Two Weapon Spring Attack and Bounding Assault? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Two Weapon Spring Attack and Bounding Assault? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
TheGeek
03-27-08, 12:07 AM As the title suggests, I'm wondering as to the possible synergy of the Tempest Prc's Two Weapon Spring Attack class feature, and the Bounding Assault/Rapid Blitz extension of the spring attack tree.

Basically, my question is:

If I have Tempest's Two Weapon Spring Attack and the Bounding Assault and Improved Two-weapon Fighting feats, do I receive four attacks on a spring attack?

(Two for rapid blitz, one offhand for TW Spring attack, and another offhand for ITWF)

If unknown, how would you houserule it?
Tordak
03-27-08, 10:58 AM It appears that the wording of the feat suggest you get one additinal attack when using the attack action in bounding assault. The tempest 2-weapon spring attack say that you get 1 attack with each weapon as an attack action. I'd say this means you get 2 attacks on your first opponent and 1 on the second, or 3 attacks on one of the opponent you selected : 2 from 2-weapon spring attack, and an additional one from bounding assault.
TheGeek
03-27-08, 11:31 AM Well, I was hoping for an official ruling, as the wording is a bit ambiguous.

Found this:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46252

Has the Sage covered this?

How would I even ask the Sage? I never found a thread or email to send questions to.
mplindustries
03-28-08, 03:48 AM Well, I was hoping for an official ruling, as the wording is a bit ambiguous.

Found this:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46252

Has the Sage covered this?

How would I even ask the Sage? I never found a thread or email to send questions to.

No answer you get from CustServ or from the Sage would be "official."

Regardless, it would not be any better thought out or correct than anything a discussion on these boards would result in.

#1 Here is the easy answer. Improved Two Weapon Fighting does absolutely nothing for a Spring Attacker, as you get no benefit from ITWF unless you make a full attack.

For the harder question, here is the relevant wording:

Two Weapon Spring Attack:
"When a 5th level Tempest makes a spring attack, she can attack once each with two different weapons as an attack action."

Bounding Assault:
"While using an attack action with the Spring Attack feat, you can make a second attack with a -5 penalty."

So there are basically two answers here. The RAW answer, and the (most likely) RAI answer.

The RAI is pretty simple. Bounding Assault implies that the extra attack functions iteratively, and so it occurs independently from the second attack granted by the Tempest ability. The two-weapon spring attack ability was clearly intended to give you an additional off-hand attack and Bounding Assault was clearly intended to give you additional iterative attacks. In other words, if you had two weapons and a +12 BAB, you'd get +12/+12/+7 for a spring attack (and one +12 was obviously with the second weapon).

RAW, its more complicated. Both mention specifically that you can take exactly two attacks. They do not say "an additional." One says you attack "Once each" and the other specifies "second attack." Thus, by using one option, you've invalidated the other.

If you attack once each with two different weapons, you can no longer make a "second attack at a -5," as you already have made a second attack. Likewise, if you take the second attack at -5 through Bounding Assault, you can't use two weapon spring attack as you won't be attacking "once each," it'd be twice with one weapon and once with the other.

In short, by RAW, the effects don't stack or overlap, you can only use one at a time. That, however, does not mean you can't use the two targets part of Bounding Assault. You just can't get more than two attacks until you reach Rapid Blitz (which probably has far too high of a BAB prereq to ever be used pre-epic if at all).

As a side note, in both cases, you don't take the -2 (or -4 if you're using one-handers) penalty for two weapon fighting, because you are technically not using that option. And, as mentioned, by no means can you get extra off-hand attacks with Improved or Greater TWF.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TheGeek 03-27-08, 12:07 AM	As the title suggests, I'm wondering as to the possible synergy of the Tempest Prc's Two Weapon Spring Attack class feature, and the Bounding Assault/Rapid Blitz extension of the spring attack tree. Basically, my question is: If I have Tempest's Two Weapon Spring Attack and the Bounding Assault and Improved Two-weapon Fighting feats, do I receive four attacks on a spring attack? (Two for rapid blitz, one offhand for TW Spring attack, and another offhand for ITWF) If unknown, how would you houserule it?
Tordak 03-27-08, 10:58 AM	It appears that the wording of the feat suggest you get one additinal attack when using the attack action in bounding assault. The tempest 2-weapon spring attack say that you get 1 attack with each weapon as an attack action. I'd say this means you get 2 attacks on your first opponent and 1 on the second, or 3 attacks on one of the opponent you selected : 2 from 2-weapon spring attack, and an additional one from bounding assault.
TheGeek 03-27-08, 11:31 AM	Well, I was hoping for an official ruling, as the wording is a bit ambiguous. Found this: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46252 Has the Sage covered this? How would I even ask the Sage? I never found a thread or email to send questions to.
mplindustries 03-28-08, 03:48 AM	Well, I was hoping for an official ruling, as the wording is a bit ambiguous. Found this: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46252 Has the Sage covered this? How would I even ask the Sage? I never found a thread or email to send questions to. No answer you get from CustServ or from the Sage would be "official." Regardless, it would not be any better thought out or correct than anything a discussion on these boards would result in. #1 Here is the easy answer. Improved Two Weapon Fighting does absolutely nothing for a Spring Attacker, as you get no benefit from ITWF unless you make a full attack. For the harder question, here is the relevant wording: Two Weapon Spring Attack: "When a 5th level Tempest makes a spring attack, she can attack once each with two different weapons as an attack action." Bounding Assault: "While using an attack action with the Spring Attack feat, you can make a second attack with a -5 penalty." So there are basically two answers here. The RAW answer, and the (most likely) RAI answer. The RAI is pretty simple. Bounding Assault implies that the extra attack functions iteratively, and so it occurs independently from the second attack granted by the Tempest ability. The two-weapon spring attack ability was clearly intended to give you an additional off-hand attack and Bounding Assault was clearly intended to give you additional iterative attacks. In other words, if you had two weapons and a +12 BAB, you'd get +12/+12/+7 for a spring attack (and one +12 was obviously with the second weapon). RAW, its more complicated. Both mention specifically that you can take exactly two attacks. They do not say "an additional." One says you attack "Once each" and the other specifies "second attack." Thus, by using one option, you've invalidated the other. If you attack once each with two different weapons, you can no longer make a "second attack at a -5," as you already have made a second attack. Likewise, if you take the second attack at -5 through Bounding Assault, you can't use two weapon spring attack as you won't be attacking "once each," it'd be twice with one weapon and once with the other. In short, by RAW, the effects don't stack or overlap, you can only use one at a time. That, however, does not mean you can't use the two targets part of Bounding Assault. You just can't get more than two attacks until you reach Rapid Blitz (which probably has far too high of a BAB prereq to ever be used pre-epic if at all). As a side note, in both cases, you don't take the -2 (or -4 if you're using one-handers) penalty for two weapon fighting, because you are technically not using that option. And, as mentioned, by no means can you get extra off-hand attacks with Improved or Greater TWF.