Two Weapon Spring Attack and Rapid Blitz [Archive] - Wizards Community

Two Weapon Spring Attack and Rapid Blitz [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Garonak
10-31-07, 01:56 PM If you have a Tempest (CAdv) with both Rapid Blitz and Bounding Assault (PHB2), how many attacks would you get on a Spring Attack?
You get at least 4, three from spring attack, bounding assault and rapid blitz and one from your off-hand. But do you get six?

I think the main question is whether or not BA and RB gives an extra attack or an extra attack action. If you only get extra attacks you only get 4 attacks, if you get extra attack actions you get 6 attacks.
Wih
10-31-07, 11:53 PM Add in Slashing Flurry (PHBII) and Snap Kick (ToB) and that's 2 extra attacks. Whirling Frenzy (UA) for another extra one when raging. 7 attacks on a spring attack (assuming the one offhand only from Tempest).
Garonak
11-01-07, 02:05 AM Add in Slashing Flurry (PHBII) and Snap Kick (ToB) and that's 2 extra attacks. Whirling Frenzy (UA) for another extra one when raging. 7 attacks on a spring attack (assuming the one offhand only from Tempest).

Really wasn't what I was asking about.
Tordak
11-01-07, 08:52 AM That's a real toughy! The wording of both the ability an the feat is quite unclear with regard to each other and it is likely that the tempest was not taken into account when designing bounding assault. The 2-w spring attack says 'when using your attack action from spring attack you can attack with each weapon...' and bounding assault say 'when using the attack action from spring attack you can make an additional attack at -5...'.

So do you get 4 or 6 attack with rapid blitz and the tempest? I think both ruling are good, a DM could choose any, but 4 attacks would probably follow the 2-w fighting rules better. Now I don't think tempest automaticaly get improved 2-w and greater 2-w(I assumed most who take that PrC would though), but I suppose if they had the feat you could rule to let the additionnal attacks on each of the extra attack, altough I would suggest not because then a full attack (or almost full) becomes a standard action : the player moves, make 6 attacks, then moves back. Then again, it's not that much more than 4 attacks as a standard action.

I just don't think the rules are clear enough to make a decision based on them only.
Pechvarry
11-01-07, 09:04 AM I like the idea of pairing Improved TWF with Bounding Assault and Greater TWF with Rapid Blitz... honestly, I'd allow it because at this point you have:

-8 feats sunk into the combo
-3 levels dedicated to Tempest (or is it level 5 Tempest?)

...What else can this character do? Is it worth jumping through the hoops and getting 9 attacks/round, starting at -7 to attack and getting successively worse? Probably mistaken, but it seems like you've basically made a brutal/power thrower with a lot more work.
Tordak
11-01-07, 09:45 AM Yeah, that's true, the player has invested lots of effort already (tempest is 5 level), and beside even if the whole attack action is still pretty much a standard action, he has to move so his whole round is dedicated to that. Now it could make quite a powerful scout/tempest, if you invested all your human feats in it (or add a flaw or 2).
Garonak
11-02-07, 03:53 AM 1) Improved TWF is required for Tempest
2) Rapid Blitz requires BA18, so the the last attack(s) won't be available until then.
3) There's a lot of other ways to get a full attack with moving way before that.

Thanks for the responses, though it won't help much as we have a democratic group (with veto) and two of the players are against 6 attacks... Probaly because they are suspecting that I'm sending a lvl 18-19 character after their lvl 14 party, but I'm not sending one... I'm sending four :D
Pechvarry
11-02-07, 12:09 PM -8 feats sunk into the combo
-3 levels dedicated to Tempest (or is it level 5 Tempest?)

Just couldn't stand to let this go: it's actually 12 feats sunk into this combo (forgot about weapon focus/specialization/mastery/slashing fury chain).

Also put some thought into it: With 6 feats, a TWF Thrower could get -3 to attacks (assuming 30') to get an easy 8 attacks/round (4 BAB, 3 TWF, 1 Rapid Shot) and since they're making full attack actions (unlike the Rapid Blitzer), they can make use of Haste for #9. If the damage output is any lower, 3 more feats and 1 handed weapons instead of light weapons gives us higher base damage and a wee bit of power attack damage and still have the same attack rolls.

All with the same advantage of staying comfortably out of melee.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Garonak 10-31-07, 01:56 PM	If you have a Tempest (CAdv) with both Rapid Blitz and Bounding Assault (PHB2), how many attacks would you get on a Spring Attack? You get at least 4, three from spring attack, bounding assault and rapid blitz and one from your off-hand. But do you get six? I think the main question is whether or not BA and RB gives an extra attack or an extra attack action. If you only get extra attacks you only get 4 attacks, if you get extra attack actions you get 6 attacks.
Wih 10-31-07, 11:53 PM	Add in Slashing Flurry (PHBII) and Snap Kick (ToB) and that's 2 extra attacks. Whirling Frenzy (UA) for another extra one when raging. 7 attacks on a spring attack (assuming the one offhand only from Tempest).
Garonak 11-01-07, 02:05 AM	Add in Slashing Flurry (PHBII) and Snap Kick (ToB) and that's 2 extra attacks. Whirling Frenzy (UA) for another extra one when raging. 7 attacks on a spring attack (assuming the one offhand only from Tempest). Really wasn't what I was asking about.
Tordak 11-01-07, 08:52 AM	That's a real toughy! The wording of both the ability an the feat is quite unclear with regard to each other and it is likely that the tempest was not taken into account when designing bounding assault. The 2-w spring attack says 'when using your attack action from spring attack you can attack with each weapon...' and bounding assault say 'when using the attack action from spring attack you can make an additional attack at -5...'. So do you get 4 or 6 attack with rapid blitz and the tempest? I think both ruling are good, a DM could choose any, but 4 attacks would probably follow the 2-w fighting rules better. Now I don't think tempest automaticaly get improved 2-w and greater 2-w(I assumed most who take that PrC would though), but I suppose if they had the feat you could rule to let the additionnal attacks on each of the extra attack, altough I would suggest not because then a full attack (or almost full) becomes a standard action : the player moves, make 6 attacks, then moves back. Then again, it's not that much more than 4 attacks as a standard action. I just don't think the rules are clear enough to make a decision based on them only.
Pechvarry 11-01-07, 09:04 AM	I like the idea of pairing Improved TWF with Bounding Assault and Greater TWF with Rapid Blitz... honestly, I'd allow it because at this point you have: -8 feats sunk into the combo -3 levels dedicated to Tempest (or is it level 5 Tempest?) ...What else can this character do? Is it worth jumping through the hoops and getting 9 attacks/round, starting at -7 to attack and getting successively worse? Probably mistaken, but it seems like you've basically made a brutal/power thrower with a lot more work.
Tordak 11-01-07, 09:45 AM	Yeah, that's true, the player has invested lots of effort already (tempest is 5 level), and beside even if the whole attack action is still pretty much a standard action, he has to move so his whole round is dedicated to that. Now it could make quite a powerful scout/tempest, if you invested all your human feats in it (or add a flaw or 2).
Garonak 11-02-07, 03:53 AM	1) Improved TWF is required for Tempest 2) Rapid Blitz requires BA18, so the the last attack(s) won't be available until then. 3) There's a lot of other ways to get a full attack with moving way before that. Thanks for the responses, though it won't help much as we have a democratic group (with veto) and two of the players are against 6 attacks... Probaly because they are suspecting that I'm sending a lvl 18-19 character after their lvl 14 party, but I'm not sending one... I'm sending four :D
Pechvarry 11-02-07, 12:09 PM	-8 feats sunk into the combo -3 levels dedicated to Tempest (or is it level 5 Tempest?) Just couldn't stand to let this go: it's actually 12 feats sunk into this combo (forgot about weapon focus/specialization/mastery/slashing fury chain). Also put some thought into it: With 6 feats, a TWF Thrower could get -3 to attacks (assuming 30') to get an easy 8 attacks/round (4 BAB, 3 TWF, 1 Rapid Shot) and since they're making full attack actions (unlike the Rapid Blitzer), they can make use of Haste for #9. If the damage output is any lower, 3 more feats and 1 handed weapons instead of light weapons gives us higher base damage and a wee bit of power attack damage and still have the same attack rolls. All with the same advantage of staying comfortably out of melee.