TWF rogue feats [Archive] - Wizards Community

TWF rogue feats [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Droma
04-11-07, 01:10 PM Im building a human rogue that will be TWF and wondering a bit on feat selection. Right now I have TWF and TW defence as my first lvl feats. Im wondering would dodge or maybe something else all together be a better feat to take? Perhaps combat expertise because I do like the benefits of improved fient.

Thoughts and opinions from players who have tried this type of build would be apreciated.

Planned feats right now
1st- TWF, TW defence
3rd- Combat expertise
6th- improved fient

or

1st- TWF, combat expertise
3rd- improved fient
6th- weapon finese

stats are str 14, dex 15, con 12, int 13, wis 8, cha 10
1hitparry
04-11-07, 01:45 PM I'd say TWF, Weapon Finesse are very important. I wouldn't bother with improved feint. If you're TWF, you might as well try to maximize damage by making full round attacks while flanking, or manuvering into flanking position. I'm not too sure about combat expertise. 3/4 BAB, it might be hard to hit enemies as it is, CE will give you more AC, but make it even harder to hit things. If you're using a rapier or another high crit weapon, I've read that Telling Blow (I think it's from PhBII) is good.
Droma
04-11-07, 01:55 PM I'd say TWF, Weapon Finesse are very important. I wouldn't bother with improved feint. If you're TWF, you might as well try to maximize damage by making full round attacks while flanking, or manuvering into flanking position. I'm not too sure about combat expertise. 3/4 BAB, it might be hard to hit enemies as it is, CE will give you more AC, but make it even harder to hit things. If you're using a rapier or another high crit weapon, I've read that Telling Blow (I think it's from PhBII) is good.

Reason for the combat expertise was to get imp fient. If i cant manage to flank I can fient as a move action they are denied dex and i get to take a full round sneak attack with both weapons then.
tarkin
04-11-07, 02:00 PM I would not get TW Defense.

Go with option 2.
1hitparry
04-11-07, 02:01 PM Even with Improved Feint, it will take you a move action to make a feint attempt, so you can't full round attack.
Droma
04-11-07, 02:08 PM shoot....forgot about that little bit.

1- TWF, ?
3- weapon finesse rapier
6- weapon finesse dagger
9- imp TWF

Also a quick rules question, Im flanking my enemy with a BaB of 6 so i get a 2nd mainhand attack. Do i apply sneak attack dmg to the 2nd attack if it hits or does sneak attack only work off the first attack? I think its the 1st option but i want to make sure.
Frugal
04-11-07, 02:09 PM Feint also only denies their DEX bonus for your next attack (single), not a full attack.

I'd ditch TWD too, it's not that great, and take weapon finesse instead, odds are you'll be fighting with 2 light weapons given a rogue's weapon proficiencies.
G_Mancer
04-11-07, 02:11 PM your a rogue1, BAB 0. requirements on all TWF feats, weapon finness are all BAB1.

when youre rogue finally gets to TWF in a few lvls, you should focus on hitting. more you hit, more you sneak attack. take weapon focus also, for later lvls, there are feats in complete adv. that say "sacrifice 1d6 for bleeding wound", and "sacrifice 2d6 to half your opponents movement speed", and one in complete warrior that staggers your opponent if it cant pass a fort save DC damage you dealt. one is BAB 6, and the other is BAB 9 pre-reqs

\
also feinting is a move action, (which means no full round action.) and i should remind you that if a char is flanked they are sneak attacked, unless they have imp, uncanny dodge.
Frugal
04-11-07, 02:11 PM shoot....forgot about that little bit.

1- TWF, ?
3- weapon finesse rapier
6- weapon finesse dagger
9- imp TWF

Also a quick rules question, Im flanking my enemy with a BaB of 6 so i get a 2nd mainhand attack. Do i apply sneak attack dmg to the 2nd attack if it hits or does sneak attack only work off the first attack? I think its the 1st option but i want to make sure.

Weapon finesse applies to all finesseable weapons, you only need to take it once.

If you qualify to make a sneak attack then all your attacks qualify as long as the condition continues to apply. So for flanking, you're flanking the whole time so every attack deals sneak attack.
Droma
04-11-07, 02:13 PM Ok so no imp fient and no tw defence. That still leaves the question as to what my other first lvl feat should be since weapon finesse requires a +1 BaB. Thinking about dodge and nimble fingers. I dont own complete scoundral but someone in my playgroup does and will let me borrow it. Anything in there that may be usefull?
Droma
04-11-07, 02:15 PM Weapon finesse applies to all finesseable weapons, you only need to take it once.

If you qualify to make a sneak attack then all your attacks qualify as long as the condition continues to apply. So for flanking, you're flanking the whole time so every attack deals sneak attack.

Sorry dont have my books infront of me and Ive been playing casters so I sometimes screw mellee feats up. Thanks for clarifying.
Aracor
04-11-07, 02:30 PM You cannot go wrong with improved initiative.
Droma
04-11-07, 03:01 PM You cannot go wrong with improved initiative.

True, it is one of a few feats that remain nice at higher lvls.

So right now

1- TWF, Improved Initiative
3- weapon finesse
6- Weapon focus rapier?
9- ITWF
Steidas
04-11-07, 03:04 PM 1.)Two Weapon Fighting
1.)Weapon Focus (Dagger?)
3.)Weapon Finnesse
6.)Telling Blow

Fight with two daggers and ALL boosts go to Dex. Dare you crit someone, you add your Sneak Attack Damage too on the crit.
Frugal
04-11-07, 03:06 PM 1.)Two Weapon Fighting
1.)Weapon Focus (Dagger?)
3.)Weapon Finnesse
6.)Telling Blow

Fight with two daggers and ALL boosts go to Dex. Dare you crit someone, you add your Sneak Attack Damage too on the crit.

I'd go for the rapier then for the greater crit range then.
Steidas
04-11-07, 03:11 PM I'd go for the rapier then for the greater crit range then.

Then forget Weapon Focus on Dagger and change it for Improved Initiative or any other feat that would let you get nearear quicker.
Droma
04-11-07, 03:14 PM Telling blow does what? also as i cant check right now does rapier count as a light weapon for TWF penalties or just being allowed to be weapon finnessed?
Frugal
04-11-07, 03:17 PM Telling blow does what? also as i cant check right now does rapier count as a light weapon for TWF penalties or just being allowed to be weapon finnessed?

Just for finesse, it's a one-handed finesseable weapon. So I'd probably go rapier + dagger. I'm also away from my books but if memory serves, telling blow is in PHB 2 and allows you sneak attack damage on a confirmed crit.
sineous blackspell
04-11-07, 04:25 PM combat reflexes,expert tactition,power attack cleave,great cleave (take 2 fighter levels) if your going with weapon finese for rapier get a small rapier for your left hand (something most never think of) cleave and great cleave seem like fighter feats but just imagine the 2 guards you snuck up on when you begin swinging :) yea and improved init always helpful whatever gives you more attacks
Frugal
04-11-07, 05:09 PM if your going with weapon finese for rapier get a small rapier for your left hand (something most never think of)

Remember the -2 for using an inappropriately sized weapon (something else most people never think of).
WinterPsionic
04-11-07, 06:43 PM at your leve what exactly do you expect to gain from Weapon Finesse? You won't even have the Dex for it to make a small difference until level 4. I'm just curious as to why you want to throw Weapon Finesse in so early.
Droma
04-11-07, 08:08 PM at your leve what exactly do you expect to gain from Weapon Finesse? You won't even have the Dex for it to make a small difference until level 4. I'm just curious as to why you want to throw Weapon Finesse in so early.

Exactly why ive been asking opinions lol. I guess I can wait however what feat to take instead? Dodge? Combat Reflexes?

My reasoning for weapon finesse however is that if you check my stats that i posted im starting with a 15 in dex and a 14str so my stat at lvl4 will be dex thus making weapon finesse at lvl3 now usefull.
1hitparry
04-11-07, 11:15 PM If you can I would lower STR and put it into something else. Later on in the game, the extra damage from your STR really won't matter that much, so you will be better off with more skills, more HP (since you only get a d6 for HP), or a better will save. It'll also make taking weapon finesse more worth your while. Out of all the feat progressions, I like 1) TWF + Improve Initiative 3) Weapon Finesse 6)Telling Blow. That's also influenced by how I imagine playing a rogue, which probably differs from what you imagine. I hope that helps.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Droma 04-11-07, 01:10 PM	Im building a human rogue that will be TWF and wondering a bit on feat selection. Right now I have TWF and TW defence as my first lvl feats. Im wondering would dodge or maybe something else all together be a better feat to take? Perhaps combat expertise because I do like the benefits of improved fient. Thoughts and opinions from players who have tried this type of build would be apreciated. Planned feats right now 1st- TWF, TW defence 3rd- Combat expertise 6th- improved fient or 1st- TWF, combat expertise 3rd- improved fient 6th- weapon finese stats are str 14, dex 15, con 12, int 13, wis 8, cha 10
1hitparry 04-11-07, 01:45 PM	I'd say TWF, Weapon Finesse are very important. I wouldn't bother with improved feint. If you're TWF, you might as well try to maximize damage by making full round attacks while flanking, or manuvering into flanking position. I'm not too sure about combat expertise. 3/4 BAB, it might be hard to hit enemies as it is, CE will give you more AC, but make it even harder to hit things. If you're using a rapier or another high crit weapon, I've read that Telling Blow (I think it's from PhBII) is good.
Droma 04-11-07, 01:55 PM	I'd say TWF, Weapon Finesse are very important. I wouldn't bother with improved feint. If you're TWF, you might as well try to maximize damage by making full round attacks while flanking, or manuvering into flanking position. I'm not too sure about combat expertise. 3/4 BAB, it might be hard to hit enemies as it is, CE will give you more AC, but make it even harder to hit things. If you're using a rapier or another high crit weapon, I've read that Telling Blow (I think it's from PhBII) is good. Reason for the combat expertise was to get imp fient. If i cant manage to flank I can fient as a move action they are denied dex and i get to take a full round sneak attack with both weapons then.
tarkin 04-11-07, 02:00 PM	I would not get TW Defense. Go with option 2.
1hitparry 04-11-07, 02:01 PM	Even with Improved Feint, it will take you a move action to make a feint attempt, so you can't full round attack.
Droma 04-11-07, 02:08 PM	shoot....forgot about that little bit. 1- TWF, ? 3- weapon finesse rapier 6- weapon finesse dagger 9- imp TWF Also a quick rules question, Im flanking my enemy with a BaB of 6 so i get a 2nd mainhand attack. Do i apply sneak attack dmg to the 2nd attack if it hits or does sneak attack only work off the first attack? I think its the 1st option but i want to make sure.
Frugal 04-11-07, 02:09 PM	Feint also only denies their DEX bonus for your next attack (single), not a full attack. I'd ditch TWD too, it's not that great, and take weapon finesse instead, odds are you'll be fighting with 2 light weapons given a rogue's weapon proficiencies.
G_Mancer 04-11-07, 02:11 PM	your a rogue1, BAB 0. requirements on all TWF feats, weapon finness are all BAB1. when youre rogue finally gets to TWF in a few lvls, you should focus on hitting. more you hit, more you sneak attack. take weapon focus also, for later lvls, there are feats in complete adv. that say "sacrifice 1d6 for bleeding wound", and "sacrifice 2d6 to half your opponents movement speed", and one in complete warrior that staggers your opponent if it cant pass a fort save DC damage you dealt. one is BAB 6, and the other is BAB 9 pre-reqs \ also feinting is a move action, (which means no full round action.) and i should remind you that if a char is flanked they are sneak attacked, unless they have imp, uncanny dodge.
Frugal 04-11-07, 02:11 PM	shoot....forgot about that little bit. 1- TWF, ? 3- weapon finesse rapier 6- weapon finesse dagger 9- imp TWF Also a quick rules question, Im flanking my enemy with a BaB of 6 so i get a 2nd mainhand attack. Do i apply sneak attack dmg to the 2nd attack if it hits or does sneak attack only work off the first attack? I think its the 1st option but i want to make sure. Weapon finesse applies to all finesseable weapons, you only need to take it once. If you qualify to make a sneak attack then all your attacks qualify as long as the condition continues to apply. So for flanking, you're flanking the whole time so every attack deals sneak attack.
Droma 04-11-07, 02:13 PM	Ok so no imp fient and no tw defence. That still leaves the question as to what my other first lvl feat should be since weapon finesse requires a +1 BaB. Thinking about dodge and nimble fingers. I dont own complete scoundral but someone in my playgroup does and will let me borrow it. Anything in there that may be usefull?
Droma 04-11-07, 02:15 PM	Weapon finesse applies to all finesseable weapons, you only need to take it once. If you qualify to make a sneak attack then all your attacks qualify as long as the condition continues to apply. So for flanking, you're flanking the whole time so every attack deals sneak attack. Sorry dont have my books infront of me and Ive been playing casters so I sometimes screw mellee feats up. Thanks for clarifying.
Aracor 04-11-07, 02:30 PM	You cannot go wrong with improved initiative.
Droma 04-11-07, 03:01 PM	You cannot go wrong with improved initiative. True, it is one of a few feats that remain nice at higher lvls. So right now 1- TWF, Improved Initiative 3- weapon finesse 6- Weapon focus rapier? 9- ITWF
Steidas 04-11-07, 03:04 PM	1.)Two Weapon Fighting 1.)Weapon Focus (Dagger?) 3.)Weapon Finnesse 6.)Telling Blow Fight with two daggers and ALL boosts go to Dex. Dare you crit someone, you add your Sneak Attack Damage too on the crit.
Frugal 04-11-07, 03:06 PM	1.)Two Weapon Fighting 1.)Weapon Focus (Dagger?) 3.)Weapon Finnesse 6.)Telling Blow Fight with two daggers and ALL boosts go to Dex. Dare you crit someone, you add your Sneak Attack Damage too on the crit. I'd go for the rapier then for the greater crit range then.
Steidas 04-11-07, 03:11 PM	I'd go for the rapier then for the greater crit range then. Then forget Weapon Focus on Dagger and change it for Improved Initiative or any other feat that would let you get nearear quicker.
Droma 04-11-07, 03:14 PM	Telling blow does what? also as i cant check right now does rapier count as a light weapon for TWF penalties or just being allowed to be weapon finnessed?
Frugal 04-11-07, 03:17 PM	Telling blow does what? also as i cant check right now does rapier count as a light weapon for TWF penalties or just being allowed to be weapon finnessed? Just for finesse, it's a one-handed finesseable weapon. So I'd probably go rapier + dagger. I'm also away from my books but if memory serves, telling blow is in PHB 2 and allows you sneak attack damage on a confirmed crit.
sineous blackspell 04-11-07, 04:25 PM	combat reflexes,expert tactition,power attack cleave,great cleave (take 2 fighter levels) if your going with weapon finese for rapier get a small rapier for your left hand (something most never think of) cleave and great cleave seem like fighter feats but just imagine the 2 guards you snuck up on when you begin swinging :) yea and improved init always helpful whatever gives you more attacks
Frugal 04-11-07, 05:09 PM	if your going with weapon finese for rapier get a small rapier for your left hand (something most never think of) Remember the -2 for using an inappropriately sized weapon (something else most people never think of).
WinterPsionic 04-11-07, 06:43 PM	at your leve what exactly do you expect to gain from Weapon Finesse? You won't even have the Dex for it to make a small difference until level 4. I'm just curious as to why you want to throw Weapon Finesse in so early.
Droma 04-11-07, 08:08 PM	at your leve what exactly do you expect to gain from Weapon Finesse? You won't even have the Dex for it to make a small difference until level 4. I'm just curious as to why you want to throw Weapon Finesse in so early. Exactly why ive been asking opinions lol. I guess I can wait however what feat to take instead? Dodge? Combat Reflexes? My reasoning for weapon finesse however is that if you check my stats that i posted im starting with a 15 in dex and a 14str so my stat at lvl4 will be dex thus making weapon finesse at lvl3 now usefull.
1hitparry 04-11-07, 11:15 PM	If you can I would lower STR and put it into something else. Later on in the game, the extra damage from your STR really won't matter that much, so you will be better off with more skills, more HP (since you only get a d6 for HP), or a better will save. It'll also make taking weapon finesse more worth your while. Out of all the feat progressions, I like 1) TWF + Improve Initiative 3) Weapon Finesse 6)Telling Blow. That's also influenced by how I imagine playing a rogue, which probably differs from what you imagine. I hope that helps.