TWF with Crossbows [Archive] - Wizards Community

TWF with Crossbows [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
grok_grok
01-29-08, 05:32 PM Is it possible to use to handcrossbows for TWF. THe problem I see happening is when you reload. What happens when you have multiple attacks and you have rapid reload, can you get your full attack your can you only fire off a bolt from each hand crossbow and then have to stop your attack and reload?
jaelis
01-29-08, 06:19 PM Yes, it doesn't really work.

There's an autoloading magical enhancement of some kind, I forget where. Another possibility is to carry several loaded crossbows and use quickdraw.
StevenO
01-29-08, 06:24 PM You can use TWF with crossbows (although the bigger ones have some severe drawbacks) but as you note you run into some problems when it comes time to reload. Rapid Reload lets you reload at a faster rate but it doesn't negate the need for two hands to do so. Because you need two hands to load you could start TWF with crossbows but would have to drop one (a free action) to reload the other.

There may be a magic item property someplace that will automatically load and ready a crossbow. I don't know where it may be but if you find it you could then fire crossbow with both hands without needing to drop one to reload.
Orenmir
01-29-08, 06:31 PM Thri-Kreen... problem solved! :P
ToastedAmphibian
01-29-08, 07:05 PM Thri-Kreen... problem solved! :P

Multi weapon Fighting with crossbows?

Seriously, if two are better than one...
VulcanStormwrath
01-29-08, 07:17 PM Quickloading stores 100 bolts before you need to reload and if you've loaded different ones the one you choose is loaded next.

Versatile Combatant allows you to fight with a Rapier in one hand and a Hand Crossbow in the other, treats you as having TWF, allows you to split your iterative attacks amongst the2 weapons as you choose, and allows you to use a hand crossbow in melee without penalties and without giving up attacks of opportunity.

Combine with Weapon Finesse to let Dex determine both melee and ranged and you're a nightmare. Put the Eager quality or Crystal of Calling on either to allow you to Quickdraw one or both.

Or take TWF with 2 Eager Quickloading Hand Crossbows or 2 Quickloading with the Crystal. Add the Exit Wounds quality for real nastiness and to boost your damage output. Keep up the TWF tree and take some Shotfeats and you've got Dante.
Drackthor
01-29-08, 08:00 PM Quickloading stores 100 bolts before you need to reload and if you've loaded different ones the one you choose is loaded next.

Versatile Combatant allows you to fight with a Rapier in one hand and a Hand Crossbow in the other, treats you as having TWF, allows you to split your iterative attacks amongst the2 weapons as you choose, and allows you to use a hand crossbow in melee without penalties and without giving up attacks of opportunity.

Combine with Weapon Finesse to let Dex determine both melee and ranged and you're a nightmare. Put the Eager quality or Crystal of Calling on either to allow you to Quickdraw one or both.

Or take TWF with 2 Eager Quickloading Hand Crossbows or 2 Quickloading with the Crystal. Add the Exit Wounds quality for real nastiness and to boost your damage output. Keep up the TWF tree and take some Shotfeats and you've got Dante.

Wow. It's totally time for me to make a John Woo character, running down hallways, dual crossbows blazing. :ayyyy!:
tyrecian
01-29-08, 09:42 PM while all this is true, sometimes it pays off anyways without magical craziness.

The idea is when a rogue is hidden and is granted a partial action, within 30'. Hand X-bows are already poisoned and ready to be used. He uses his 2wf and gets sneak attack 2x to his opponent as well as poison.

Hoping he wins initiative, he can draw weapons as he moves (or quickdraw and charge) for 4x SA damage and potentially poison, b4 the combat begins in earnest for the party (assuming he opens combat with ambush PA and then beats all others in init, not too hard for most of the rogues in my games).

I have seen this used to bring down an unwary monster while the pally and wizzy dawdle with its henchies.
StevenO
01-29-08, 11:48 PM Sorry tyrecian but it doesn't quite work as you state.

If you get surprise you can't make a full attack which means you couldn't fire a weapon in each hand anyway. Surprise limits a character to standard actions. Now if you win initiative the following turn you could stand there and make a full attack but moving in will take your move action and again prevent you from taking the full attack action you need to use two weapons.

That's not to say that having a loaded hand crossbow in one hand and a weapon in the other is useless. While a thrown weapon can often work just as well having that crossbow in hand lets the rogue make that surprise round attack that they may normally spend moving into position. After initiative is rolled having a melee weapon ready either gives them options if an enemy moves on them or allows them to move in for a second SA.
McPoyo
01-30-08, 12:34 PM Isn't there a feat in the CAdv that lets you get off one attack with each weapon as a standard action? I might be remembering that wrong. If not, it works then.

Alternatively, burn an Action point and do it :P
blade265
01-30-08, 12:35 PM There are also the repeating crossbows the the player hand book.
jaelis
01-30-08, 01:27 PM There are also the repeating crossbows the the player hand book.

They still take two hands to reload though.
McPoyo
01-30-08, 02:09 PM Two hands to reload once every 5 shots :)
Ivellius
01-30-08, 02:17 PM And two hands to use the repeating lever, too. :D
StevenO
01-30-08, 02:46 PM I do believe the Repeating Crossbow at least spares you the possible AoO each time you work the level as opposed to reloading a normal Xbow.
McPoyo
01-30-08, 03:15 PM And two hands to use the repeating lever, too. :D

Good point...Hmm...
kimura121
01-30-08, 03:26 PM unfortunately the eager enchantment can only be put on melee weapons.
tyrecian
01-30-08, 06:28 PM The two Xbow attack must have come into play during the first full attack after partial, and then the enemy must have been within 5' after the first round but flanking with another PC...

ack i butcherred that example. I just remember a PC firing 2 hand Xbows and hitting hard with SA and poison and then somehow closing... :(

thanks fer catching that
BugHunter
01-30-08, 08:25 PM Isn't there a feat in the CAdv that lets you get off one attack with each weapon as a standard action? I might be remembering that wrong. If not, it works then.

Alternatively, burn an Action point and do it :P

You are remembering correctly the feat is called dual strike.
Meep222
01-30-08, 08:31 PM Doesn't rapid reload knock it down to a free action to reload? So in theory, you could do a shuffle with the weapons and reload all quick-like.
VulcanStormwrath
01-30-08, 08:47 PM unfortunately the eager enchantment can only be put on melee weapons.

The Crystal would still work though, also makes the crossbows cheaper. And with Exit Wounds in a crowd of low AC opponents it's like having dozens of attacks per round.
ToastedAmphibian
01-31-08, 05:33 PM Hehe, Sahuagin with 4x quickloading crossbows. Heavy Weapons guy of the sea floor. And he still has 2 talons and a Bite he can hit you with if you try to close.
Fallenangel359
01-31-08, 06:47 PM self reloading handcrossbow from minitures handbook combined with quickloading enhancement.

This will allow you to reload, as a non-action, 100 shots each hand, before you need a hand to reload.

Its +4k and a +1 enhancement, but it can be worth it, if you for example say... use the 200 bolt capacity to store spellstoring arrows, and do it as a twf caster :P
ZiggZagg
01-31-08, 07:09 PM Where in the Versatile Combatant feat does it say that you can break up your iteritive attacks between the two weapons?
StevenO
02-01-08, 01:14 AM Where is this Versatile Combatant feat? As far as I know ANY character can break up their itterative attacks between multiple weapons. If you have a +16 BAB you could attack with one weapon at +16, drop it and quickdraw another for the attack a +11, and repreat the process for +6 and +1 as well. If you have another weapon in hand you don't need to drop it and could just chose to use it instead.
Bopple
02-01-08, 06:58 AM You can separately reload and shoot two hand x-bows with a pair of Gloves of Storing on.
Obsidianjaerc
02-01-08, 11:31 AM Where is this Versatile Combatant feat?

Drow of the Underdark.
Voran
02-01-08, 06:42 PM Wow. It's totally time for me to make a John Woo character, running down hallways, dual crossbows blazing. :ayyyy!:

Hm would the doves count as a swarm?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
grok_grok 01-29-08, 05:32 PM	Is it possible to use to handcrossbows for TWF. THe problem I see happening is when you reload. What happens when you have multiple attacks and you have rapid reload, can you get your full attack your can you only fire off a bolt from each hand crossbow and then have to stop your attack and reload?
jaelis 01-29-08, 06:19 PM	Yes, it doesn't really work. There's an autoloading magical enhancement of some kind, I forget where. Another possibility is to carry several loaded crossbows and use quickdraw.
StevenO 01-29-08, 06:24 PM	You can use TWF with crossbows (although the bigger ones have some severe drawbacks) but as you note you run into some problems when it comes time to reload. Rapid Reload lets you reload at a faster rate but it doesn't negate the need for two hands to do so. Because you need two hands to load you could start TWF with crossbows but would have to drop one (a free action) to reload the other. There may be a magic item property someplace that will automatically load and ready a crossbow. I don't know where it may be but if you find it you could then fire crossbow with both hands without needing to drop one to reload.
Orenmir 01-29-08, 06:31 PM	Thri-Kreen... problem solved! :P
ToastedAmphibian 01-29-08, 07:05 PM	Thri-Kreen... problem solved! :P Multi weapon Fighting with crossbows? Seriously, if two are better than one...
VulcanStormwrath 01-29-08, 07:17 PM	Quickloading stores 100 bolts before you need to reload and if you've loaded different ones the one you choose is loaded next. Versatile Combatant allows you to fight with a Rapier in one hand and a Hand Crossbow in the other, treats you as having TWF, allows you to split your iterative attacks amongst the2 weapons as you choose, and allows you to use a hand crossbow in melee without penalties and without giving up attacks of opportunity. Combine with Weapon Finesse to let Dex determine both melee and ranged and you're a nightmare. Put the Eager quality or Crystal of Calling on either to allow you to Quickdraw one or both. Or take TWF with 2 Eager Quickloading Hand Crossbows or 2 Quickloading with the Crystal. Add the Exit Wounds quality for real nastiness and to boost your damage output. Keep up the TWF tree and take some Shotfeats and you've got Dante.
Drackthor 01-29-08, 08:00 PM	Quickloading stores 100 bolts before you need to reload and if you've loaded different ones the one you choose is loaded next. Versatile Combatant allows you to fight with a Rapier in one hand and a Hand Crossbow in the other, treats you as having TWF, allows you to split your iterative attacks amongst the2 weapons as you choose, and allows you to use a hand crossbow in melee without penalties and without giving up attacks of opportunity. Combine with Weapon Finesse to let Dex determine both melee and ranged and you're a nightmare. Put the Eager quality or Crystal of Calling on either to allow you to Quickdraw one or both. Or take TWF with 2 Eager Quickloading Hand Crossbows or 2 Quickloading with the Crystal. Add the Exit Wounds quality for real nastiness and to boost your damage output. Keep up the TWF tree and take some Shotfeats and you've got Dante. Wow. It's totally time for me to make a John Woo character, running down hallways, dual crossbows blazing. :ayyyy!:
tyrecian 01-29-08, 09:42 PM	while all this is true, sometimes it pays off anyways without magical craziness. The idea is when a rogue is hidden and is granted a partial action, within 30'. Hand X-bows are already poisoned and ready to be used. He uses his 2wf and gets sneak attack 2x to his opponent as well as poison. Hoping he wins initiative, he can draw weapons as he moves (or quickdraw and charge) for 4x SA damage and potentially poison, b4 the combat begins in earnest for the party (assuming he opens combat with ambush PA and then beats all others in init, not too hard for most of the rogues in my games). I have seen this used to bring down an unwary monster while the pally and wizzy dawdle with its henchies.
StevenO 01-29-08, 11:48 PM	Sorry tyrecian but it doesn't quite work as you state. If you get surprise you can't make a full attack which means you couldn't fire a weapon in each hand anyway. Surprise limits a character to standard actions. Now if you win initiative the following turn you could stand there and make a full attack but moving in will take your move action and again prevent you from taking the full attack action you need to use two weapons. That's not to say that having a loaded hand crossbow in one hand and a weapon in the other is useless. While a thrown weapon can often work just as well having that crossbow in hand lets the rogue make that surprise round attack that they may normally spend moving into position. After initiative is rolled having a melee weapon ready either gives them options if an enemy moves on them or allows them to move in for a second SA.
McPoyo 01-30-08, 12:34 PM	Isn't there a feat in the CAdv that lets you get off one attack with each weapon as a standard action? I might be remembering that wrong. If not, it works then. Alternatively, burn an Action point and do it :P
blade265 01-30-08, 12:35 PM	There are also the repeating crossbows the the player hand book.
jaelis 01-30-08, 01:27 PM	There are also the repeating crossbows the the player hand book. They still take two hands to reload though.
McPoyo 01-30-08, 02:09 PM	Two hands to reload once every 5 shots :)
Ivellius 01-30-08, 02:17 PM	And two hands to use the repeating lever, too. :D
StevenO 01-30-08, 02:46 PM	I do believe the Repeating Crossbow at least spares you the possible AoO each time you work the level as opposed to reloading a normal Xbow.
McPoyo 01-30-08, 03:15 PM	And two hands to use the repeating lever, too. :D Good point...Hmm...
kimura121 01-30-08, 03:26 PM	unfortunately the eager enchantment can only be put on melee weapons.
tyrecian 01-30-08, 06:28 PM	The two Xbow attack must have come into play during the first full attack after partial, and then the enemy must have been within 5' after the first round but flanking with another PC... ack i butcherred that example. I just remember a PC firing 2 hand Xbows and hitting hard with SA and poison and then somehow closing... :( thanks fer catching that
BugHunter 01-30-08, 08:25 PM	Isn't there a feat in the CAdv that lets you get off one attack with each weapon as a standard action? I might be remembering that wrong. If not, it works then. Alternatively, burn an Action point and do it :P You are remembering correctly the feat is called dual strike.
Meep222 01-30-08, 08:31 PM	Doesn't rapid reload knock it down to a free action to reload? So in theory, you could do a shuffle with the weapons and reload all quick-like.
VulcanStormwrath 01-30-08, 08:47 PM	unfortunately the eager enchantment can only be put on melee weapons. The Crystal would still work though, also makes the crossbows cheaper. And with Exit Wounds in a crowd of low AC opponents it's like having dozens of attacks per round.
ToastedAmphibian 01-31-08, 05:33 PM	Hehe, Sahuagin with 4x quickloading crossbows. Heavy Weapons guy of the sea floor. And he still has 2 talons and a Bite he can hit you with if you try to close.
Fallenangel359 01-31-08, 06:47 PM	self reloading handcrossbow from minitures handbook combined with quickloading enhancement. This will allow you to reload, as a non-action, 100 shots each hand, before you need a hand to reload. Its +4k and a +1 enhancement, but it can be worth it, if you for example say... use the 200 bolt capacity to store spellstoring arrows, and do it as a twf caster :P
ZiggZagg 01-31-08, 07:09 PM	Where in the Versatile Combatant feat does it say that you can break up your iteritive attacks between the two weapons?
StevenO 02-01-08, 01:14 AM	Where is this Versatile Combatant feat? As far as I know ANY character can break up their itterative attacks between multiple weapons. If you have a +16 BAB you could attack with one weapon at +16, drop it and quickdraw another for the attack a +11, and repreat the process for +6 and +1 as well. If you have another weapon in hand you don't need to drop it and could just chose to use it instead.
Bopple 02-01-08, 06:58 AM	You can separately reload and shoot two hand x-bows with a pair of Gloves of Storing on.
Obsidianjaerc 02-01-08, 11:31 AM	Where is this Versatile Combatant feat? Drow of the Underdark.
Voran 02-01-08, 06:42 PM	Wow. It's totally time for me to make a John Woo character, running down hallways, dual crossbows blazing. :ayyyy!: Hm would the doves count as a swarm?