Two Shields? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Two Shields? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
TheBlackPaladin
09-04-07, 10:36 PM I have been working over an idea in my head. If I can make an attack with a shield, what is stopping me from wielding two shields with Two-Weapon Fighting? The question then comes down to a couple of things: would I need a new feat, or would Two-Weapon Fighting work; I know that bonuses of the same name do not stack, but would it be rational to create a feat that would allow a character to gain the benefit of both shields; and finally, what would be balanced prerequisites of such a feat?
jaelis
09-04-07, 10:50 PM what is stopping me from wielding two shields with Two-Weapon Fighting?

Only an obscure and probably unintentional line in the shield description that says you can only attack with them as an off-hand weapon. Probably safe to ignore.

The question then comes down to a couple of things: would I need a new feat, or would Two-Weapon Fighting work;

TWF is fine. Technically you don't even need that, you just have bigger penalties.

I know that bonuses of the same name do not stack, but would it be rational to create a feat that would allow a character to gain the benefit of both shields;

Personally, I think such a feat would be overpowered. It would radically reduce the cost of AC. (ie, +10 shield bonus to AC would cost 18000 gp instead of being epic.)
Meep326
09-04-07, 10:54 PM Two-Weapon Fighting works for using two shields. And I'd really like to see a feat that allows both to stack (although the feat form PHII would get really good then, two shields to touch AC and against Trip, Bull Rush, Sunder, Grapple, and whatnot). I wouldn't consider it 'unrational' to create such a feat if you make the prerequisites tough enough. As you're using two sheilds, your defensive capabilities should raise too.
Defraeter
09-05-07, 01:59 AM Two-Weapon Fighting works for using two shields. And I'd really like to see a feat that allows both to stack (although the feat form PHII would get really good then, two shields to touch AC and against Trip, Bull Rush, Sunder, Grapple, and whatnot). I wouldn't consider it 'unrational' to create such a feat if you make the prerequisites tough enough. As you're using two sheilds, your defensive capabilities should raise too.

Why? I don't think it's easy to handle 2 shields at the same time (they are wide and each will be in the way of the other: so interfere with a good fighting) and if you need them for cover, you have the tower shield as big as 2 large shields...

But, in all times, it's somewhere "against the rules" to "stack" the same 2 bonuses.
Thurbane
09-05-07, 08:37 AM As we all know, multiple shield bonuses don't stack. However, if you give one shield spikes, and enchant those spikes with the Defending weapon quality...:D
RobbyPants
09-05-07, 01:25 PM I know that bonuses of the same name do not stack, but would it be rational to create a feat that would allow a character to gain the benefit of both shields; and finally, what would be balanced prerequisites of such a feat?
About the only way I could justify doing this is if you only let the other bonus apply during the total defense action, or something similar. As Jaelis already mentioned, it makes shield bonus to AC much cheaper, and typically the shield bonus is going to be a smaller portion of a PC's total AC than the armor bonus, anyway.

The other option is to let the new feat only allow the user to apply a +1 shield bonus to their AC, regardless of what the bonus is for the shield by itself. This puts it on par with Sheild Specialization (PHB 2). You could also allow a dual shield wielder to take Shield Specialization twice, and allow it to count twice. It would end up netting you a +1 point of AC per feat (which really isn't too powerful).

Perhaps you could allow the abilities of both shields to work together (such as if one granted fire resistance and one granted cold resistance). So even if the full AC bonus isn't being granted by both, at least other passive abilities are.

my :twocents:
goawayugh
09-05-07, 02:39 PM TWF w/ shields is a very interesting idea. However, I would never allow shield bonuses to stack. Way too powerful, way too abusable.
jaelis
09-05-07, 02:50 PM Perhaps you could allow the abilities of both shields to work together (such as if one granted fire resistance and one granted cold resistance). So even if the full AC bonus isn't being granted by both, at least other passive abilities are.

Actually, as far as I know that works RAW.
RobbyPants
09-05-07, 04:08 PM Actually, as far as I know that works RAW.
Makes sense to me. That itself doesn't seem too abusable.
Dog_O_War
09-05-07, 06:53 PM Maybe such a feat would allow half the protection from the, "off hand" shield, discounting any magical enhancement bonuses it may have.
TheBlackPaladin
09-05-07, 07:30 PM Maybe such a feat would allow half the protection from the, "off hand" shield, discounting any magical enhancement bonuses it may have.

This seems logical. the part of things that would stack is the special abilities of the shields, but the enhancement bonuses wouldn't stack due to them both being shield bonuses. This kinda works like arrows and bows. So the feat would look like this:

Two-Shield Fighting
Prerequisite: Dex 15, Improved Shield Bash, Two-Weapon Fighting
Benefit: When wielding two shields, you recieve half the shield bonus from the "off-hand" shield and this does stack with the shield bonus from the other shield. If both shields are magical, you do not recieve the enhancement bonuses from both shields, only from the primary shield. You do however gain the special abilities from both.
TheRealOrion
09-06-07, 12:33 AM TWF w/ shields is a very interesting idea. However, I would never allow shield bonuses to stack. Way too powerful, way too abusable.
Example?

I'd say, limit it to bucklers or smalls, ACP stacks, and have at it. The limiting factor is that while you're attacking, you don't get the AC bonus. It's a very flexible style; you're protected one round, dishing out the hurt the next.
Majick
09-06-07, 12:34 AM Improved Shield Bash is a must have - you need your AC when using them

Two-Weapon Fighting and and Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting (if using Heavy Shields) is also 2 must have feats - TWF gets you -4/-4 and OTWF gets you -2/-2

Let's say for a moment your a lvl 1 Human Fighter and you can get all of those. woot.

Now the issues arise in this idea you had about getting AC from both? I would be somewhat hesitant myself to make a ruling on this because a (potention) +14 AC shield bonus could somewhat unbalance the game. As we all know AC bonuses from like sources do not stack in D&D.

... But why do they have to be of like sources? There are item creation rules in the back of the DMG just for peoples like you my friend :D there are OTHER types of bonus other than shield (enhancement) that can be added to thing; luck, insight, divine, profane etc. they just cost more, so if your willing to pay the price (and RP it like the bonus was coming from your shields like a usual bonus) then i wouldn't see a problem with this.

Hope that helps
EjoThims
09-06-07, 08:02 AM Any double shield fighter should also take the shield feats in PHB2 (especially the one for shield ac to touch ac if any shield bonus from the second shield is allowed).

In an upcoming campaign I'm going to be allowing a feat that gives the option of gaining the shield bonus to ac from both shields when using combat expertise, fighting defensively, or total defense, but using the option gives a penalty to all attacks equal to the OH shield's armor check penalty.
RobbyPants
09-06-07, 10:29 AM Maybe such a feat would allow half the protection from the, "off hand" shield, discounting any magical enhancement bonuses it may have.
Personally, I'd just have +1 shield bonus to AC apply from the off hand. It keeps it simple, and also keeps the feat-to-AC-boost at a 1:1 ratio.

On a similar note, it might be fun to create a few dual shield feats, for just such a character. If both shields were heavy shields, you might create a feat allowing him to duck behind both to gain total cover, similar to a tower shield, but not allowing any attacks that round. It could be nice for moving into position.
heavenoffilth
09-06-07, 02:41 PM if you are using one shield in primary hand and one in off hand, i would rule the primary(or both with TWF) as a weapon for +bonus and special abilities like 2,000 gp for +1weapon bonus and needing it to take Defending to get any AC bonus. :confused:
TheBlackPaladin
09-06-07, 04:55 PM On a similar note, it might be fun to create a few dual shield feats, for just such a character. If both shields were heavy shields, you might create a feat allowing him to duck behind both to gain total cover, similar to a tower shield, but not allowing any attacks that round. It could be nice for moving into position.

First off:
Turtlebacking
Prerequisites: Dex 15, Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Shield Bash, Two-Shield Fighting.
Benefit: When wielding two heavy shields, you can gain the benefits of total cover, though you must give up your attacks to do so. This does not, however provide cover against targeted spells, a spellcaster can cast a spell on you by targeting one of the shields you are holding.

The only question I have is would this be worth it's own feat, or could this be a part of a larger Tactical feat? If so, what other maneuvers would you have? I'm thinking of a maneuver in which in responce to a missed attack, you can make a trip attack as an AoO.
I was just reading the Tactical feat out of PHBII Blood-Spiked Charger. One of the manuevers is Spiked Rebuke Basically, when fighting defensively with a shield, you factor out what your AC is without the shield and AC bonus for fighting defensively. If an opponent's attack hits against the lower AC but misses against the actual AC, the foe has hit your shield, allowing you to deflect his attack in shuch a way as to leave him vulnerable to your counter. On your next action, you gain a +2 bonus on attack rolls against that opponent with the shield.
Would the same concept be balanced for a tripping AoO? Instead of receiving a bonus on the next attack, you get an immediate AoO to make a trip attempt on the opponent. This is effectively you deflecting the attack in a way that leave them open. You plow them down with your other shield.

If this is to become a Tactical feat, I would need another maneuver. Possibly something with bull rush, grapple (pinning), or overrun. If anyone has any ideas, they would be much appreciated.
Shaggy_Shaggs
09-07-07, 02:09 AM Eh, I don't like the requisites on that tactical feat so much. Tactical and weapon style feats generally require you to take at least one feat that's utter crap just to get the benefits, and often need additional feats to work to their best effect. I'd do it something like this.

Shell of the Tortoise [Tactical]
Your mastery of fighting with two shields has strengthened your defenses, and grants you unusual avenues of attack. Your shields deflect not only weapons, but also bodies.
Prerequisites: Improved Bull Rush, Improved Overrun, Improved Shield Bash, Weapon Focus (heavy or light shield or dwarven buckler-axe)
Benefit: The Shell of the Tortoise feat enables the use of three tactical maneuvers.
Shield Wall: When you wield two or more shields, you can give up your attacks for the round to use your shields as total cover, as a tower shield (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/armor.htm#shieldTower). The shields do not provide cover against targeted spells.
Shield Push: When you are fighting defensively and wielding two or more shields, you take advantage of momentary lapses in attackers' balance to shove them away. Determine what your AC would be without your shields and the AC bonus for fighting defensively. If an opponent's attack hits against this lower AC but misses against your actual AC, the foe strikes your shield, allowing you to deflect his attack in such a way as to push him away from you. As an immediate action you may make a special bull rush (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#bullRush)against the attacker. The bull rush works as normal except that for every 5 points by which your check result is greater than the attacker's check result, you push him back an additional 5 feet, but you may not move with him. This counts as one of your attacks of opportunity for the round.
Shield Advance: Presenting the joined edges of your shields like a wedge, you bull through crowds with ease, knocking bystanders aside. When you wield two or more shields, you may charge at an enemy to which you do not have a clear charge line, if the only obstacles between you and the charge target are other creatures. You can attempt an overrun (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#overrun) as a free action during a charge, and multiple overruns during the charge are possible. If a creature successfully blocks your overrun, your charge action ends and the block is resolved normally.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TheBlackPaladin 09-04-07, 10:36 PM	I have been working over an idea in my head. If I can make an attack with a shield, what is stopping me from wielding two shields with Two-Weapon Fighting? The question then comes down to a couple of things: would I need a new feat, or would Two-Weapon Fighting work; I know that bonuses of the same name do not stack, but would it be rational to create a feat that would allow a character to gain the benefit of both shields; and finally, what would be balanced prerequisites of such a feat?
jaelis 09-04-07, 10:50 PM	what is stopping me from wielding two shields with Two-Weapon Fighting? Only an obscure and probably unintentional line in the shield description that says you can only attack with them as an off-hand weapon. Probably safe to ignore. The question then comes down to a couple of things: would I need a new feat, or would Two-Weapon Fighting work; TWF is fine. Technically you don't even need that, you just have bigger penalties. I know that bonuses of the same name do not stack, but would it be rational to create a feat that would allow a character to gain the benefit of both shields; Personally, I think such a feat would be overpowered. It would radically reduce the cost of AC. (ie, +10 shield bonus to AC would cost 18000 gp instead of being epic.)
Meep326 09-04-07, 10:54 PM	Two-Weapon Fighting works for using two shields. And I'd really like to see a feat that allows both to stack (although the feat form PHII would get really good then, two shields to touch AC and against Trip, Bull Rush, Sunder, Grapple, and whatnot). I wouldn't consider it 'unrational' to create such a feat if you make the prerequisites tough enough. As you're using two sheilds, your defensive capabilities should raise too.
Defraeter 09-05-07, 01:59 AM	Two-Weapon Fighting works for using two shields. And I'd really like to see a feat that allows both to stack (although the feat form PHII would get really good then, two shields to touch AC and against Trip, Bull Rush, Sunder, Grapple, and whatnot). I wouldn't consider it 'unrational' to create such a feat if you make the prerequisites tough enough. As you're using two sheilds, your defensive capabilities should raise too. Why? I don't think it's easy to handle 2 shields at the same time (they are wide and each will be in the way of the other: so interfere with a good fighting) and if you need them for cover, you have the tower shield as big as 2 large shields... But, in all times, it's somewhere "against the rules" to "stack" the same 2 bonuses.
Thurbane 09-05-07, 08:37 AM	As we all know, multiple shield bonuses don't stack. However, if you give one shield spikes, and enchant those spikes with the Defending weapon quality...:D
RobbyPants 09-05-07, 01:25 PM	I know that bonuses of the same name do not stack, but would it be rational to create a feat that would allow a character to gain the benefit of both shields; and finally, what would be balanced prerequisites of such a feat? About the only way I could justify doing this is if you only let the other bonus apply during the total defense action, or something similar. As Jaelis already mentioned, it makes shield bonus to AC much cheaper, and typically the shield bonus is going to be a smaller portion of a PC's total AC than the armor bonus, anyway. The other option is to let the new feat only allow the user to apply a +1 shield bonus to their AC, regardless of what the bonus is for the shield by itself. This puts it on par with Sheild Specialization (PHB 2). You could also allow a dual shield wielder to take Shield Specialization twice, and allow it to count twice. It would end up netting you a +1 point of AC per feat (which really isn't too powerful). Perhaps you could allow the abilities of both shields to work together (such as if one granted fire resistance and one granted cold resistance). So even if the full AC bonus isn't being granted by both, at least other passive abilities are. my :twocents:
goawayugh 09-05-07, 02:39 PM	TWF w/ shields is a very interesting idea. However, I would never allow shield bonuses to stack. Way too powerful, way too abusable.
jaelis 09-05-07, 02:50 PM	Perhaps you could allow the abilities of both shields to work together (such as if one granted fire resistance and one granted cold resistance). So even if the full AC bonus isn't being granted by both, at least other passive abilities are. Actually, as far as I know that works RAW.
RobbyPants 09-05-07, 04:08 PM	Actually, as far as I know that works RAW. Makes sense to me. That itself doesn't seem too abusable.
Dog_O_War 09-05-07, 06:53 PM	Maybe such a feat would allow half the protection from the, "off hand" shield, discounting any magical enhancement bonuses it may have.
TheBlackPaladin 09-05-07, 07:30 PM	Maybe such a feat would allow half the protection from the, "off hand" shield, discounting any magical enhancement bonuses it may have. This seems logical. the part of things that would stack is the special abilities of the shields, but the enhancement bonuses wouldn't stack due to them both being shield bonuses. This kinda works like arrows and bows. So the feat would look like this: Two-Shield Fighting Prerequisite: Dex 15, Improved Shield Bash, Two-Weapon Fighting Benefit: When wielding two shields, you recieve half the shield bonus from the "off-hand" shield and this does stack with the shield bonus from the other shield. If both shields are magical, you do not recieve the enhancement bonuses from both shields, only from the primary shield. You do however gain the special abilities from both.
TheRealOrion 09-06-07, 12:33 AM	TWF w/ shields is a very interesting idea. However, I would never allow shield bonuses to stack. Way too powerful, way too abusable. Example? I'd say, limit it to bucklers or smalls, ACP stacks, and have at it. The limiting factor is that while you're attacking, you don't get the AC bonus. It's a very flexible style; you're protected one round, dishing out the hurt the next.
Majick 09-06-07, 12:34 AM	Improved Shield Bash is a must have - you need your AC when using them Two-Weapon Fighting and and Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting (if using Heavy Shields) is also 2 must have feats - TWF gets you -4/-4 and OTWF gets you -2/-2 Let's say for a moment your a lvl 1 Human Fighter and you can get all of those. woot. Now the issues arise in this idea you had about getting AC from both? I would be somewhat hesitant myself to make a ruling on this because a (potention) +14 AC shield bonus could somewhat unbalance the game. As we all know AC bonuses from like sources do not stack in D&D. ... But why do they have to be of like sources? There are item creation rules in the back of the DMG just for peoples like you my friend :D there are OTHER types of bonus other than shield (enhancement) that can be added to thing; luck, insight, divine, profane etc. they just cost more, so if your willing to pay the price (and RP it like the bonus was coming from your shields like a usual bonus) then i wouldn't see a problem with this. Hope that helps
EjoThims 09-06-07, 08:02 AM	Any double shield fighter should also take the shield feats in PHB2 (especially the one for shield ac to touch ac if any shield bonus from the second shield is allowed). In an upcoming campaign I'm going to be allowing a feat that gives the option of gaining the shield bonus to ac from both shields when using combat expertise, fighting defensively, or total defense, but using the option gives a penalty to all attacks equal to the OH shield's armor check penalty.
RobbyPants 09-06-07, 10:29 AM	Maybe such a feat would allow half the protection from the, "off hand" shield, discounting any magical enhancement bonuses it may have. Personally, I'd just have +1 shield bonus to AC apply from the off hand. It keeps it simple, and also keeps the feat-to-AC-boost at a 1:1 ratio. On a similar note, it might be fun to create a few dual shield feats, for just such a character. If both shields were heavy shields, you might create a feat allowing him to duck behind both to gain total cover, similar to a tower shield, but not allowing any attacks that round. It could be nice for moving into position.
heavenoffilth 09-06-07, 02:41 PM	if you are using one shield in primary hand and one in off hand, i would rule the primary(or both with TWF) as a weapon for +bonus and special abilities like 2,000 gp for +1weapon bonus and needing it to take Defending to get any AC bonus. :confused:
TheBlackPaladin 09-06-07, 04:55 PM	On a similar note, it might be fun to create a few dual shield feats, for just such a character. If both shields were heavy shields, you might create a feat allowing him to duck behind both to gain total cover, similar to a tower shield, but not allowing any attacks that round. It could be nice for moving into position. First off: Turtlebacking Prerequisites: Dex 15, Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Shield Bash, Two-Shield Fighting. Benefit: When wielding two heavy shields, you can gain the benefits of total cover, though you must give up your attacks to do so. This does not, however provide cover against targeted spells, a spellcaster can cast a spell on you by targeting one of the shields you are holding. The only question I have is would this be worth it's own feat, or could this be a part of a larger Tactical feat? If so, what other maneuvers would you have? I'm thinking of a maneuver in which in responce to a missed attack, you can make a trip attack as an AoO. I was just reading the Tactical feat out of PHBII Blood-Spiked Charger. One of the manuevers is Spiked Rebuke Basically, when fighting defensively with a shield, you factor out what your AC is without the shield and AC bonus for fighting defensively. If an opponent's attack hits against the lower AC but misses against the actual AC, the foe has hit your shield, allowing you to deflect his attack in shuch a way as to leave him vulnerable to your counter. On your next action, you gain a +2 bonus on attack rolls against that opponent with the shield. Would the same concept be balanced for a tripping AoO? Instead of receiving a bonus on the next attack, you get an immediate AoO to make a trip attempt on the opponent. This is effectively you deflecting the attack in a way that leave them open. You plow them down with your other shield. If this is to become a Tactical feat, I would need another maneuver. Possibly something with bull rush, grapple (pinning), or overrun. If anyone has any ideas, they would be much appreciated.
Shaggy_Shaggs 09-07-07, 02:09 AM	Eh, I don't like the requisites on that tactical feat so much. Tactical and weapon style feats generally require you to take at least one feat that's utter crap just to get the benefits, and often need additional feats to work to their best effect. I'd do it something like this. Shell of the Tortoise [Tactical] Your mastery of fighting with two shields has strengthened your defenses, and grants you unusual avenues of attack. Your shields deflect not only weapons, but also bodies. Prerequisites: Improved Bull Rush, Improved Overrun, Improved Shield Bash, Weapon Focus (heavy or light shield or dwarven buckler-axe) Benefit: The Shell of the Tortoise feat enables the use of three tactical maneuvers. Shield Wall: When you wield two or more shields, you can give up your attacks for the round to use your shields as total cover, as a tower shield (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/armor.htm#shieldTower). The shields do not provide cover against targeted spells. Shield Push: When you are fighting defensively and wielding two or more shields, you take advantage of momentary lapses in attackers' balance to shove them away. Determine what your AC would be without your shields and the AC bonus for fighting defensively. If an opponent's attack hits against this lower AC but misses against your actual AC, the foe strikes your shield, allowing you to deflect his attack in such a way as to push him away from you. As an immediate action you may make a special bull rush (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#bullRush)against the attacker. The bull rush works as normal except that for every 5 points by which your check result is greater than the attacker's check result, you push him back an additional 5 feet, but you may not move with him. This counts as one of your attacks of opportunity for the round. Shield Advance: Presenting the joined edges of your shields like a wedge, you bull through crowds with ease, knocking bystanders aside. When you wield two or more shields, you may charge at an enemy to which you do not have a clear charge line, if the only obstacles between you and the charge target are other creatures. You can attempt an overrun (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#overrun) as a free action during a charge, and multiple overruns during the charge are possible. If a creature successfully blocks your overrun, your charge action ends and the block is resolved normally.