UMD to simulate CL for item creation [Archive] - Wizards Community

UMD to simulate CL for item creation [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
mark1
08-01-07, 07:05 PM Is this possible?

What is the DC?

Thanks in advance.
tarkin
08-01-07, 07:21 PM Only if you are a Warlock of sufficient level.

(or apparently an artificer - see jaelis below) It is a class ability, not something that anyone with that skill can do.

Also, it was a moronic idea. It should have been spellcraft, not UMD. UMD has nothing to do with making magic items or spellcasting, while spellcraft does.
Catam
08-01-07, 08:51 PM Actually, I find this to be an interesting question... contrary to Tarkin's "opinion" as he so eloquently stated it. But I do not believe it is possible because you need to take crafting feats only available to characters able to actually cast spells, assuming you want to craft magic items, armors, weapons, wands, rods, or staffs. At this point it would depend on the DM to allow the non-casting character to take the creation feat based on his UMD. If you understand the concept of what a feat is to a character in the game (your character taking the time to be trained in a specific ability by practicing or even apprenticing), then a DM may allow a player to actually take a crafting feat if (possibly through good roleplay) his character can prove to the character who will be teaching him that he can cast spells, not from arcane or divine knowledge but from scrolls and other devices. If I were running a game I might allow something like that to happen, but when it was time for the character to use his UMD to cast a spell in creating a magical object, I think I would have a modified DC. The standard DC for UMD in using a scroll is 20 + the caster level. So, if a player with craft wand were to cast fireball from a scroll onto the wand, he would need to give the caster level he is trying to emulate then roll his UMD for the creation. I would add the DC for casting the scroll (20 + caster level of the original maker of the scroll) and the target caster level for the wand (minimum 5 caster level for fireball). Since the minimum on the scroll is 5, the minimum of the DC for this type of wand creation would be 30, at least the way I would do it. I would just use the standard xp penalties and gold costs. It seems like it would be complicated enough. The easiest way to do this probably would be to have your character buy what he needs from a merchant. But what fun is that?!? Reference PH pg 85 (UMD skill), PH pg 92 (crafting feats) and DMG pg 282 (crafting magic items). Hopefully this answered your question... but I am curious what item(s) you are trying to create...?
jaelis
08-01-07, 08:59 PM Artificers also have this ability.

But it is clear that the normal rules don't allow it. UMD allows you to activate an item, while item creation requires you to cast a spell.

Though you could, for instance, use UMD to activate a scroll and use that as the source of the spell when creating an item. Wasn't sure about that so I looked it up:

Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item’s creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed).
mark1
08-01-07, 09:44 PM I am playing in a high level game.

1 level of cleric, the rest in monk.

Practiced spell caster gets me craft wondrous item (3rd) and craft arms & armor (5th) then at epic levels the appropriate feats.

To make weapons and bracers, but basically need 3 CL/+.

thanks again for the replies.
tarkin
08-01-07, 09:50 PM Actually, I believe there is a Sage ruling that Practicesd spell caster does not qualify you for any feats.

But I have not actually seen the ruling, just heard other people mention it, and a literal reading of the feat seems to me that it would qualify you.

I would ask your DM how he feels about it before committing to anything.
Nom
08-01-07, 09:53 PM Your caster level is (currently) 5. You cannot be the primary creator for an item that requires a caster level greater than 5, either explicitly or due to the minimum CL of a spell used to create the item.

You can do any of the following (among other things):

* Provide the feat to allow another character to create an item using their caster level. That character must provide the XP.

* Use UMD to trigger a scroll to provide a spell requirement. This is rarely economical. Note that you don't need UMD to trigger a wand or staff.
Catam
08-04-07, 07:47 PM Your caster level is (currently) 5. You cannot be the primary creator for an item that requires a caster level greater than 5, either explicitly or due to the minimum CL of a spell used to create the item.

Its not that I disagree but the nature of the UMD skill is not wholly based on CL. It is based on the character's charisma based skill in "deceiving" an item of magic. The item being created and the place the essence from which the spell is created doesn't really know (or care) who is casting what. Don't rule this to death. The DM is always allowed enough flexibility within the game he runs to decide things like this for himself. It is an interesting situation with many different outcomes. I would let someone take the feats and then try to create the item... with the potential of the UMD skill to fail. If I were the DM, the spell would be consumed (be it from a scroll or a charge on a wand) and the xp penalty would be assessed whether the UMD fails or not. If it fails and by how much would determine what happens to the caster and the target material. He could destroy the material and/or do serious damage to himself. As a DM, I drool at the chance to have a character have those chances... but I would be fair and let the dice determine exatly what happens... honest. I say do it and have fun with it.
StruckingFuggle
08-04-07, 08:54 PM Caster level is a prerequisite for casting feats.

It is not, however, a prerequisite for creating any sort of item except for wands and scrolls. And maybe potions. But not for wonderous items or magical arms and armor.

Speaking of which, I can't speak of the Artifacer, but the Warlock has no such ability dealing with caster level when it comes to creating items - Deceive Item, rather, allows you to have access to any spell in existence in regards to the prerequisite spells necessary for item creation.

(which is why they're an Archivist's best friend if they take Scribe Scroll)
Mojo_Rat
08-04-07, 11:56 PM Err far as i know just about every magic item has a CL listed. Although that may in fact be Whats needed for the spells involved I dont know. As has been said before though UMD by itself does not let you emulate CL at all (aside apparently from the artificer)
kjenks
08-05-07, 12:26 AM Err far as i know just about every magic item has a CL listed. Although that may in fact be Whats needed for the spells involved I dont know. As has been said before though UMD by itself does not let you emulate CL at all (aside apparently from the artificer)

That's true, but the DMG Errata removed that CL as a prerequisite for creating the item.

DMG Errata
===
Caster Level
Dungeon Master’s Guide, page 215
Problem: The last two sentences in the section on Caster
Level are ambiguous and potentially misleading.
Solution: Replace with this text: For other magic items, the
caster level is determined by the creator. The minimum caster
level is that which is needed to meet the prerequisites given.
===
Nom
08-05-07, 12:55 AM As kjenks said, the CL entry is just a "typical" CL, which in a few cases is actually less than the minimum CL of the item. The minimum CL of the item is the minimum CL of the spells and any other requirements used in its creation. (Yes, I know the FAQ at one point says otherwise, but this conflicts with several references in the DMG and the Rules of the Game article as well).

UMD can't actually provide a CL. Even artificers (ECS pg 32), for example, can't use UMD to set the creator's caster level. They do get a special +2 bonus to CL for the purpose of meeting this requirement.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
mark1 08-01-07, 07:05 PM	Is this possible? What is the DC? Thanks in advance.
tarkin 08-01-07, 07:21 PM	Only if you are a Warlock of sufficient level. (or apparently an artificer - see jaelis below) It is a class ability, not something that anyone with that skill can do. Also, it was a moronic idea. It should have been spellcraft, not UMD. UMD has nothing to do with making magic items or spellcasting, while spellcraft does.
Catam 08-01-07, 08:51 PM	Actually, I find this to be an interesting question... contrary to Tarkin's "opinion" as he so eloquently stated it. But I do not believe it is possible because you need to take crafting feats only available to characters able to actually cast spells, assuming you want to craft magic items, armors, weapons, wands, rods, or staffs. At this point it would depend on the DM to allow the non-casting character to take the creation feat based on his UMD. If you understand the concept of what a feat is to a character in the game (your character taking the time to be trained in a specific ability by practicing or even apprenticing), then a DM may allow a player to actually take a crafting feat if (possibly through good roleplay) his character can prove to the character who will be teaching him that he can cast spells, not from arcane or divine knowledge but from scrolls and other devices. If I were running a game I might allow something like that to happen, but when it was time for the character to use his UMD to cast a spell in creating a magical object, I think I would have a modified DC. The standard DC for UMD in using a scroll is 20 + the caster level. So, if a player with craft wand were to cast fireball from a scroll onto the wand, he would need to give the caster level he is trying to emulate then roll his UMD for the creation. I would add the DC for casting the scroll (20 + caster level of the original maker of the scroll) and the target caster level for the wand (minimum 5 caster level for fireball). Since the minimum on the scroll is 5, the minimum of the DC for this type of wand creation would be 30, at least the way I would do it. I would just use the standard xp penalties and gold costs. It seems like it would be complicated enough. The easiest way to do this probably would be to have your character buy what he needs from a merchant. But what fun is that?!? Reference PH pg 85 (UMD skill), PH pg 92 (crafting feats) and DMG pg 282 (crafting magic items). Hopefully this answered your question... but I am curious what item(s) you are trying to create...?
jaelis 08-01-07, 08:59 PM	Artificers also have this ability. But it is clear that the normal rules don't allow it. UMD allows you to activate an item, while item creation requires you to cast a spell. Though you could, for instance, use UMD to activate a scroll and use that as the source of the spell when creating an item. Wasn't sure about that so I looked it up: Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item’s creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed).
mark1 08-01-07, 09:44 PM	I am playing in a high level game. 1 level of cleric, the rest in monk. Practiced spell caster gets me craft wondrous item (3rd) and craft arms & armor (5th) then at epic levels the appropriate feats. To make weapons and bracers, but basically need 3 CL/+. thanks again for the replies.
tarkin 08-01-07, 09:50 PM	Actually, I believe there is a Sage ruling that Practicesd spell caster does not qualify you for any feats. But I have not actually seen the ruling, just heard other people mention it, and a literal reading of the feat seems to me that it would qualify you. I would ask your DM how he feels about it before committing to anything.
Nom 08-01-07, 09:53 PM	Your caster level is (currently) 5. You cannot be the primary creator for an item that requires a caster level greater than 5, either explicitly or due to the minimum CL of a spell used to create the item. You can do any of the following (among other things): * Provide the feat to allow another character to create an item using their caster level. That character must provide the XP. * Use UMD to trigger a scroll to provide a spell requirement. This is rarely economical. Note that you don't need UMD to trigger a wand or staff.
Catam 08-04-07, 07:47 PM	Your caster level is (currently) 5. You cannot be the primary creator for an item that requires a caster level greater than 5, either explicitly or due to the minimum CL of a spell used to create the item. Its not that I disagree but the nature of the UMD skill is not wholly based on CL. It is based on the character's charisma based skill in "deceiving" an item of magic. The item being created and the place the essence from which the spell is created doesn't really know (or care) who is casting what. Don't rule this to death. The DM is always allowed enough flexibility within the game he runs to decide things like this for himself. It is an interesting situation with many different outcomes. I would let someone take the feats and then try to create the item... with the potential of the UMD skill to fail. If I were the DM, the spell would be consumed (be it from a scroll or a charge on a wand) and the xp penalty would be assessed whether the UMD fails or not. If it fails and by how much would determine what happens to the caster and the target material. He could destroy the material and/or do serious damage to himself. As a DM, I drool at the chance to have a character have those chances... but I would be fair and let the dice determine exatly what happens... honest. I say do it and have fun with it.
StruckingFuggle 08-04-07, 08:54 PM	Caster level is a prerequisite for casting feats. It is not, however, a prerequisite for creating any sort of item except for wands and scrolls. And maybe potions. But not for wonderous items or magical arms and armor. Speaking of which, I can't speak of the Artifacer, but the Warlock has no such ability dealing with caster level when it comes to creating items - Deceive Item, rather, allows you to have access to any spell in existence in regards to the prerequisite spells necessary for item creation. (which is why they're an Archivist's best friend if they take Scribe Scroll)
Mojo_Rat 08-04-07, 11:56 PM	Err far as i know just about every magic item has a CL listed. Although that may in fact be Whats needed for the spells involved I dont know. As has been said before though UMD by itself does not let you emulate CL at all (aside apparently from the artificer)
kjenks 08-05-07, 12:26 AM	Err far as i know just about every magic item has a CL listed. Although that may in fact be Whats needed for the spells involved I dont know. As has been said before though UMD by itself does not let you emulate CL at all (aside apparently from the artificer) That's true, but the DMG Errata removed that CL as a prerequisite for creating the item. DMG Errata === Caster Level Dungeon Master’s Guide, page 215 Problem: The last two sentences in the section on Caster Level are ambiguous and potentially misleading. Solution: Replace with this text: For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the creator. The minimum caster level is that which is needed to meet the prerequisites given. ===
Nom 08-05-07, 12:55 AM	As kjenks said, the CL entry is just a "typical" CL, which in a few cases is actually less than the minimum CL of the item. The minimum CL of the item is the minimum CL of the spells and any other requirements used in its creation. (Yes, I know the FAQ at one point says otherwise, but this conflicts with several references in the DMG and the Rules of the Game article as well). UMD can't actually provide a CL. Even artificers (ECS pg 32), for example, can't use UMD to set the creator's caster level. They do get a special +2 bonus to CL for the purpose of meeting this requirement.