Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ertai Planeswalker 07-10-07, 08:03 PM	Bolster Spell [Metamagic] A bolstered spell has all dice variables increased by one dice. For example, a Bolstered Fireball deals 1D8 damage per casterlevel, and a Bolstered Magic Missile would deal 1D6+1 per missile. A bolstered spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than normal. Expand Spell [Metamagic] An expanded spell has it's damage cap doubled. For example, an expanded Fireball deals a maximum of 20D6 damage instead of 10D6. Only spells with a dice/level variable can be expanded. An expanded spell uses up a spell slot of the same level as the original spell. For example, an expanded fireball costs an additional 3rd level spell slot. Opinions?
zorgling25 07-10-07, 10:12 PM	Bolster Spell [Metamagic] A bolstered spell has all dice variables increased by one dice. For example, a Bolstered Fireball deals 1D8 damage per casterlevel, and a Bolstered Magic Missile would deal 1D6+1 per missile. A bolstered spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than normal. Expand Spell [Metamagic] An expanded spell has it's damage cap doubled. For example, an expanded Fireball deals a maximum of 20D6 damage instead of 10D6. Only spells with a dice/level variable can be expanded. An expanded spell uses up a spell slot of the same level as the original spell. For example, an expanded fireball costs an additional 3rd level spell slot. Opinions? The first one would need to provide a very clear rule for dice advancement. This is because advancing from 1d4 to 1d6 is a larger gain percentage-wise than advancing from 1d10 to 1d12. This is why weapon damage doesn't do straight dice-type increase as you increase weapon size. The second one is arguably too similar to twin spell.
Vharuck 07-10-07, 10:54 PM	The second one is a feat that almost every wizard should have. Having it not increase a slot at all makes it so that every spell applicable should be prepared as such.
zorgling25 07-10-07, 10:58 PM	The second one is a feat that almost every wizard should have. Having it not increase a slot at all makes it so that every spell applicable should be prepared as such. After reading your post, I just saw the 2nd feat in a new light. Basically, you're forced to cast 1 extra spell quickened, but at no extra spell level increase. BROKEN! Aside from the fact that the difference between this and Twin Spell is way too small, it should at least have a spell level adjustment equal to Twin Spell (+4)
runestar 07-10-07, 11:11 PM	There is already the enhance spell epic feat, which raises the caster lv cap on spells by 10, but has a +4 slot adjustment. Bolster spell does not scale linearly. What happens if I bolster a spell which deals d8 damage? Is it improved to 2d6 or 1d10? What happens if I have a spell which deals d12 damage? Does that scale up to d20?:P I would just say that it allows the spell to deal an additional point of damage per die (so a 10d6 fireball deals an extra 10 damage, 15d6 cone of cold deals extra 15 damage etc). Does this sound balanced?
zorgling25 07-10-07, 11:19 PM	That sounds fair, since its not really as powerful as empower spell.
Ertai Planeswalker 07-11-07, 12:50 AM	About Embolster: This is effectively increasing the damage output by 1 per die. Average damage on a D6 is 3.5, on a D8 4.5, on a D105.5. The reason i made it the way i did is so that you can also apply it to spells with effects based on dice that do not deal damage, like Time Stop. If your DM would rule creatively, it would also allow you a bigger chance to get a good result on a prismatic spell. The order as far as i know is D4->D6->D8->D10->D12->D20. About Expand: I know about Enhance spell, it is based on that. The idea of the feat is to increase the mileage out of your lower level spells slots at higher levels. Remember, before it doubles a spell effect you need to have the appropriate casterlevel! A level 14 sorcerer casting an Expanded Fireball gains 4D6 extra damage at the cost of a 3rd level slot. Twin Spell is a bad feat. Why would i cast 2 X-4 level spells when it is inherent in the system that a level X spell is more powerfull than two X-4 spells? If i have a Xth level spell slot, i will spend it on X. Even if the Xth spell would have the exact same effect as two X-4th level spells combined, the Xth level's save DC would be 4 higher.
zorgling25 07-11-07, 01:09 AM	About Embolster: This is effectively increasing the damage output by 1 per die. Average damage on a D6 is 3.5, on a D8 4.5, on a D105.5. The reason i made it the way i did is so that you can also apply it to spells with effects based on dice that do not deal damage, like Time Stop. If your DM would rule creatively, it would also allow you a bigger chance to get a good result on a prismatic spell. The order as far as i know is D4->D6->D8->D10->D12->D20. About Expand: I know about Enhance spell, it is based on that. The idea of the feat is to increase the mileage out of your lower level spells slots at higher levels. Remember, before it doubles a spell effect you need to have the appropriate casterlevel! A level 14 sorcerer casting an Expanded Fireball gains 4D6 extra damage at the cost of a 3rd level slot. Twin Spell is a bad feat. Why would i cast 2 X-4 level spells when it is inherent in the system that a level X spell is more powerfull than two X-4 spells? If i have a Xth level spell slot, i will spend it on X. Even if the Xth spell would have the exact same effect as two X-4th level spells combined, the Xth level's save DC would be 4 higher. The dice advancement is slightly unbalanced, weighted heavily in favor of the d4 and d6 ends of the spectrum. As I said in my post before, you're essentially getting a free quicken. So you have to cast the spell twice at once? Thats not worth getting 1 of them quickened for free! Even if Twin Spell is underpowered, that doesn't change your feat from being overpowered. Now, if it could only be applied to standard action spells, and made the cast time full-round, then we might be able to talk.
TiwazTyrsfist 07-11-07, 02:03 AM	On bolster, I'd use the weapon/natural weapon size increase progression. I forget which book it's in, but it seems like a good choice to me. Also, I'd go 2 levels on bolster, not one. Increasing die size seems equal to Empower to me.
tarkin 07-11-07, 10:29 AM	Bolster Spell [Metamagic] On average a weak feat. Not sure I would ever take it. Expand Spell [Metamagic] You have failed to properly account for the existing Epic feat. You effectively have allowed a non-epic feat and 2 3rd level slots to account for what an Epic feat and a 7th level slot can do. No way is that fair. Part of the problem is that you seem to think two spells of the same slot is a big deal. It is almost NOTHING. At the higher level, when you can take advantage of this feat, it is VERY easy to get lots of extra low level slots, like say using a Ring of Wizardry. Yes, before it doubles the effect you need the higher caster levels. That just means only a higher level caster will take the feat. Which by the way means you SHOULD put in a higher set of pre-reqs. Let's look at a standard 20th level caster. He can: 1. cast a Maximized Fireball (6th slot): 60 2. Cast an expanded fireball (two 3rds): averaging 70 3. Cast a Expanded Maximized Fireball (two 6th slots): 120 4. Cast an unmodified Delayed Fireball (one 7th level slot): 20d6, averaging 70, but with a higher save DC. ---------- I would allow Expanded if it was halved in power. Either damage cap is multiplied by 1.5, or it takes TWO additional spell slots of the same value.
zorgling25 07-11-07, 10:43 AM	[ Expand Spell [Metamagic] You have failed to properly account for the existing Epic feat. You effectively have allowed a non-epic feat and 2 3rd level slots to account for what an Epic feat and a 7th level slot can do. As I've stated before, Quicken and Twin Spell are both similar to this effect. Regardless of how good they are, they still set a decent precedent, as they both happen to be +4 Spell Adjust.
Ertai Planeswalker 07-11-07, 07:09 PM	The dice advancement is slightly unbalanced, weighted heavily in favor of the d4 and d6 ends of the spectrum. I don't understand this statement. The only die that gains more than +1 damage on average is the D12. As I said in my post before, you're essentially getting a free quicken. So you have to cast the spell twice at once? Thats not worth getting 1 of them quickened for free! Even if Twin Spell is underpowered, that doesn't change your feat from being overpowered. Quicken allows you to do other things in the same round as you cast a spell, this does not. And i don't know about your group, but in my group no one ever uses quicken, or any of the +4 adjustment feats, because they're just not worth it in our opinion. Now, if it could only be applied to standard action spells, and made the cast time full-round, then we might be able to talk. Only standard action spells would not change the feat much, i couldn't give you one dice/level damage spell from the top of my head that takes more than one action to cast. And the casting time increase is standard for a sorcerer. @Tarkin: I have not failed to take Enhance Spell into account, in fact it is loosely based on it. So yeah, by blowing more of your resources in one round you can do more damage in one round... that's exactly what the feat is meant to do. Fireball isn;t bad at 18th level because it deals 10D6, it's bad because it costs an action to deal only 10D6. So yeah, this feat increases your damage output. Which is what it should do, because it it did not make you stronger, why take the feat? Feats are supposed to make you more powerful (Counting flexibility as more powerfull as well) otherwise they would be worthless.
zorgling25 07-11-07, 07:36 PM	I don't understand this statement. The only die that gains more than +1 damage on average is the D12. That was my typo, should have meant d12. My point is, there is relatively little percentage gain for d6s, d8s, and d10s compared to d4s and d12s. Quicken allows you to do other things in the same round as you cast a spell, this does not. And i don't know about your group, but in my group no one ever uses quicken, or any of the +4 adjustment feats, because they're just not worth it in our opinion. The important thing to note is that this is your OPINION. I DO find Quicken to be balanced, and I use it all the time. Again, as I said before, you thinking these feats are underpowered does not change the fact that yours is broken. Looking at it from a different standpoint, you are reducing two standard action's worth of actions into a single standard action. Since you can't take 2 standard actions in a round, you are effectively reducing 2 ROUNDS worth of actions to a single standard action. Now this is an exaggeration, since with 2 separate spells, you could also make 2 moves, whereas you get 1 here, and you could select 2 targets with 2 separate casts. However, also remember that enemies only get ONE chance to stop you, as opposed to two. Only standard action spells would not change the feat much, i couldn't give you one dice/level damage spell from the top of my head that takes more than one action to cast. And the casting time increase is standard for a sorcerer. You misunderstand me. The fact that the cast time would become full-round would bar sorcerers from this metamagic feat. Now I know I'm going to hear about underpowering sorcerers again, but when dealing with balance issues, you choose the lesser of two evils. So yeah, by blowing more of your resources in one round you can do more damage in one round... that's exactly what the feat is meant to do. Fireball isn;t bad at 18th level because it deals 10D6, it's bad because it costs an action to deal only 10D6. So yeah, this feat increases your damage output. Which is what it should do, because it it did not make you stronger, why take the feat? Feats are supposed to make you more powerful (Counting flexibility as more powerfull as well) otherwise they would be worthless. Except an extra spell of the same level isn't worth the SAME DAMAGE, because its basically a FREE CAST of the spell. I am well aware of considering flexibility as increased power. You seem to be unaware of the fact that saving a standard action to cast is a BIG DEAL.
tarkin 07-12-07, 10:39 AM	As I've stated before, Quicken and Twin Spell are both similar to this effect. Regardless of how good they are, they still set a decent precedent, as they both happen to be +4 Spell Adjust. You continue to fail to understand what I am saying. Let me make it clear to you: NO OTHER METAMAGIC FEAT USES A SEPERATE SLOT While I know that you personally think it is OK, I am trying to explain to you that it is NOT OK. It is overpowered and abusive. You want to make this thing fair? Try this: "You double the cap, and also double the spell slot used." I.E. A fireball with a cap of 20d6 would be a 6th level spell. Two 3rd level spells slots are NOT equivelent and are NOT fair.
zorgling25 07-12-07, 10:42 AM	You continue to fail to understand what I am saying. Let me make it clear to you: NO OTHER METAMAGIC FEAT USES A SEPERATE SLOT While I know that you personally think it is OK, I am trying to explain to you that it is NOT OK. It is overpowered and abusive. Thats what I'M trying to SAY!!! I am saying, that, comparing this to the most similar metamagics out there, this...thing should be SLA +4,