UMD and Artifacts/Relics [Archive] - Wizards Community

UMD and Artifacts/Relics [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ghimi
11-21-07, 07:04 PM Heya everyone.

Ok, got a question. I got a player in my game with a very high umd score. As such he's able to emulate everything listed in the phb like alignment etc. We recently came across an artifact and a relic. the artifact is listed that you have to have certain requirements to be able to use it, as well as the relic. The relic also says you have to worship the deity of the relic to be able to use it. Now the PC with the high UMD and doesn't meet the requirements for either the artifact or the relic, says that he should be able to use the items by emulating the requirements for both items via the UMD skill.

As the DM, I'm inclined to say that he shouldn't be able to emulate requirements for a relic or artifact, but as the pc pointed out, there's nothing in the rulebooks as far as we know that says that he can't emulate the requirements.

Does anyone have any info on UMD in regards to working with artifacts and relics? Also, if the relic or artifact is an intelligent item, can he still emulate via UMD?
draco1119
11-22-07, 06:32 AM Well... UMD is rolled for each use, and I'm assuming the artifact and/or Relic are going to be continuous use, correct?

As DM, you could let him use them... and roll a UMD check every round/minute/hour/day/etc. Eventually, he fails.
Alternatively, if either of the items is intelligent, you could make him roll Bluff vs. Sense Motive.
Dheran
11-22-07, 12:37 PM Well... UMD is rolled for each use, and I'm assuming the artifact and/or Relic are going to be continuous use, correct?

As DM, you could let him use them... and roll a UMD check every round/minute/hour/day/etc It really helps to pay attention to the rules rather than just guessing: You make a Use Magic Device check each time you activate a device such as a wand. If you are using the check to emulate an alignment or some other quality in an ongoing manner, you need to make the relevant Use Magic Device check once per hour. As far as emulating being a worshiper of a particular deity, that's certainly reasonable with Use Magic Device; it's just the DC that's at issue. It should be more than the DC 30 to Emulate an alignment, and no more than the DC 40 to Emulate a Particular Individual (that number coming from a Dragon magazine adventure). So your PC should be able to make use of the artifact with a UMD check each hour, once you decide what that DC is (35 or thereabouts). The relic is another matter, because worshiping the appropriate deity is only part of the activation requirement. There is no UMD option to Emulate a Feat (in this case True Believer), and Use Magic Device can't actually supply the nth level spell otherwise required to make a relic work properly. So your PC is just another (emulated) deity worshiper when it comes to relics, and that provides no special benefit.
sapient
11-23-07, 03:23 PM As far as emulating being a worshiper of a particular deity, that's certainly reasonable with Use Magic Device; it's just the DC that's at issue.

I think that should be subject to the DMs discretion, depending on the role of gods in the particular campaign setting. In a world where gods interact with their worshipers in several ways - granting spells to clerics and paladins for example - it might very well be impossible. The way gods can strip paladins of their powers for violating their codes for example, implies that the gods have ways of gaining instant knowledge about players actions when it's relevant, as well as insight into the motivations behind them.

If that is the case, then fooling the gods should probably be impossible - or for sake of balance, paladins or other servants of the gods should be granted some similar leeway to bending the rules they are forced to follow. (Possibly using bluff-checks to maintain that they have misinterpretated the commandments or something like that.)

But of course, the DM might also rule that as long as the players behaviour is in a general way consistent to the code or ethos of the god in question, and he is using UMD to emulate being a worshiper (which might also require actual actions of worship and/or compliance to the religions commandments as part of the process of emulation) the gods know he isn't but won't care. (After all he is doing what the god want him to...) But any action that is inconsistent might force him to make an immediate UMD-check, possible with a negative circumstance modifier.

On the other hand in settings like Eberron were it is expressly said that the gods DON'T interact with their followers and spells and powers are granted by lesser beings, it should be possible to fool them.

What I want to say is, gods are so different entities then the mere physical/mental circumstances that feats, alignments, abilities and other requirements are representing, they probably shouldn't be treated as just another kind of circumstance rule mechanic...
Tedronai
11-23-07, 06:02 PM The point of UMD in that case is not 'fooling the gods', but rather fooling the item, a task that is far easier to accomplish. Even if that item happens to be intelligent, it's not a GOD.
sapient
11-23-07, 08:08 PM But a relic is not an object that grants powers in itself. The description of relics in Complete Divine (where they were introduced) says that a "character must devote a measure of spiritual energy to keep open a divine connection between the relic he wields and his diety's power." That makes it more of divine focus that magical object. So "fooling" the item won't help. You need that link to the god in question. So you would still end up trying to fool a god...

Although it isn't expressly stated in the description of relics, I would take this to mean that UMD is not that useful in relation to relics. Myself, I would still allow some use. For example a non-caster that have no spell-slots to sacrifice could use UMD there, analogous to how UMD is used to activate e.g. wands without having the spell in ones spell-list. (Say a rouge that worships the diety but can't cast spells...) But not as a "Bluff-check against the gods".
Roelandt
11-28-07, 04:40 PM Heya everyone.

As the DM, I'm inclined to say that he shouldn't be able to emulate requirements for a relic or artifact, but as the pc pointed out, there's nothing in the rulebooks as far as we know that says that he can't emulate the requirements.

Does anyone have any info on UMD in regards to working with artifacts and relics? Also, if the relic or artifact is an intelligent item, can he still emulate via UMD?

Actually, you solved the issue in your post.

I see no reason why he can't use UMD either...but that might not be a good idea (from his character's viewpoint). Sure UMD will allow its use, but the artifact will not be deceivedy by any stretch as to the true nature of the user.

I believe you mentioned the artifact is intelligent. Anyone care to guess how the Artifact is going to react if someone of an opposing alignment or diety tries to use it? I think the artifact would either, not cooperate with the character in anyway, harm the silly user, or control the user in pursuing its alignment, or diety dictates. Review the section in the DMG regarding Intellient Items and Ego. Remember, it's an artifact, and is simply going to have an enormous ego and probably be able to remain in control pretty much whenever it wants unless the player has godlike stats.

Let him use it! The player is NOT going to enjoy the ride. Artifacts are dangerous and tricky...let alone trying to use something that doesn't WANT to be used by you! I'm guessing that after the artifact has demanded periodic sacrifices, refused to operate if used in any way opposing its goals, attacked the user if it disagrees with it, or demands that the player change alignments and diety to match its own, the player will shortly want to be rid of it...assuming the artifact lets him. The artifact may prefer to torment an "unbeliever," or to convert one. This player is really CHOOSING to inflict a major cursed item on himself!!

As a player, I would choose the path of wisdom and not attempt to use UMD on an artifact...let alone an intelligent one!!!!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ghimi 11-21-07, 07:04 PM	Heya everyone. Ok, got a question. I got a player in my game with a very high umd score. As such he's able to emulate everything listed in the phb like alignment etc. We recently came across an artifact and a relic. the artifact is listed that you have to have certain requirements to be able to use it, as well as the relic. The relic also says you have to worship the deity of the relic to be able to use it. Now the PC with the high UMD and doesn't meet the requirements for either the artifact or the relic, says that he should be able to use the items by emulating the requirements for both items via the UMD skill. As the DM, I'm inclined to say that he shouldn't be able to emulate requirements for a relic or artifact, but as the pc pointed out, there's nothing in the rulebooks as far as we know that says that he can't emulate the requirements. Does anyone have any info on UMD in regards to working with artifacts and relics? Also, if the relic or artifact is an intelligent item, can he still emulate via UMD?
draco1119 11-22-07, 06:32 AM	Well... UMD is rolled for each use, and I'm assuming the artifact and/or Relic are going to be continuous use, correct? As DM, you could let him use them... and roll a UMD check every round/minute/hour/day/etc. Eventually, he fails. Alternatively, if either of the items is intelligent, you could make him roll Bluff vs. Sense Motive.
Dheran 11-22-07, 12:37 PM	Well... UMD is rolled for each use, and I'm assuming the artifact and/or Relic are going to be continuous use, correct? As DM, you could let him use them... and roll a UMD check every round/minute/hour/day/etc It really helps to pay attention to the rules rather than just guessing: You make a Use Magic Device check each time you activate a device such as a wand. If you are using the check to emulate an alignment or some other quality in an ongoing manner, you need to make the relevant Use Magic Device check once per hour. As far as emulating being a worshiper of a particular deity, that's certainly reasonable with Use Magic Device; it's just the DC that's at issue. It should be more than the DC 30 to Emulate an alignment, and no more than the DC 40 to Emulate a Particular Individual (that number coming from a Dragon magazine adventure). So your PC should be able to make use of the artifact with a UMD check each hour, once you decide what that DC is (35 or thereabouts). The relic is another matter, because worshiping the appropriate deity is only part of the activation requirement. There is no UMD option to Emulate a Feat (in this case True Believer), and Use Magic Device can't actually supply the nth level spell otherwise required to make a relic work properly. So your PC is just another (emulated) deity worshiper when it comes to relics, and that provides no special benefit.
sapient 11-23-07, 03:23 PM	As far as emulating being a worshiper of a particular deity, that's certainly reasonable with Use Magic Device; it's just the DC that's at issue. I think that should be subject to the DMs discretion, depending on the role of gods in the particular campaign setting. In a world where gods interact with their worshipers in several ways - granting spells to clerics and paladins for example - it might very well be impossible. The way gods can strip paladins of their powers for violating their codes for example, implies that the gods have ways of gaining instant knowledge about players actions when it's relevant, as well as insight into the motivations behind them. If that is the case, then fooling the gods should probably be impossible - or for sake of balance, paladins or other servants of the gods should be granted some similar leeway to bending the rules they are forced to follow. (Possibly using bluff-checks to maintain that they have misinterpretated the commandments or something like that.) But of course, the DM might also rule that as long as the players behaviour is in a general way consistent to the code or ethos of the god in question, and he is using UMD to emulate being a worshiper (which might also require actual actions of worship and/or compliance to the religions commandments as part of the process of emulation) the gods know he isn't but won't care. (After all he is doing what the god want him to...) But any action that is inconsistent might force him to make an immediate UMD-check, possible with a negative circumstance modifier. On the other hand in settings like Eberron were it is expressly said that the gods DON'T interact with their followers and spells and powers are granted by lesser beings, it should be possible to fool them. What I want to say is, gods are so different entities then the mere physical/mental circumstances that feats, alignments, abilities and other requirements are representing, they probably shouldn't be treated as just another kind of circumstance rule mechanic...
Tedronai 11-23-07, 06:02 PM	The point of UMD in that case is not 'fooling the gods', but rather fooling the item, a task that is far easier to accomplish. Even if that item happens to be intelligent, it's not a GOD.
sapient 11-23-07, 08:08 PM	But a relic is not an object that grants powers in itself. The description of relics in Complete Divine (where they were introduced) says that a "character must devote a measure of spiritual energy to keep open a divine connection between the relic he wields and his diety's power." That makes it more of divine focus that magical object. So "fooling" the item won't help. You need that link to the god in question. So you would still end up trying to fool a god... Although it isn't expressly stated in the description of relics, I would take this to mean that UMD is not that useful in relation to relics. Myself, I would still allow some use. For example a non-caster that have no spell-slots to sacrifice could use UMD there, analogous to how UMD is used to activate e.g. wands without having the spell in ones spell-list. (Say a rouge that worships the diety but can't cast spells...) But not as a "Bluff-check against the gods".
Roelandt 11-28-07, 04:40 PM	Heya everyone. As the DM, I'm inclined to say that he shouldn't be able to emulate requirements for a relic or artifact, but as the pc pointed out, there's nothing in the rulebooks as far as we know that says that he can't emulate the requirements. Does anyone have any info on UMD in regards to working with artifacts and relics? Also, if the relic or artifact is an intelligent item, can he still emulate via UMD? Actually, you solved the issue in your post. I see no reason why he can't use UMD either...but that might not be a good idea (from his character's viewpoint). Sure UMD will allow its use, but the artifact will not be deceivedy by any stretch as to the true nature of the user. I believe you mentioned the artifact is intelligent. Anyone care to guess how the Artifact is going to react if someone of an opposing alignment or diety tries to use it? I think the artifact would either, not cooperate with the character in anyway, harm the silly user, or control the user in pursuing its alignment, or diety dictates. Review the section in the DMG regarding Intellient Items and Ego. Remember, it's an artifact, and is simply going to have an enormous ego and probably be able to remain in control pretty much whenever it wants unless the player has godlike stats. Let him use it! The player is NOT going to enjoy the ride. Artifacts are dangerous and tricky...let alone trying to use something that doesn't WANT to be used by you! I'm guessing that after the artifact has demanded periodic sacrifices, refused to operate if used in any way opposing its goals, attacked the user if it disagrees with it, or demands that the player change alignments and diety to match its own, the player will shortly want to be rid of it...assuming the artifact lets him. The artifact may prefer to torment an "unbeliever," or to convert one. This player is really CHOOSING to inflict a major cursed item on himself!! As a player, I would choose the path of wisdom and not attempt to use UMD on an artifact...let alone an intelligent one!!!!