Two handed Weapons & Two weapon fighting & Power Attack [Archive] - Wizards Community

Two handed Weapons & Two weapon fighting & Power Attack [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Screamer2000
03-05-07, 12:59 PM Hi all,

I was looking at getting a Barbarian/ranger character witha huge sword. With the ranger getting the two weapon fighting feat, I was looking into using the two-handed two-bladed sword and got very confused when you apply power attack to it.

Two weapon fighting deals
1) normal str modofier to first hand attack
2) half str modifer to secondary hand attack

Happy with this, therefor if I have a Str 18 its +4 dam / +2 dam.

Two handed weapons are 1.5x str modifier. So this would be normally an additional +2 dam with a greatsword

Ss strength 18 double handed = +6 dam.

So what happens when you have a double handed double ended weapon? A quarter staff for example?
Do I get +6 dam / +4 dam

+6 = 1.5xstr
+4 = 1.5xstr - 0.5x str

Help?

P.S. What then happens with power attack? Double handed weapons get double the bonus damage!
Merestil Haye
03-05-07, 01:16 PM Hi all,

I was looking at getting a Barbarian/ranger character witha huge sword. With the ranger getting the two weapon fighting feat, I was looking into using the two-handed two-bladed sword and got very confused when you apply power attack to it.

Two weapon fighting deals
1) normal str modofier to first hand attack
2) half str modifer to secondary hand attack

Happy with this, therefor if I have a Str 18 its +4 dam / +2 dam.

Two handed weapons are 1.5x str modifier. So this would be normally an additional +2 dam with a greatsword

Ss strength 18 double handed = +6 dam.So far, so good.

So what happens when you have a double handed double ended weapon? A quarter staff for example?
Do I get +6 dam / +4 damWhat you get is dependant on whether you decide to use the quarterstaff as a double weapon (attacking with both ends) or as a two-handed weapon.

If you decide to use it as a two-handed weapon, you get 1½ * Str bonus. If you decide to power Attack you get an additional +2 bonus to damage for each -1 penalty on attack rolls.

If you decide to use it as a double weapon, you get regular strength damage bonus on one head and ½ Str damage bonus on the off-hand head - the total Str damage bonus for fighting with two hands is 1½ times, whether you get it all with 1 weapon or use 2. Remember that in this case you have to take 2-weapon fighting penalties on the attack rolls.

If you also use power attack you get a +1 bonus on damage rolls with the on-hand end for each -1 penalty on attack rolls, and nothing with the off-hand head (although you still take the attack roll penalty to all attacks you make in the round, on-hand and off-hand ends).
Screamer2000
03-05-07, 01:45 PM ahh thank you very much.

Therefore in conclusion you are saying that you can use two handed double ended weapons as either

1)double handed weapons
OR
2) two ended weapon

not both. I didn't see this in the rules, it does make things simple, but then what is the point of the double ended two handed sword? And it looks like you would never power attack with a double ended weapon.
kjenks
03-05-07, 02:40 PM Try this instead for your bbn/rgr: Wield a two-handed weapon like a greatsword, getting 2-for-1 on Power Attack. Then use your unarmed strike as your light, off-hand weapon, getting 1-for-1 on Power Attack.

The Improved Unarmed Strike feat will help, or take a level or two of monk before you switch to barbarian.

If you're hitting all the time with full Power Attack (= your BAB) and you want to eke out a little more damage, throw in the TWF with unarmed strike.

According to the FAQ, you can do this style of TWF with a two-handed weapon and armor spikes, but you can't Power Attack with armor spikes, so I like unarmed strike instead.

But you won't get a lot more damage output with this style. Instead of taking a -2 penalty on all attacks to do this TWF schtick, you're better off using 2 more points of Power Attack for +4 damage on your two-handed weapon.
Merestil Haye
03-05-07, 02:43 PM ahh thank you very much.

Therefore in conclusion you are saying that you can use two handed double ended weapons as either

1)double handed weapons
OR
2) two ended weapon

not both. I didn't see this in the rules, it does make things simple, but then what is the point of the double ended two handed sword? And it looks like you would never power attack with a double ended weapon.The main point of the two-bladed sword would be to have a pair of swords moderately enchanted with powers focussed on specific groups of enemies - for example a +1 Magebane Wounding blade | +1 Constructbane Speed weapon costs 82,600 plus the cost of the sword; a +1 Magebane Constructbane Speed Wounding sword costs 128,300gp plus the cost of the sword. Get your Cleric or Wizard buddy to put GMW on it for a +3 or higher bonus (we're looking at 15th level or higher to acquire either of these things). The smaller damage dice are not terribly significant as most damage should be coming from the modifiers anyway. The only other cost is the proficiency feat for the exotic weapon.

No, you don't use power attack if wielding a light weapon in the off-hand (or a double weapon). You want PA and two weapons, fight with two one-handed weapons (which gives +1 damage bonus per point of penalty on attack rolls) for both weapons.

Two-weapon fighting is a feat-intensive chain, thus requires either a commitment to Ranger, the fighter's bonus feats or another reason to take the chain, such as the rogue's sneak attack.
Nom
03-05-07, 06:11 PM Therefore in conclusion you are saying that you can use two handed double ended weapons as either

1)double handed weapons
OR
2) two ended weapon

not both. I didn't see this in the rules, it does make things simpleIt's on Player's Handbook page 113, up the top.

Note that you can use any one- or two-handed melee weapon two handed, for +1.5* Str bonus. With two-handed weapons, you don't get a choice.

but then what is the point of the double ended two handed sword?Flexibility.

It's often advantageous to use the same weapon in each hand, because you can then apply feats like Weapon Focus to both weapons. But the difference in damage between two shortswords (1d6, 1d6) and a two-bladed sword (1d8/1d8) is only one point per die, and the shortswords are finessable. So the damage difference is minor.

The main advantage of the double weapon is you can choose to TWF or fight two-handed as is convenient. If you'll only get a single attack (typically because you moved) then you can use both hands for improved Str to damage. If you can afford to full attack then you can TWF without changing weapons.

Double weapons are mainly useful for strong characters. If you don't have the Str to take advantage of the *1.5 Str bonus then you're probably better off with a pair of finessable weapons.
And it looks like you would never power attack with a double ended weapon.In TWF mode, no. In two-handed mode, sure.
jadehawk
03-06-07, 01:11 PM It's on Player's Handbook page 113, up the top.

Note that you can use any one- or two-handed melee weapon two handed, for +1.5* Str bonus. With two-handed weapons, you don't get a choice.

True, but for anyone not familiar with the weapon system it is important to indicate that a one-handed weapon is a category of weapon, not just any weapon you wield in one hand. Light weapon is another category; while you do wield light weapons one-handed they are not considered 'one-handed' weapons, so you may not two-hand them for the extra damage. They are sort of silly category names to be honest. Basically this is how it goes:

Light weapons: must be wielded one-handed, can reduce two-weapon fighting penalties by wielding this type in the offhand.

One-handed weapons: may be wielded one-handed, but can also be wielded two-handed to deal 1.5x str damage.

Two-handed: must be wielded two-handed, and so always deals 1.5x str damage.
Nom
03-06-07, 09:33 PM Agreed. It's legal to use "light weapons" two-handed, but it grants no benefit. I had originally mentioned "light weapons", but took it out, and didn't notice that this might cause confusion about whether "one-handed weapon" was a technical term or just any weapon wielded in one hand.
kjenks
03-06-07, 09:44 PM But there are two light weapons which can get the Power Attack damage bonus: natural weapons and unarmed strikes.
Nathreet
03-07-07, 02:04 AM Power attack bonus doesn't apply to light weapons, but the penalty still applies. The 2nd attack on a double weapon is always a light weapon.

It's almost always a bad idea to power attack when fighting with two weapons or when fighting with a double weapon.

You could fight with two weapons using a one handed (not light) weapon in your off hand. That would increase the TWF fighting penalty from -2 to -4. But if you have a strength of 26 or higher, it might be worth it. You'd gain 8 extra damage to half your attacks, while paying -2 AB to both attacks. 8 * 1/2 = 2 + 2. That's not any worse than power attack. Factor in the extra damage of the one handed weapon and it might be worth it even with a strength of 24 or 22.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Screamer2000 03-05-07, 12:59 PM	Hi all, I was looking at getting a Barbarian/ranger character witha huge sword. With the ranger getting the two weapon fighting feat, I was looking into using the two-handed two-bladed sword and got very confused when you apply power attack to it. Two weapon fighting deals 1) normal str modofier to first hand attack 2) half str modifer to secondary hand attack Happy with this, therefor if I have a Str 18 its +4 dam / +2 dam. Two handed weapons are 1.5x str modifier. So this would be normally an additional +2 dam with a greatsword Ss strength 18 double handed = +6 dam. So what happens when you have a double handed double ended weapon? A quarter staff for example? Do I get +6 dam / +4 dam +6 = 1.5xstr +4 = 1.5xstr - 0.5x str Help? P.S. What then happens with power attack? Double handed weapons get double the bonus damage!
Merestil Haye 03-05-07, 01:16 PM	Hi all, I was looking at getting a Barbarian/ranger character witha huge sword. With the ranger getting the two weapon fighting feat, I was looking into using the two-handed two-bladed sword and got very confused when you apply power attack to it. Two weapon fighting deals 1) normal str modofier to first hand attack 2) half str modifer to secondary hand attack Happy with this, therefor if I have a Str 18 its +4 dam / +2 dam. Two handed weapons are 1.5x str modifier. So this would be normally an additional +2 dam with a greatsword Ss strength 18 double handed = +6 dam.So far, so good. So what happens when you have a double handed double ended weapon? A quarter staff for example? Do I get +6 dam / +4 damWhat you get is dependant on whether you decide to use the quarterstaff as a double weapon (attacking with both ends) or as a two-handed weapon. If you decide to use it as a two-handed weapon, you get 1½ * Str bonus. If you decide to power Attack you get an additional +2 bonus to damage for each -1 penalty on attack rolls. If you decide to use it as a double weapon, you get regular strength damage bonus on one head and ½ Str damage bonus on the off-hand head - the total Str damage bonus for fighting with two hands is 1½ times, whether you get it all with 1 weapon or use 2. Remember that in this case you have to take 2-weapon fighting penalties on the attack rolls. If you also use power attack you get a +1 bonus on damage rolls with the on-hand end for each -1 penalty on attack rolls, and nothing with the off-hand head (although you still take the attack roll penalty to all attacks you make in the round, on-hand and off-hand ends).
Screamer2000 03-05-07, 01:45 PM	ahh thank you very much. Therefore in conclusion you are saying that you can use two handed double ended weapons as either 1)double handed weapons OR 2) two ended weapon not both. I didn't see this in the rules, it does make things simple, but then what is the point of the double ended two handed sword? And it looks like you would never power attack with a double ended weapon.
kjenks 03-05-07, 02:40 PM	Try this instead for your bbn/rgr: Wield a two-handed weapon like a greatsword, getting 2-for-1 on Power Attack. Then use your unarmed strike as your light, off-hand weapon, getting 1-for-1 on Power Attack. The Improved Unarmed Strike feat will help, or take a level or two of monk before you switch to barbarian. If you're hitting all the time with full Power Attack (= your BAB) and you want to eke out a little more damage, throw in the TWF with unarmed strike. According to the FAQ, you can do this style of TWF with a two-handed weapon and armor spikes, but you can't Power Attack with armor spikes, so I like unarmed strike instead. But you won't get a lot more damage output with this style. Instead of taking a -2 penalty on all attacks to do this TWF schtick, you're better off using 2 more points of Power Attack for +4 damage on your two-handed weapon.
Merestil Haye 03-05-07, 02:43 PM	ahh thank you very much. Therefore in conclusion you are saying that you can use two handed double ended weapons as either 1)double handed weapons OR 2) two ended weapon not both. I didn't see this in the rules, it does make things simple, but then what is the point of the double ended two handed sword? And it looks like you would never power attack with a double ended weapon.The main point of the two-bladed sword would be to have a pair of swords moderately enchanted with powers focussed on specific groups of enemies - for example a +1 Magebane Wounding blade \| +1 Constructbane Speed weapon costs 82,600 plus the cost of the sword; a +1 Magebane Constructbane Speed Wounding sword costs 128,300gp plus the cost of the sword. Get your Cleric or Wizard buddy to put GMW on it for a +3 or higher bonus (we're looking at 15th level or higher to acquire either of these things). The smaller damage dice are not terribly significant as most damage should be coming from the modifiers anyway. The only other cost is the proficiency feat for the exotic weapon. No, you don't use power attack if wielding a light weapon in the off-hand (or a double weapon). You want PA and two weapons, fight with two one-handed weapons (which gives +1 damage bonus per point of penalty on attack rolls) for both weapons. Two-weapon fighting is a feat-intensive chain, thus requires either a commitment to Ranger, the fighter's bonus feats or another reason to take the chain, such as the rogue's sneak attack.
Nom 03-05-07, 06:11 PM	Therefore in conclusion you are saying that you can use two handed double ended weapons as either 1)double handed weapons OR 2) two ended weapon not both. I didn't see this in the rules, it does make things simpleIt's on Player's Handbook page 113, up the top. Note that you can use any one- or two-handed melee weapon two handed, for +1.5* Str bonus. With two-handed weapons, you don't get a choice. but then what is the point of the double ended two handed sword?Flexibility. It's often advantageous to use the same weapon in each hand, because you can then apply feats like Weapon Focus to both weapons. But the difference in damage between two shortswords (1d6, 1d6) and a two-bladed sword (1d8/1d8) is only one point per die, and the shortswords are finessable. So the damage difference is minor. The main advantage of the double weapon is you can choose to TWF or fight two-handed as is convenient. If you'll only get a single attack (typically because you moved) then you can use both hands for improved Str to damage. If you can afford to full attack then you can TWF without changing weapons. Double weapons are mainly useful for strong characters. If you don't have the Str to take advantage of the *1.5 Str bonus then you're probably better off with a pair of finessable weapons. And it looks like you would never power attack with a double ended weapon.In TWF mode, no. In two-handed mode, sure.
jadehawk 03-06-07, 01:11 PM	It's on Player's Handbook page 113, up the top. Note that you can use any one- or two-handed melee weapon two handed, for +1.5* Str bonus. With two-handed weapons, you don't get a choice. True, but for anyone not familiar with the weapon system it is important to indicate that a one-handed weapon is a category of weapon, not just any weapon you wield in one hand. Light weapon is another category; while you do wield light weapons one-handed they are not considered 'one-handed' weapons, so you may not two-hand them for the extra damage. They are sort of silly category names to be honest. Basically this is how it goes: Light weapons: must be wielded one-handed, can reduce two-weapon fighting penalties by wielding this type in the offhand. One-handed weapons: may be wielded one-handed, but can also be wielded two-handed to deal 1.5x str damage. Two-handed: must be wielded two-handed, and so always deals 1.5x str damage.
Nom 03-06-07, 09:33 PM	Agreed. It's legal to use "light weapons" two-handed, but it grants no benefit. I had originally mentioned "light weapons", but took it out, and didn't notice that this might cause confusion about whether "one-handed weapon" was a technical term or just any weapon wielded in one hand.
kjenks 03-06-07, 09:44 PM	But there are two light weapons which can get the Power Attack damage bonus: natural weapons and unarmed strikes.
Nathreet 03-07-07, 02:04 AM	Power attack bonus doesn't apply to light weapons, but the penalty still applies. The 2nd attack on a double weapon is always a light weapon. It's almost always a bad idea to power attack when fighting with two weapons or when fighting with a double weapon. You could fight with two weapons using a one handed (not light) weapon in your off hand. That would increase the TWF fighting penalty from -2 to -4. But if you have a strength of 26 or higher, it might be worth it. You'd gain 8 extra damage to half your attacks, while paying -2 AB to both attacks. 8 * 1/2 = 2 + 2. That's not any worse than power attack. Factor in the extra damage of the one handed weapon and it might be worth it even with a strength of 24 or 22.