two sneak attack feat interaction questions [Archive] - Wizards Community

two sneak attack feat interaction questions [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
gonthealmighty
10-30-07, 09:49 PM Would the energy damage from dragonfire strike affect undead or other creatures not subject to criticals or precision damage.
what about telling blow? If you roll a critical while qualifying for sneak attack dmg do you add your sneak attack twice?
Hsien
10-30-07, 10:11 PM Not familiar w/ Dragonfire Strike but...iirc
Elemental Burst weapon enhancements can still trigger there burst on cretaures not subject to criticals.
Not sure if that relates though.

Telling Blow:
No, you only get the sneak damage dice once. Telling Blow simply provides another means to trigger.
Clarified in FAQ and Rules Compendium.
gonthealmighty
10-30-07, 11:01 PM dragonfire strike states that you may convert the extra damage from sneak attack to fire damage instead of physical dmg.
jaelis
10-30-07, 11:02 PM dragonfire strike states that you may convert the extra damage from sneak attack to fire damage instead of physical dmg.

Then since you can't sneak attack undead, there would be nothing to convert :)
gonthealmighty
10-30-07, 11:08 PM my thought ran along the same lines as burst weapons since undead are not subject to extra damage from critical hits but still would take burst damage.

likewise undead are not subject to extra damage from a sneak attack you still trigger it and then convert it to energy damage.

I dont know mabey i just really want it to work that way and im just trying to justify it.
Tordak
10-31-07, 09:13 AM I don't think you can. It is still a sneak attack but as gains the fire descriptor, that's the only difference. It could be useful against frost giant or troll, but besides that it remains a sneak attack, so creatures immune to it don't take the damage.
Hsien
10-31-07, 04:34 PM Damage type conversions are always tricky.
Without reading the description myself, I'm going to fall back to my theory about Damage Reduction or Resistance; which Immunity is the highest form of. This is just the way it helps me think of the game mechanic.

Example:
Undead basically have Resist: Immune/Precision (sneak/skirmish)... bear with me.
Basic Damage can come in a wide variety of types, and in certain circumstances that includes precision damage, which is a variable type depending on the delivery system...i.e. what you hit the monster with.

If a sorceror/rogue, uses ray of fire on a FlatFooted creature; would he get to add sneak damage to that? Sneak dice is treated as same damage type as spell, in this example fire (see Co Arcane)
Human: Yes, human is vulnerable to sneak damage
Undead: No, they are immune to Sneak so no extra damage is taken despite it being an energy type and not a physical attack.

Same principle applys to this; the Dragon Strike is still sneak damage, just the type, physical to energy, has changed.

The difference with the Elemental Burst weapons is that they are simply triggered on the critical, but not considered "Critical" damage.

Ex for Burst on undead DR Immune/Critical
Critical is confirmed, the burst is triggered. Undead takes no extra damage from the critical, because of DR Immune/Critical, but the energy burst damage may still have full effect.

Note there may be some feats or PrC's ( SkullClan Hunter ) or weapon enhancements (?) that may allow characters to sneak/critical undead so dragonfire strike conversion could occur w/o a problem with those.

Basically my long winded way of saying NO, not without something else allowing you to sneak undead.
Tordak
11-01-07, 08:59 AM This will repeat what has been said so far, but the wording of the feat is clear on one thing ''When you get extra damage [dices] from sneak attack (skirmish, sudden strike), you can choose to make it fire damage.''

You don't get extra damage dices on undead, so you can't use the feat. In an occasion you would (from abilities, feats, spells or class feautres), you could use the dragonfire strike. Also I don't think it works with telling blow because you don't get it from sneak attack, you only get to add your sneak attack damages to the crit (so I don't think it's the same).
Hsien
11-01-07, 02:38 PM Having used Telling Blow alot, for my master Thrower, I would argue that it should work.
Telling Blow essentially just adds another method to trigger the precision damage; the extra dice themselves are still the sneak/skirmish dice that the character has.

Not that it really helpshis character since undead are usually immune to criticals and precision damage anyway.

Swift Hunter from Co Scoundrel, iirc, has an aspect that allows Skirmish damage to apply to favored foes...even if they are normally immune. Doesn't sound like it would help his build though.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
gonthealmighty 10-30-07, 09:49 PM	Would the energy damage from dragonfire strike affect undead or other creatures not subject to criticals or precision damage. what about telling blow? If you roll a critical while qualifying for sneak attack dmg do you add your sneak attack twice?
Hsien 10-30-07, 10:11 PM	Not familiar w/ Dragonfire Strike but...iirc Elemental Burst weapon enhancements can still trigger there burst on cretaures not subject to criticals. Not sure if that relates though. Telling Blow: No, you only get the sneak damage dice once. Telling Blow simply provides another means to trigger. Clarified in FAQ and Rules Compendium.
gonthealmighty 10-30-07, 11:01 PM	dragonfire strike states that you may convert the extra damage from sneak attack to fire damage instead of physical dmg.
jaelis 10-30-07, 11:02 PM	dragonfire strike states that you may convert the extra damage from sneak attack to fire damage instead of physical dmg. Then since you can't sneak attack undead, there would be nothing to convert :)
gonthealmighty 10-30-07, 11:08 PM	my thought ran along the same lines as burst weapons since undead are not subject to extra damage from critical hits but still would take burst damage. likewise undead are not subject to extra damage from a sneak attack you still trigger it and then convert it to energy damage. I dont know mabey i just really want it to work that way and im just trying to justify it.
Tordak 10-31-07, 09:13 AM	I don't think you can. It is still a sneak attack but as gains the fire descriptor, that's the only difference. It could be useful against frost giant or troll, but besides that it remains a sneak attack, so creatures immune to it don't take the damage.
Hsien 10-31-07, 04:34 PM	Damage type conversions are always tricky. Without reading the description myself, I'm going to fall back to my theory about Damage Reduction or Resistance; which Immunity is the highest form of. This is just the way it helps me think of the game mechanic. Example: Undead basically have Resist: Immune/Precision (sneak/skirmish)... bear with me. Basic Damage can come in a wide variety of types, and in certain circumstances that includes precision damage, which is a variable type depending on the delivery system...i.e. what you hit the monster with. If a sorceror/rogue, uses ray of fire on a FlatFooted creature; would he get to add sneak damage to that? Sneak dice is treated as same damage type as spell, in this example fire (see Co Arcane) Human: Yes, human is vulnerable to sneak damage Undead: No, they are immune to Sneak so no extra damage is taken despite it being an energy type and not a physical attack. Same principle applys to this; the Dragon Strike is still sneak damage, just the type, physical to energy, has changed. The difference with the Elemental Burst weapons is that they are simply triggered on the critical, but not considered "Critical" damage. Ex for Burst on undead DR Immune/Critical Critical is confirmed, the burst is triggered. Undead takes no extra damage from the critical, because of DR Immune/Critical, but the energy burst damage may still have full effect. Note there may be some feats or PrC's ( SkullClan Hunter ) or weapon enhancements (?) that may allow characters to sneak/critical undead so dragonfire strike conversion could occur w/o a problem with those. Basically my long winded way of saying NO, not without something else allowing you to sneak undead.
Tordak 11-01-07, 08:59 AM	This will repeat what has been said so far, but the wording of the feat is clear on one thing ''When you get extra damage [dices] from sneak attack (skirmish, sudden strike), you can choose to make it fire damage.'' You don't get extra damage dices on undead, so you can't use the feat. In an occasion you would (from abilities, feats, spells or class feautres), you could use the dragonfire strike. Also I don't think it works with telling blow because you don't get it from sneak attack, you only get to add your sneak attack damages to the crit (so I don't think it's the same).
Hsien 11-01-07, 02:38 PM	Having used Telling Blow alot, for my master Thrower, I would argue that it should work. Telling Blow essentially just adds another method to trigger the precision damage; the extra dice themselves are still the sneak/skirmish dice that the character has. Not that it really helpshis character since undead are usually immune to criticals and precision damage anyway. Swift Hunter from Co Scoundrel, iirc, has an aspect that allows Skirmish damage to apply to favored foes...even if they are normally immune. Doesn't sound like it would help his build though.