fighting: "If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon."

Seems clear to me.
StruckingFuggle
02-28-07, 09:39 PM Oops. Double post.
SALDAR
02-28-07, 10:08 PM Could you give an example on this then? I always thought you could not do it. Then I found the FAQ lets you. However I'm not sure I follow exactly how.
I'll use a 1st level monk as an example. The monk's BAB is +0 giving him a single attack per round. If he flurries he make an extra attack with a monk weapon and takes a -2 to all attacks made that round, so he flurries for two attacks at -2/-2. Now he can TWF along with his flurry. This gives an extra attack with his off hand in addition to his flurry attacks. His flurry attacks become his primary attacks and he takes a -6 penalty to these, which become -8/-8 and he takes a -10 to his off hand attack for twfing and a -2 for flurrying. So when he flurries and twf his attacks would be -8/-8/-12.

These penalties can be reduced. If the off hand weapon is light then the twf penalties go from -6 to -4 primary and from -10 to -8 off hand plus the -2 for flurry for a routine of -6/-6/-10.

The Two Weapon Fighting feat changes the penalties from -6 to -4 for primary and from -10 to -4 off hand plus the -2 for flurry for a routine of -6/-6/-6.

If he uses TWF feat and a light weapon in the off hand then the twfing penalties are -2 for both the primary and off hand and -2 for flurry. So the routine would be -4/-4/-4.

The flurry attacks must be with a monk weapon but the off hand attack can be with any weapon, including another monk weapon but not with a weapon used for the flurry attacks. Don't forget that an attack with an off hand weapon gets only 1/2 strength bonus.
Zumarai
03-01-07, 07:21 AM 18th level thri-kreen monk (2 monstrous humanoid HD) with Greater Multi-Weapon Fighting and a 10 Str:

Full Attack: Flurry of blows +13/+13/+13/+8/+3 and unarmed strike +13/+8/+3 and unarmed strike +13/+8/+3 and unarmed strike +13/+8/+3 and bite +10

15 attacks per round.
TheGogmagog
03-01-07, 12:33 PM 18th level thri-kreen monk (2 monstrous humanoid HD) with Greater Multi-Weapon Fighting and a 10 Str:

Full Attack: Flurry of blows +13/+13/+13/+8/+3 and unarmed strike +13/+8/+3 and unarmed strike +13/+8/+3 and unarmed strike +13/+8/+3 and bite +10

15 attacks per round.
NO.
You Either get naural weapon attacks, OR you get itterative attacks. Check out the dragon for comparison.
Melpomene
03-01-07, 12:37 PM The rules also say you don't have to use hands for monk attacks. So, you could flurry (-4/-4 unarmed FTSOA) and TWF (-4/-4 armed). Four attacks per round. It's all very vague.
StruckingFuggle
03-01-07, 01:10 PM NO.
You Either get naural weapon attacks, OR you get itterative attacks. Check out the dragon for comparison.

Uhm, what? A Full Dragon doesn't have a manufactured weapon, and thus has no ability to make iterative attacks to begin with (since you need a manufactured weapon to do so with).

A far better thing to look at would be the Half-Dragon. In fact, check the SRD or your MMI...:

Full Attack
A half-dragon fighting without weapons uses both claws and its bite when making a full attack. If armed with a weapon, it usually uses the weapon as its primary attack and its bite as a natural secondary attack. If it has a hand free, it uses a claw as an additional natural secondary attack.

That, alone, makes it explicitly clear that a creature with a manufactured weapon and natural attacks gets its manufactured iteratives as primary attacks and all natural weapons it can use (ones not tied up by previous attacks by wielding weapons) as secondary attacks.

If you wanted to look at dragons, you'd need to look at either a Dragon who was somehow wielding a weapon, or a dragon with a level of monk (neither of which we have examples of in published WotC material.

And to prove its not an exception exclusive to the half dragon, there's also the Troll Hunter, whose listed full attack is "2 claws +16 melee (1d6+7) and bite +11 melee (1d6+3); or +1 battleaxe +17/+12 melee (2d6+8/×3) and claw +12 melee (1d6+3) and bite +12 melee (1d6+3); or javelin +10 ranged (1d8+7)"

Seems pretty clear to me, at least re: iteratives + natural attacks.

Now if only Flurry + TWF was as explict.
Willie the Duck
03-02-07, 02:22 AM Hey guys, my DM and I can't seem to agree on whether a Monk's Flurry of Blows can be used when the character is using Two Weapon Fighting. Any imput would be appreciated.

You can, however, please note that a -2 to hit becomes more and more of a penalty the more attacks you have. If you already have a bazillion attacks that hit on a roll of an 8-12, then taking a -2 for one addional attack is a bad idea. If you happen to have full flurry progression and all the twf feats to get all the additional attacks for twf, you can now get all sorts of attacks per turn, but you spent alot of feats to do so, and each one still only hits rarely and for a moderate amount of damage.
Zumarai
03-02-07, 06:39 AM NO.
You Either get naural weapon attacks, OR you get itterative attacks. Check out the dragon for comparison.

YES.

Check out the FAQ and all will be revealed.

A creature can make secondary natural attacks in addition to iterative weapon attacks/unarmed strike/flurry.
StruckingFuggle
03-02-07, 01:58 PM Check out the FAQ and all will be revealed.

You don't even need to check out the FAQ, the proof is in the MM3.5.
UAMDB
03-02-07, 02:06 PM The rules also say you don't have to use hands for monk attacks. So, you could flurry (-4/-4 unarmed FTSOA) and TWF (-4/-4 armed). Four attacks per round. It's all very vague.

Actually you would only get 1 extra attack with TWF. A first level Monk with TWF feat using his right hand as his primary attack and flury would make two attacks at -2.

If he was to add a second attack with TWF then he would make 2 attacks with his right hand at -4, and his left hand at -4.

Three attacks. not four.
jameswilliamogle
03-02-07, 03:31 PM I understand why the FAQ is confusing.

Anyways, it says that you can use two-weapon fighting, but the feat Two-Weapon Fighting says "Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced", but it never says unarmed strikes are considered weapons, nor does it say anywhere other than the FAQ that you can make an off-hand attack w/ an unarmed strike. Its all very confusing, particularly since the FAQ is supposed to clear up rules issues, not make them.
Ranger REG
03-02-07, 07:17 PM Isn't unarmed strike mentioned in the weapons table and in the weapons description?
StruckingFuggle
03-02-07, 08:32 PM but it never says unarmed strikes are considered weapons, nor does it say anywhere other than the FAQ that you can make an off-hand attack w/ an unarmed strike.

Yes, it does, indeed, say that an unarmed strike is a weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#unarmedStrike).

Ergo, you can make an off-hand attack with an unarmed strike... I mean, it doesn't say you can make one with a bastard sword or a beer bottle, either.
jameswilliamogle
03-02-07, 09:16 PM Yes, it does, indeed, say that an unarmed strike is a weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#unarmedStrike).

Ergo, you can make an off-hand attack with an unarmed strike... I mean, it doesn't say you can make one with a bastard sword or a beer bottle, either.nm, then! i never saw that passage, thx for pointing it out.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
hylianswordsman 02-28-07, 08:28 PM	Hey guys, my DM and I can't seem to agree on whether a Monk's Flurry of Blows can be used when the character is using Two Weapon Fighting. Any imput would be appreciated.
TheCobra 02-28-07, 08:31 PM	According to the FAQ, they work together just fine.
crimsonwolf 02-28-07, 08:35 PM	no
SALDAR 02-28-07, 08:57 PM	According to the FAQ, yes. You make your flurry attacks as primary attacks and the off hand attacks from TWF. Both the Flurry and TWF penalties apply and you cannot use a weapon as both a flurry weapon and an off hand weapon.
KurenaiYami 02-28-07, 09:10 PM	Yes, you can.
Nivek Loneshadow 02-28-07, 09:27 PM	According to the FAQ, yes. You make your flurry attacks as primary attacks and the off hand attacks from TWF. Both the Flurry and TWF penalties apply and you cannot use a weapon as both a flurry weapon and an off hand weapon. Could you give an example on this then? I always thought you could not do it. Then I found the FAQ lets you. However I'm not sure I follow exactly how.
StruckingFuggle 02-28-07, 09:36 PM	no Okay, why not? Cite rules. Because you can cite rules (not just the FAQ, but rules) to show that they do work. You can say they shouldn't, and tha'ts fine (but meh, 9 times out of 10, how bad can it be, really?)... but you can't really say that they don't. Or at least so I'd think, so I'm curious on what you base your disagreement. Could you give an example on this then? I always thought you could not do it. Then I found the FAQ lets you. However I'm not sure I follow exactly how. What do you mean, "an example on this" and that you "don't follow exactly how"? Flurry of Blows: "When unarmored, a monk may strike with a flurry of blows at the expense of accuracy. When doing so, she may make one extra attack in a round at her highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a -2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round." Two Weapon Fighting: "If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon." Seems clear to me.
StruckingFuggle 02-28-07, 09:39 PM	Oops. Double post.
SALDAR 02-28-07, 10:08 PM	Could you give an example on this then? I always thought you could not do it. Then I found the FAQ lets you. However I'm not sure I follow exactly how. I'll use a 1st level monk as an example. The monk's BAB is +0 giving him a single attack per round. If he flurries he make an extra attack with a monk weapon and takes a -2 to all attacks made that round, so he flurries for two attacks at -2/-2. Now he can TWF along with his flurry. This gives an extra attack with his off hand in addition to his flurry attacks. His flurry attacks become his primary attacks and he takes a -6 penalty to these, which become -8/-8 and he takes a -10 to his off hand attack for twfing and a -2 for flurrying. So when he flurries and twf his attacks would be -8/-8/-12. These penalties can be reduced. If the off hand weapon is light then the twf penalties go from -6 to -4 primary and from -10 to -8 off hand plus the -2 for flurry for a routine of -6/-6/-10. The Two Weapon Fighting feat changes the penalties from -6 to -4 for primary and from -10 to -4 off hand plus the -2 for flurry for a routine of -6/-6/-6. If he uses TWF feat and a light weapon in the off hand then the twfing penalties are -2 for both the primary and off hand and -2 for flurry. So the routine would be -4/-4/-4. The flurry attacks must be with a monk weapon but the off hand attack can be with any weapon, including another monk weapon but not with a weapon used for the flurry attacks. Don't forget that an attack with an off hand weapon gets only 1/2 strength bonus.
Zumarai 03-01-07, 07:21 AM	18th level thri-kreen monk (2 monstrous humanoid HD) with Greater Multi-Weapon Fighting and a 10 Str: Full Attack: Flurry of blows +13/+13/+13/+8/+3 and unarmed strike +13/+8/+3 and unarmed strike +13/+8/+3 and unarmed strike +13/+8/+3 and bite +10 15 attacks per round.
TheGogmagog 03-01-07, 12:33 PM	18th level thri-kreen monk (2 monstrous humanoid HD) with Greater Multi-Weapon Fighting and a 10 Str: Full Attack: Flurry of blows +13/+13/+13/+8/+3 and unarmed strike +13/+8/+3 and unarmed strike +13/+8/+3 and unarmed strike +13/+8/+3 and bite +10 15 attacks per round. NO. You Either get naural weapon attacks, OR you get itterative attacks. Check out the dragon for comparison.
Melpomene 03-01-07, 12:37 PM	The rules also say you don't have to use hands for monk attacks. So, you could flurry (-4/-4 unarmed FTSOA) and TWF (-4/-4 armed). Four attacks per round. It's all very vague.
StruckingFuggle 03-01-07, 01:10 PM	NO. You Either get naural weapon attacks, OR you get itterative attacks. Check out the dragon for comparison. Uhm, what? A Full Dragon doesn't have a manufactured weapon, and thus has no ability to make iterative attacks to begin with (since you need a manufactured weapon to do so with). A far better thing to look at would be the Half-Dragon. In fact, check the SRD or your MMI...: Full Attack A half-dragon fighting without weapons uses both claws and its bite when making a full attack. If armed with a weapon, it usually uses the weapon as its primary attack and its bite as a natural secondary attack. If it has a hand free, it uses a claw as an additional natural secondary attack. That, alone, makes it explicitly clear that a creature with a manufactured weapon and natural attacks gets its manufactured iteratives as primary attacks and all natural weapons it can use (ones not tied up by previous attacks by wielding weapons) as secondary attacks. If you wanted to look at dragons, you'd need to look at either a Dragon who was somehow wielding a weapon, or a dragon with a level of monk (neither of which we have examples of in published WotC material. And to prove its not an exception exclusive to the half dragon, there's also the Troll Hunter, whose listed full attack is "2 claws +16 melee (1d6+7) and bite +11 melee (1d6+3); or +1 battleaxe +17/+12 melee (2d6+8/×3) and claw +12 melee (1d6+3) and bite +12 melee (1d6+3); or javelin +10 ranged (1d8+7)" Seems pretty clear to me, at least re: iteratives + natural attacks. Now if only Flurry + TWF was as explict.
Willie the Duck 03-02-07, 02:22 AM	Hey guys, my DM and I can't seem to agree on whether a Monk's Flurry of Blows can be used when the character is using Two Weapon Fighting. Any imput would be appreciated. You can, however, please note that a -2 to hit becomes more and more of a penalty the more attacks you have. If you already have a bazillion attacks that hit on a roll of an 8-12, then taking a -2 for one addional attack is a bad idea. If you happen to have full flurry progression and all the twf feats to get all the additional attacks for twf, you can now get all sorts of attacks per turn, but you spent alot of feats to do so, and each one still only hits rarely and for a moderate amount of damage.
Zumarai 03-02-07, 06:39 AM	NO. You Either get naural weapon attacks, OR you get itterative attacks. Check out the dragon for comparison. YES. Check out the FAQ and all will be revealed. A creature can make secondary natural attacks in addition to iterative weapon attacks/unarmed strike/flurry.
StruckingFuggle 03-02-07, 01:58 PM	Check out the FAQ and all will be revealed. You don't even need to check out the FAQ, the proof is in the MM3.5.
UAMDB 03-02-07, 02:06 PM	The rules also say you don't have to use hands for monk attacks. So, you could flurry (-4/-4 unarmed FTSOA) and TWF (-4/-4 armed). Four attacks per round. It's all very vague. Actually you would only get 1 extra attack with TWF. A first level Monk with TWF feat using his right hand as his primary attack and flury would make two attacks at -2. If he was to add a second attack with TWF then he would make 2 attacks with his right hand at -4, and his left hand at -4. Three attacks. not four.
jameswilliamogle 03-02-07, 03:31 PM	I understand why the FAQ is confusing. Anyways, it says that you can use two-weapon fighting, but the feat Two-Weapon Fighting says "Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced", but it never says unarmed strikes are considered weapons, nor does it say anywhere other than the FAQ that you can make an off-hand attack w/ an unarmed strike. Its all very confusing, particularly since the FAQ is supposed to clear up rules issues, not make them.
Ranger REG 03-02-07, 07:17 PM	Isn't unarmed strike mentioned in the weapons table and in the weapons description?
StruckingFuggle 03-02-07, 08:32 PM	but it never says unarmed strikes are considered weapons, nor does it say anywhere other than the FAQ that you can make an off-hand attack w/ an unarmed strike. Yes, it does, indeed, say that an unarmed strike is a weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#unarmedStrike). Ergo, you can make an off-hand attack with an unarmed strike... I mean, it doesn't say you can make one with a bastard sword or a beer bottle, either.
jameswilliamogle 03-02-07, 09:16 PM	Yes, it does, indeed, say that an unarmed strike is a weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#unarmedStrike). Ergo, you can make an off-hand attack with an unarmed strike... I mean, it doesn't say you can make one with a bastard sword or a beer bottle, either.nm, then! i never saw that passage, thx for pointing it out.