Twin Spell + Repeat Spell? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Twin Spell + Repeat Spell? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Lyndis
03-21-08, 02:21 AM If you prepare for example a Magic Missile spell with the Twin and Repeat metamagic, will the MM that is cats automatically next turn also be Twinned?
Merestil Haye
03-21-08, 07:25 AM If you prepare for example a Magic Missile spell with the Twin and Repeat metamagic, will the MM that is cats automatically next turn also be Twinned?Yes, they will.

When working out the interaction of rules, specific rules override more general rules and exceptions override general and specific rules.

There is nothing in the sections of rules that apply to feats generally, or metamagic feats specifically, that restricts the interaction of metamagic feats. Therefore the only restrictions will be found in specific feats, and apply only to specific combinations mentioned. Since neither feat mentions restrictions when combined with the other, there are none.
JamesMaissen
03-21-08, 10:31 AM If you prepare for example a Magic Missile spell with the Twin and Repeat metamagic, will the MM that is cats automatically next turn also be Twinned?

Yes. DMs may be leery of 'stacking' such things and might even balk at it going to things like empower & maximize's interaction.

However when you consider an empowered widened fireball (not that anyone pays for widen) it starts to become clear that you shouldn't do more damage in the center than the edges. But when you then replace widen with sculpt and ask where the empowered bits are you will see that they need to fully combine.

As much as a heightened empowered fireball would not let you save for half on the additional damage if you would have made the save without the heighten.

-James
SALDAR
03-21-08, 04:17 PM No. When using these feats in conjunction you are applying each feat to the spell and not to the other feat, unless the feat specifies that it can be altered by or alters the effect of another feat. Using the Maximize and Empower example provided you would apply each seperately since nothing in either feat's description specifies that it alters another feat. A 10d6 fireball would do 60 points from Maximize plus 1/2 of what is rolled on 10d6 from Empower. You would not get 60 points from Maximize plus 30 points from Empower since Empower is applied to the fireball spell and not to the Maximize Spell feat. Your Twin Repeat MM would take affect twice on the round you cast it (Twin Spell) and then once at the beginning of your next turn (Repeat Spell). You are repeating the Magic Missile spell not Twin Spell feat.

It has been some time since I have been on the boards but when last I was here the rules told you what you can do within the game. If the rules don't specify that you can do it then it is a safe bet that you can't.
Merestil Haye
03-21-08, 04:43 PM Here's a relevant FAQ.If my wizard applies Energy Admixture (Complete Arcane, page 78) and Maximize Spell to the same spell, does he get a spell that deals double its maximized damage (maximum normal damage in two different energy types)? If he also applied the Twin Spell feat (Complete Arcane, page 84) to the same spell would it duplicate the entire effect?
Yes and yes. Assuming your character can cast 13th-level spells—the slot required by a 2nd-level spell affected by these metamagic feats—a scorching ray so affected would create two sets of three rays each, with each ray dealing 24 points of fire damage (4d6, maximized) and 24 points of a second energy type (as appropriate for your Energy Substitution feat), for a grand total of 288 points of damage . . . assuming all six rays hit their target.When you apply multiple metamagics to one spell, each feat affects the entirety of the spell unless a rule specific to the feat combination explicitly states otherwise.
Lyndis
03-21-08, 10:32 PM So let's say I have an Incantatrix with these feats: Energy Admixture (acid), Maximize Spell, Empower Spell, Twin Spell and apply it all to an Orb of Fire, she will do...

2 balls of (90 + (15d6)/2) fire damage + (90 + (15d6)/2) acid damage for a grand total of 360 + 2 x (15d6) = 360 + average of 90ish = 450 damage in one spell?
JamesMaissen
03-22-08, 12:14 AM No. When using these feats in conjunction you are applying each feat to the spell and not to the other feat, unless the feat specifies that it can be altered by or alters the effect of another feat. Using the Maximize and Empower example provided you would apply each seperately since nothing in either feat's description specifies that it alters another feat. A 10d6 fireball would do 60 points from Maximize plus 1/2 of what is rolled on 10d6 from Empower. You would not get 60 points from Maximize plus 30 points from Empower since Empower is applied to the fireball spell and not to the Maximize Spell feat. Your Twin Repeat MM would take affect twice on the round you cast it (Twin Spell) and then once at the beginning of your next turn (Repeat Spell). You are repeating the Magic Missile spell not Twin Spell feat.

It has been some time since I have been on the boards but when last I was here the rules told you what you can do within the game. If the rules don't specify that you can do it then it is a safe bet that you can't.

Go to my post above...

Now rule how a widened fireball and a sculpted fireball will do damage when they are also empowered.

-James
dman11235
03-22-08, 12:17 AM Yes. You can apply bonuses in any order you want. And you are using Arcane Thesis for that, right? That is one fun feat. Even though with the feat you're still at a level 13 spell slot. Anyway, SALDAR is wrong. You can twin it and then repeat it, thus the second casting is twinnedd as well.
Lyndis
03-22-08, 12:53 AM Arcane thesis + Metamagic School Focus + Improved Metamagic (Incantatrix capstone ability) = -3 level cost for each metamagic. Maximize is free. Empower is free. Energy Admixture and Twin Spell are +1 each. 6th level spell slot. Can do this once per day as a 6th level slot. Afterwards, Maximize becomes +1, and Twin Spell and Energy Admixture becomes +2 each, so this would become a 9th level slot.
Avatar of Kokusho
03-22-08, 11:41 AM This is why I love incantatrix so much. :D

Point is, yes, they stack, yes, it deals a lot of damage, and yes, you will be incredibly sad if that spell runs into a Spell Turning.
aelryinth
03-22-08, 11:53 AM SALDAR - You're going back to the interaction of empower and maximize.

It's been errata'd that those are the only two metamagic feats that do not interact with one another (and why, nobody knows - mathematically, they should).

I held to the belief that damage feats did not interact the way other metamagic feats did, until Andy Collins explicitly addressed the issue (probably in some small part to me protesting on his message board).

WoTC was very precise on this...feats affect the whole of the spell, including the other feats. Empower/Maximize is now the exception, not the rule. From a guidebook standard, this makes sense, actually - otherwise you'd have to issue a "this feat does not interact with any other damage affecting feat unless noted." or somesuch ruling.

So, yes, you'd get a Twinned Spell, Repeated as a Twinned Spell in the next round.

===Aelryinth
dman11235
03-22-08, 05:31 PM Incantatrix is only -1 to the total spell level, not each MM feat. And MM school focus is as well, and is 3/day. The Incantatrix is 3+int per day I believe. Arcane Thesis is the only thing there that subtracts 1/MM feat.
Merestil Haye
03-22-08, 06:05 PM Incantatrix is only -1 to the total spell level, not each MM feat. And MM school focus is as well, and is 3/day. The Incantatrix is 3+int per day I believe. Arcane Thesis is the only thing there that subtracts 1/MM feat.The exact phrasing of the Incantatrix ability is "Whenever she uses a metamagic feat," not "Whenever she applies metamagic feats to a spell." And there is no use/day limit.

With Metamagic School Focus I'm not certain whether it applies only once or to each feat. The exact phrasing is "you may reduce by one level the cost of a metamagic feat applied to a spell of the chosen school." You're correct on the use limit though.

On reflection, I agree that it probably means that each daily use applies to one metamagic feat applied to one spell. However, that does not prevent you from getting multiple reductions on the same spell, but each such reduction is one of the daily uses.
Lyndis
03-22-08, 06:18 PM Correct. Meta school focus is 3/day. I apply it to each metamagic feat I use when I prepare the spell in my slot. And as far as I'm reaidng, the capstone for Incantatrix says whenever I apply a metamagic feat, not per spell.
Avatar of Kokusho
03-22-08, 08:48 PM The capstone ability for the incantatrix functions just like the epic feat Improved Metamagic; it grants a cost reduction of -1 for each metamagic feat to a minimum of 1. Thus, a fireball prepared with maximize and energy admixture (acid) is only a 8th level spell slot.
Lyndis
03-22-08, 08:57 PM I wonder if the feat and the ability stacks...
Avatar of Kokusho
03-22-08, 09:10 PM It does.:D Unless, that is, your DM gets sick of your virtually free metamagic. Mine just throws creatures immune to every element in all of creation.
Lyndis
03-22-08, 09:35 PM Are they also immune to level drain ala Enervation?
BobSutan
03-22-08, 10:06 PM Here's a relevant FAQ.When you apply multiple metamagics to one spell, each feat affects the entirety of the spell unless a rule specific to the feat combination explicitly states otherwise.

/thread

Bottom line: each metamagic feat raises the spell slot requirement. If you have slots to burn and you want to continue tacking on metamagic effects, the knock yourself out (provided you have the required spell level slot needed).
Avatar of Kokusho
03-22-08, 10:14 PM Are they also immune to level drain ala Enervation?

My incantatrix is disgustingly epic, so I have to say yes, yes they are. Damned abominations.:(
dman11235
03-22-08, 10:15 PM Dude: Searing Spell and Piercing Cold. Ignore resistance and deal half damage to those immune. Take Frostmage for a slightly better piercing cold (ignores immunity garnered through items and spells). With Arcane Thesis, it's a +0 adjustment! And tack on Energy substitution for a -1 adjusment! Do that 4 times, ending with cold, after applying Fiery and Blistering (takes effect in that order...), and then tack on as many others as you can. Twin second to last and repeat last. Profit.

And if that is true, my two incantatrixs' I'm starting to play will be very happy. One of them is doing Arcane Thesis on Scorching Ray and the other just a cold specialist.

EDIT: I forgot about Energy Affinity that does the exact same thing as Energy Sub, but is a different feat! Tack that on 4 times for another -4. It's in Miniatures Handbook.
Lyndis
03-22-08, 10:30 PM I, and no DM I know, would allow Arcane thesis to reduce a particular metamagic down to -1 to counteract other metamagics. If your DM allows it, then all the power to you, but expect to be hit with a Split Ray, Twinned, Maximizedm Empowered Enervation on a regular basis after being hit by a quickened Twinned Reaving Dispel. And expect encounering multiple spellcasters whose sole job is to ready an action to counter your spells.
Avatar of Kokusho
03-22-08, 10:34 PM My DM banned that ability, as he said that only extremely special things should be able to pierce immunity granted naturally. Bleh.

Any DM who allows Arcane Thesis or anything else to reduce metamagic costs into the negatives is either insane or putting you up against an abjurer/Master Specialist (Abj)/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil/Archmage with Mastery of Counterspelling.

You deserve what you get in that instance. You want it cheap, then grow high enough in level to do it.

I prefer intensified quickened energy drains, myself. :p
Tedronai
03-22-08, 10:39 PM Dude: Searing Spell and Piercing Cold. Ignore resistance and deal half damage to those immune. Take Frostmage for a slightly better piercing cold (ignores immunity garnered through items and spells). With Arcane Thesis, it's a +0 adjustment! And tack on Energy substitution for a -1 adjusment! Do that 4 times, ending with cold, after applying Fiery and Blistering (takes effect in that order...), and then tack on as many others as you can. Twin second to last and repeat last. Profit.

And if that is true, my two incantatrixs' I'm starting to play will be very happy. One of them is doing Arcane Thesis on Scorching Ray and the other just a cold specialist.

EDIT: I forgot about Energy Affinity that does the exact same thing as Energy Sub, but is a different feat! Tack that on 4 times for another -4. It's in Miniatures Handbook.

Considering that you'll have to take each of those Substitution and Affinity feats seperately (that's 8 feats right there, just how epic are you?), I might suggest you'll be better off taking a different route.
Nezkrul
03-22-08, 11:51 PM if you want to know how sick metamagic can be, RAW, ask me, and I'll pm you a build that is extremely sick.
Lyndis
03-22-08, 11:55 PM Why not just post it?
Nezkrul
03-23-08, 12:09 AM this isn't the forum nor the thread for a character build
dman11235
03-23-08, 01:17 AM Oh dear. It's still pertinent. Especially if it's about MM feats, since that's what this thread is about.

And yes, I know that it is silly and takes 8 MM feats for those alone, but I was just pointing out something silly. And I would limit AT to reducing each feat to a minimum of +0. I would never use that in play even if it was allowed. Just normal AT is fine by me (and feat un-intensive).
Nezkrul
03-23-08, 01:32 AM i can email the whole character sheet, but ill just paraphrase it here. please don't critique it on this thread, if needs be we can start a new one.

Warforged
Sorcerer 6 / Incantatrix 16 / Fighter 2 (taking 2nd racial sub for warforged) / Reforged 3

for anyone that frequents the CO boards, it's a cheeseforged build.

With this build and the right feat allocation, all of your metamagic feats are only +1 slot adjustment, including intensify spell and enhance spell, and you have access to 11th level spell slots.

It also utilizes Frostburn, for the Snowcasting feat, completely abuses the crap out of that feat, because there's a 1st level spell (or 0th level, not sure) called Summon Component, with which you can summon a handful of snow or ice to use for Snowcasting.

again, if you want to see the whole character sheet, pm me your email address.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lyndis 03-21-08, 02:21 AM	If you prepare for example a Magic Missile spell with the Twin and Repeat metamagic, will the MM that is cats automatically next turn also be Twinned?
Merestil Haye 03-21-08, 07:25 AM	If you prepare for example a Magic Missile spell with the Twin and Repeat metamagic, will the MM that is cats automatically next turn also be Twinned?Yes, they will. When working out the interaction of rules, specific rules override more general rules and exceptions override general and specific rules. There is nothing in the sections of rules that apply to feats generally, or metamagic feats specifically, that restricts the interaction of metamagic feats. Therefore the only restrictions will be found in specific feats, and apply only to specific combinations mentioned. Since neither feat mentions restrictions when combined with the other, there are none.
JamesMaissen 03-21-08, 10:31 AM	If you prepare for example a Magic Missile spell with the Twin and Repeat metamagic, will the MM that is cats automatically next turn also be Twinned? Yes. DMs may be leery of 'stacking' such things and might even balk at it going to things like empower & maximize's interaction. However when you consider an empowered widened fireball (not that anyone pays for widen) it starts to become clear that you shouldn't do more damage in the center than the edges. But when you then replace widen with sculpt and ask where the empowered bits are you will see that they need to fully combine. As much as a heightened empowered fireball would not let you save for half on the additional damage if you would have made the save without the heighten. -James
SALDAR 03-21-08, 04:17 PM	No. When using these feats in conjunction you are applying each feat to the spell and not to the other feat, unless the feat specifies that it can be altered by or alters the effect of another feat. Using the Maximize and Empower example provided you would apply each seperately since nothing in either feat's description specifies that it alters another feat. A 10d6 fireball would do 60 points from Maximize plus 1/2 of what is rolled on 10d6 from Empower. You would not get 60 points from Maximize plus 30 points from Empower since Empower is applied to the fireball spell and not to the Maximize Spell feat. Your Twin Repeat MM would take affect twice on the round you cast it (Twin Spell) and then once at the beginning of your next turn (Repeat Spell). You are repeating the Magic Missile spell not Twin Spell feat. It has been some time since I have been on the boards but when last I was here the rules told you what you can do within the game. If the rules don't specify that you can do it then it is a safe bet that you can't.
Merestil Haye 03-21-08, 04:43 PM	Here's a relevant FAQ.If my wizard applies Energy Admixture (Complete Arcane, page 78) and Maximize Spell to the same spell, does he get a spell that deals double its maximized damage (maximum normal damage in two different energy types)? If he also applied the Twin Spell feat (Complete Arcane, page 84) to the same spell would it duplicate the entire effect? Yes and yes. Assuming your character can cast 13th-level spells—the slot required by a 2nd-level spell affected by these metamagic feats—a scorching ray so affected would create two sets of three rays each, with each ray dealing 24 points of fire damage (4d6, maximized) and 24 points of a second energy type (as appropriate for your Energy Substitution feat), for a grand total of 288 points of damage . . . assuming all six rays hit their target.When you apply multiple metamagics to one spell, each feat affects the entirety of the spell unless a rule specific to the feat combination explicitly states otherwise.
Lyndis 03-21-08, 10:32 PM	So let's say I have an Incantatrix with these feats: Energy Admixture (acid), Maximize Spell, Empower Spell, Twin Spell and apply it all to an Orb of Fire, she will do... 2 balls of (90 + (15d6)/2) fire damage + (90 + (15d6)/2) acid damage for a grand total of 360 + 2 x (15d6) = 360 + average of 90ish = 450 damage in one spell?
JamesMaissen 03-22-08, 12:14 AM	No. When using these feats in conjunction you are applying each feat to the spell and not to the other feat, unless the feat specifies that it can be altered by or alters the effect of another feat. Using the Maximize and Empower example provided you would apply each seperately since nothing in either feat's description specifies that it alters another feat. A 10d6 fireball would do 60 points from Maximize plus 1/2 of what is rolled on 10d6 from Empower. You would not get 60 points from Maximize plus 30 points from Empower since Empower is applied to the fireball spell and not to the Maximize Spell feat. Your Twin Repeat MM would take affect twice on the round you cast it (Twin Spell) and then once at the beginning of your next turn (Repeat Spell). You are repeating the Magic Missile spell not Twin Spell feat. It has been some time since I have been on the boards but when last I was here the rules told you what you can do within the game. If the rules don't specify that you can do it then it is a safe bet that you can't. Go to my post above... Now rule how a widened fireball and a sculpted fireball will do damage when they are also empowered. -James
dman11235 03-22-08, 12:17 AM	Yes. You can apply bonuses in any order you want. And you are using Arcane Thesis for that, right? That is one fun feat. Even though with the feat you're still at a level 13 spell slot. Anyway, SALDAR is wrong. You can twin it and then repeat it, thus the second casting is twinnedd as well.
Lyndis 03-22-08, 12:53 AM	Arcane thesis + Metamagic School Focus + Improved Metamagic (Incantatrix capstone ability) = -3 level cost for each metamagic. Maximize is free. Empower is free. Energy Admixture and Twin Spell are +1 each. 6th level spell slot. Can do this once per day as a 6th level slot. Afterwards, Maximize becomes +1, and Twin Spell and Energy Admixture becomes +2 each, so this would become a 9th level slot.
Avatar of Kokusho 03-22-08, 11:41 AM	This is why I love incantatrix so much. :D Point is, yes, they stack, yes, it deals a lot of damage, and yes, you will be incredibly sad if that spell runs into a Spell Turning.
aelryinth 03-22-08, 11:53 AM	SALDAR - You're going back to the interaction of empower and maximize. It's been errata'd that those are the only two metamagic feats that do not interact with one another (and why, nobody knows - mathematically, they should). I held to the belief that damage feats did not interact the way other metamagic feats did, until Andy Collins explicitly addressed the issue (probably in some small part to me protesting on his message board). WoTC was very precise on this...feats affect the whole of the spell, including the other feats. Empower/Maximize is now the exception, not the rule. From a guidebook standard, this makes sense, actually - otherwise you'd have to issue a "this feat does not interact with any other damage affecting feat unless noted." or somesuch ruling. So, yes, you'd get a Twinned Spell, Repeated as a Twinned Spell in the next round. ===Aelryinth
dman11235 03-22-08, 05:31 PM	Incantatrix is only -1 to the total spell level, not each MM feat. And MM school focus is as well, and is 3/day. The Incantatrix is 3+int per day I believe. Arcane Thesis is the only thing there that subtracts 1/MM feat.
Merestil Haye 03-22-08, 06:05 PM	Incantatrix is only -1 to the total spell level, not each MM feat. And MM school focus is as well, and is 3/day. The Incantatrix is 3+int per day I believe. Arcane Thesis is the only thing there that subtracts 1/MM feat.The exact phrasing of the Incantatrix ability is "Whenever she uses a metamagic feat," not "Whenever she applies metamagic feats to a spell." And there is no use/day limit. With Metamagic School Focus I'm not certain whether it applies only once or to each feat. The exact phrasing is "you may reduce by one level the cost of a metamagic feat applied to a spell of the chosen school." You're correct on the use limit though. On reflection, I agree that it probably means that each daily use applies to one metamagic feat applied to one spell. However, that does not prevent you from getting multiple reductions on the same spell, but each such reduction is one of the daily uses.
Lyndis 03-22-08, 06:18 PM	Correct. Meta school focus is 3/day. I apply it to each metamagic feat I use when I prepare the spell in my slot. And as far as I'm reaidng, the capstone for Incantatrix says whenever I apply a metamagic feat, not per spell.
Avatar of Kokusho 03-22-08, 08:48 PM	The capstone ability for the incantatrix functions just like the epic feat Improved Metamagic; it grants a cost reduction of -1 for each metamagic feat to a minimum of 1. Thus, a fireball prepared with maximize and energy admixture (acid) is only a 8th level spell slot.
Lyndis 03-22-08, 08:57 PM	I wonder if the feat and the ability stacks...
Avatar of Kokusho 03-22-08, 09:10 PM	It does.:D Unless, that is, your DM gets sick of your virtually free metamagic. Mine just throws creatures immune to every element in all of creation.
Lyndis 03-22-08, 09:35 PM	Are they also immune to level drain ala Enervation?
BobSutan 03-22-08, 10:06 PM	Here's a relevant FAQ.When you apply multiple metamagics to one spell, each feat affects the entirety of the spell unless a rule specific to the feat combination explicitly states otherwise. /thread Bottom line: each metamagic feat raises the spell slot requirement. If you have slots to burn and you want to continue tacking on metamagic effects, the knock yourself out (provided you have the required spell level slot needed).
Avatar of Kokusho 03-22-08, 10:14 PM	Are they also immune to level drain ala Enervation? My incantatrix is disgustingly epic, so I have to say yes, yes they are. Damned abominations.:(
dman11235 03-22-08, 10:15 PM	Dude: Searing Spell and Piercing Cold. Ignore resistance and deal half damage to those immune. Take Frostmage for a slightly better piercing cold (ignores immunity garnered through items and spells). With Arcane Thesis, it's a +0 adjustment! And tack on Energy substitution for a -1 adjusment! Do that 4 times, ending with cold, after applying Fiery and Blistering (takes effect in that order...), and then tack on as many others as you can. Twin second to last and repeat last. Profit. And if that is true, my two incantatrixs' I'm starting to play will be very happy. One of them is doing Arcane Thesis on Scorching Ray and the other just a cold specialist. EDIT: I forgot about Energy Affinity that does the exact same thing as Energy Sub, but is a different feat! Tack that on 4 times for another -4. It's in Miniatures Handbook.
Lyndis 03-22-08, 10:30 PM	I, and no DM I know, would allow Arcane thesis to reduce a particular metamagic down to -1 to counteract other metamagics. If your DM allows it, then all the power to you, but expect to be hit with a Split Ray, Twinned, Maximizedm Empowered Enervation on a regular basis after being hit by a quickened Twinned Reaving Dispel. And expect encounering multiple spellcasters whose sole job is to ready an action to counter your spells.
Avatar of Kokusho 03-22-08, 10:34 PM	My DM banned that ability, as he said that only extremely special things should be able to pierce immunity granted naturally. Bleh. Any DM who allows Arcane Thesis or anything else to reduce metamagic costs into the negatives is either insane or putting you up against an abjurer/Master Specialist (Abj)/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil/Archmage with Mastery of Counterspelling. You deserve what you get in that instance. You want it cheap, then grow high enough in level to do it. I prefer intensified quickened energy drains, myself. :p
Tedronai 03-22-08, 10:39 PM	Dude: Searing Spell and Piercing Cold. Ignore resistance and deal half damage to those immune. Take Frostmage for a slightly better piercing cold (ignores immunity garnered through items and spells). With Arcane Thesis, it's a +0 adjustment! And tack on Energy substitution for a -1 adjusment! Do that 4 times, ending with cold, after applying Fiery and Blistering (takes effect in that order...), and then tack on as many others as you can. Twin second to last and repeat last. Profit. And if that is true, my two incantatrixs' I'm starting to play will be very happy. One of them is doing Arcane Thesis on Scorching Ray and the other just a cold specialist. EDIT: I forgot about Energy Affinity that does the exact same thing as Energy Sub, but is a different feat! Tack that on 4 times for another -4. It's in Miniatures Handbook. Considering that you'll have to take each of those Substitution and Affinity feats seperately (that's 8 feats right there, just how epic are you?), I might suggest you'll be better off taking a different route.
Nezkrul 03-22-08, 11:51 PM	if you want to know how sick metamagic can be, RAW, ask me, and I'll pm you a build that is extremely sick.
Lyndis 03-22-08, 11:55 PM	Why not just post it?
Nezkrul 03-23-08, 12:09 AM	this isn't the forum nor the thread for a character build
dman11235 03-23-08, 01:17 AM	Oh dear. It's still pertinent. Especially if it's about MM feats, since that's what this thread is about. And yes, I know that it is silly and takes 8 MM feats for those alone, but I was just pointing out something silly. And I would limit AT to reducing each feat to a minimum of +0. I would never use that in play even if it was allowed. Just normal AT is fine by me (and feat un-intensive).
Nezkrul 03-23-08, 01:32 AM	i can email the whole character sheet, but ill just paraphrase it here. please don't critique it on this thread, if needs be we can start a new one. Warforged Sorcerer 6 / Incantatrix 16 / Fighter 2 (taking 2nd racial sub for warforged) / Reforged 3 for anyone that frequents the CO boards, it's a cheeseforged build. With this build and the right feat allocation, all of your metamagic feats are only +1 slot adjustment, including intensify spell and enhance spell, and you have access to 11th level spell slots. It also utilizes Frostburn, for the Snowcasting feat, completely abuses the crap out of that feat, because there's a 1st level spell (or 0th level, not sure) called Summon Component, with which you can summon a handful of snow or ice to use for Snowcasting. again, if you want to see the whole character sheet, pm me your email address.