Post/Author/DateTime	Post
CandleZ792 12-01-07, 04:51 PM	Lots of people have been argueing about whether or not you can use two weapon fighting with unarmed strikes, and so I ask can you use two weapon fighting with unarmed strikes, specifically while making a Flurry of Blows?
Sakaki22 12-01-07, 07:09 PM	Before this thread becomes yet another madhouse about the stacking of two weapon fighting and flurry of blows, I'll quickly chime in that, ignoring flurry, it is impossible to deny that you can use unarmed strikes while two weapon fighting. Monk or no Monk, unarmed strike is a weapon. You use weapons while two weapon fighting. Personally, I believe two weapon fighting and flurry of blows do work together, but I'm not gonna listen to the next three pages debating that back and forth. Have fun!
dman11235 12-01-07, 07:51 PM	I believe (and the FAQ supports this) that you CAN use TWF with unarmed strikes AND flurry. What I do not believe is that you may TWF using ONLY unarmed strikes. That is all I will say. Have fun with the next thee thousand pages.
tygreen101 12-01-07, 08:29 PM	yes, the FAQ has about 3 questions in ref to FoB and 1 of them gives the impression that each of your FoB attacks is considered main hand attacks so if you take the TWF tree (TWF, Improved TWF and Greater TWF and then at level 21 pick up Perfect TWF which gives you 1 off hand per main hand attack for like a total of 12 attacks in 1 round and if you have at least 11 levels in monk and 4 level in the PrC tempest you would have 6 attacks at your full BAB of +15 plus your str or dex bonus to hit. a fighter can't get that many attacks and with 1 feat you go from 8 attacks at level 20 to 12 attacks at level 21. I personally feel it's ludicrous, but it's not my game. Ask your DM to make a judgment and if he/she OKs it, milk it for all it's worth. I don't like it, but if your DM allows it, that's on them. May I also advise that you work (have high dex and wis, take dodge and bracers of armor maybe even a ring that let's you cast shield) to max out your AC to really show that it's an UBER concept. good luck.
dman11235 12-01-07, 09:54 PM	Okay I lied. Here's my last post in this thread. That reasoning on flurry of blows and PTWF is bogus. Haste won't be multiplied, and speed weapons won't be multiplied, so why should flurry? It merely adds to your total attacks in a round. Hey, there's even reason to believe that flurry doesn't stack with haste (because it is an effect that adds to the number of attacks in a round).
tygreen101 12-02-07, 12:17 AM	personally, I see FoB as a specialized variant of TWF. They don't stack because they are the same feat. for specializing in just a handful of weapons, you get the benefit as having a TWF with penalties that naturally diminish over the progression of the monk class. up until the tempest PrC, there was no way to reduce the TWF penalties to 0. If you take a moment to read PHB pg 41 top left of the page is a paragraph that starts with "In the case of the quarterstaff" In this paragraph is an example of an 8th level monk using FoB making two attacks with the quarterstaff (one with each end) at a +5 bonus and an unarmed strike at +0. If someone is using TWF at +5/+5/+0 they must have a BAB of +7. An 8th level monk only has +6 BAB, but an 8th level monk only has -1 penalty to FoB. If this 8th level monk is using both ends of her quarterstaff at +5/+5 and then how can you stack TWF with FoB because the monk's left hand is already being used with FoB? but the FAQ allows it so I must be reading the PHB wrong.
risner 12-02-07, 12:37 AM	Lots of people have been argueing about whether or not you can use two weapon fighting with unarmed strikes, and so I ask can you use two weapon fighting with unarmed strikes, specifically while making a Flurry of Blows? It is heavily debated, and there is no direct evidence either way. In short, it becomes a "ask your DM" question. Things discusses in this thread that is heavily debated: 1) Can you TWF with just Unarmed Strikes? 2) Can you combine Flurry with TWF? 3) Does PTWF give exactly one attack if your BAB is 16+ or does it give one attack per main hand? All three of those are heated debates and neither side can quote anything in RAW or FAW to prove their case (with the exception of #2 where RotG says no you can't and FAQ says yes you can.)
Egres 12-02-07, 04:00 AM	What I do not believe is that you may TWF using ONLY unarmed strikes. From the SRD: Two-Weapon Fighting * If your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. (An unarmed strike is always considered light.) What rules can you cite to support your opinion?
jaelis 12-02-07, 09:26 AM	Before this thread becomes yet another madhouse about the stacking of two weapon fighting and flurry of blows, I'll quickly chime in that, ignoring flurry, it is impossible to deny that you can use unarmed strikes while two weapon fighting. Monk or no Monk, unarmed strike is a weapon. You use weapons while two weapon fighting. It is however, entirely possible to deny that you can TWF with only unarmed strikes. It just depends on whether you think you have one "unarmed strike weapon" or multiple ones. So yeah, ask your DM. What rules can you cite to support your opinion? None, but the rule you cited doesn't support your opinion either. No more than it supports TWFing with a single dagger.
tygreen101 12-02-07, 09:37 AM	What rules can you cite to support your opinion? I've already cited it. PHB page 41. read the paragraph under the heading of In the case of the quarterstaff. third sentence: "For example, an 8th level monk could make two attacks with the quarterstaff (one with each end) at +5 attack bonus and one unarmed strike at a +0 attack bonus" an 8th level monk has a +6 BAB. and uses FoB at +5/+5/+0 and to attack with each end of the quarterstaff, she needs to use both her right hand AND her left hand. and we all know that if someone with a +6 BAB used TWF, their attacks would be at +4/+4/-1 if the monk is already using both the right hand AND the left hand to FoB, which hand is the monk using to TWF?
risner 12-02-07, 09:59 AM	* If your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. (An unarmed strike is always considered light.)[/I] What rules can you cite to support your opinion? There is no rule that asserts you can two weapon fight with only unarmed. The rule you cited doesn't address the allowance of using "two" unarmed strike weapons. In short, it isn't covered in the rules and as a result it is DM fiat whether or not you can TWF with just unarmed strike weapons.
blade265 12-02-07, 10:26 AM	if the monk is already using both the right hand AND the left hand to FoB, which hand is the monk using to TWF? PHB p41 Flurry of Blows "When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham). She may attack with unarmed strikes and special monk weapons interchangeably as desired. When using weapons as part of a flurry of blows, a monk applies her Strength bonus (not Str bonus x 1-1/2 or x1/2) to her damage rolls for all successful attacks, whether she wields a weapon in one or both hands. The monk can’t use any weapon other than a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows. In the case of the quarterstaff, each end counts as a separate weapon for the purpose of using the flurry of blows ability. Even though the quarterstaff requires two hands to use, a monk may still intersperse unarmed strikes with quarterstaff strikes, assuming that she has enough attacks in her flurry of blows routine to do so." PHB p41 Unarmed Strike Unarmed Strike: At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full.
CandleZ792 12-02-07, 01:37 PM	yes, the FAQ has about 3 questions in ref to FoB and 1 of them gives the impression that each of your FoB attacks is considered main hand attacks so if you take the TWF tree (TWF, Improved TWF and Greater TWF and then at level 21 pick up Perfect TWF which gives you 1 off hand per main hand attack for like a total of 12 attacks in 1 round and if you have at least 11 levels in monk and 4 level in the PrC tempest you would have 6 attacks at your full BAB of +15 plus your str or dex bonus to hit. a fighter can't get that many attacks and with 1 feat you go from 8 attacks at level 20 to 12 attacks at level 21. I personally feel it's ludicrous, but it's not my game. Ask your DM to make a judgment and if he/she OKs it, milk it for all it's worth. My Dm is alowing it, as I argued with him intill he did. I don't like it, but if your DM allows it, that's on them. May I also advise that you work (have high dex and wis, take dodge and bracers of armor maybe even a ring that let's you cast shield) to max out your AC to really show that it's an UBER concept. As for the thing about UBER, we're playing epic gestalt (level 30+), with me playing a Monk 20/Fighter 20 /Kensai 10/Dervish 10.
risner 12-02-07, 08:22 PM	My Dm is alowing it, as I argued with him intill he did. That was real mature.
tygreen101 12-02-07, 09:22 PM	PHB p41 Flurry of Blows "When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham). She may attack with unarmed strikes and special monk weapons interchangeably as desired. When using weapons as part of a flurry of blows, a monk applies her Strength bonus (not Str bonus x 1-1/2 or x1/2) to her damage rolls for all successful attacks, whether she wields a weapon in one or both hands. The monk can’t use any weapon other than a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows. In the case of the quarterstaff, each end counts as a separate weapon for the purpose of using the flurry of blows ability. Even though the quarterstaff requires two hands to use, a monk may still intersperse unarmed strikes with quarterstaff strikes, assuming that she has enough attacks in her flurry of blows routine to do so." PHB p41 Unarmed Strike Unarmed Strike: At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full. blade265, I never said that a monk couldn't use an unarmed strike while holding a weapon in either hand. TWF makes a big distinction about main hand attacks and off hand attacks. a monks unarmed strike says that there is no off hand when a monk is fighting unarmed. the FoB example given uses FoB to attack with both ends of the quarterstaff, i.e. one end with the right(main) hand and one with the left(off) hand. since the monk is using the off hand with FoB he gets his full strength bonus, how can the monk then go and use his off-hand again in a different way to get TWF with half strength bonus. and then he says "oh, wait, when I hit you with my left hand twice, once during FoB and once with TWF so the first one gives me my full STR bonus, but the TWF hit only gets half the STR bonus. as I read the paragraph that starts "In the case of the quarterstaff" In this paragraph it says that using FoB the 8th level attacks with both ends of the quarterstaff. how can he hit with a weapon in his left hand(unarmed or other wise) using FoB and then hit again with the left hand using TWF and because he hit with TWF the second time, he forgot all of his training that allows hit to hit with his left hand at his full STR bonus and hits with the quarterstaff at half STR bonus?
dman11235 12-02-07, 09:58 PM	No, no, no, your on hand is not your right hand. It shouldn't be called on or off-hand, it should be called something else. That gets so many people confused. Oh, and I lied again. You're on-hand is merely the set of attacks that you choose to get your full strength with as a monk. Your off-hand is the set of attacks with which you deal 1/2 strength with. It's not dependant on which actual hand you use for a monk.
tygreen101 12-02-07, 10:29 PM	No, no, no, your on hand is not your right hand. It shouldn't be called on or off-hand, it should be called something else. That gets so many people confused. Oh, and I lied again. You're on-hand is merely the set of attacks that you choose to get your full strength with as a monk. Your off-hand is the set of attacks with which you deal 1/2 strength with. It's not dependent on which actual hand you use for a monk. TWF cares about which actual hand I use. and it seems I can deal full STR bonus with a quarterstaff using both ends of the quarter staff and then also get some attacks with only 1/2 STR bonus... how can I hit with 1 hand for full STR bonus and then in the same round hit with the same hand for only 1/2 STR damage. now I'm getting confused... you know what. I'm done. as I said before, if your DM allows it, that's on him/her. for me, I will not allow both to be used in my game during the same round and as long as a monk can combine FoB and TWF in the same round, as much as I hate it when people say this class or that class is broken, I will join the ranks of people screaming the fighter is broken.
Egres 12-04-07, 04:30 AM	There is no rule that asserts you can two weapon fight with only unarmed. There is no rule that asserts you can fight with a shield in your primary hand too.
risner 12-04-07, 04:55 AM	There is no rule that asserts you can fight with a shield in your primary hand too. How is that relevant? A shield is a weapon, it has a damage amount and the shield doesn't have text saying it is more of a technique than a weapon. An unarmed strike "weapon" own description indicates it can be delivery any way you wish and that it is a technique. In short, your post isn't on point and doesn't demonstrate anything useful or anything everyone didn't already know.
Tordak 12-04-07, 02:42 PM	Unarmed strikes is always considered a light weapon (with the exception of power attack where they seperate the 2, but then the exception is in power attack). You can fight with 2-weapons anytime using one of your unarmed strikes as your on-hand, the other one as your off-hand, with the usual penalties (including disadvantage of not having Improved unarmed strikes feat). You get your regular iterative attacks with your main hand and only one attack with your off-hand (unless you have the appropriate feats), and you add your full strengh bonus to your main hand attacks and 1/2 str bonus to your off-hand. I'm not so positive about TWF and flurry of blow. I always tought they could mix, and the FAQ support that point of view. But then people started discussing it on other thread and someone came with a point that made lots of sense : is it possible in a round to take advantage of not having off-hand attacks through FoB, and then take penalties to attack for using a off-hand weapon? It sounds like this might well be where the persons against can make a stand; you either have a off-hand or you don't. The rules don't seem to prevent it, but I'm not a 100% sure it allows it either. I still believe it allows you to use both TWF and FoB in conjonction, but anyone who thinks it doesn't is well justify. Anyway when I'm in doubt I usually follow the advice of the FAQ, but that's just me, it seems that this isn't a practice lots people on the forum share.
Tectorman 12-04-07, 02:52 PM	Guh! Stop taking this out of context. There is no such thing as an offhand unarmed attack for a Monk. Next sentence: he may thus apply his full Strength bonus on his damage rolls. The "no such things as offhand unarmed attacks" thing is just talking about how much damage his offhand attacks get. As for using both TWF and FoB, the FAQ says you may TWF and FoB. It's a more official stand on the subject than anything you'll find on these boards. Stop complicating the issues.:banghead:
jaelis 12-04-07, 02:55 PM	Unarmed strikes is always considered a light weapon (with the exception of power attack where they seperate the 2, but then the exception is in power attack). You can fight with 2-weapons anytime using one of your unarmed strikes as your on-hand, the other one as your off-hand, with the usual penalties (including disadvantage of not having Improved unarmed strikes feat). Just to be clear, you have already here made the assumption that is in question. Certainly if you have two unarmed strikes then you can TWF with them. But the rules don't say whether you have more than one unarmed strike "weapon".
Tordak 12-04-07, 04:16 PM	I see your point, but then it doesn't make sense: you wield a weapon in your right hand (let say), so you get to hit with it and then punch with your left hand, but if your right hand is empty, you can punch with it but then you cannot hit with your left hand? Just as you can weild to light weapon in both hands, you can have both your hands as light weapon. You can even use any other part of your body (knee, head butt, elbow), and get iterative attacks with higher BAB. You get one unarmed strike if you choose to make a regular attack (take the attack action; some feat might enable you to make more than one attack as a standard action), you get many unarmed strikes if you choose the full attack action. It's not coincidence that unarmed strikes are described in the weapon section, on the weapon table, and always considered light weapon; asside from the fact that they provoke attack of opportunity, they are mostly considered like manufactured (light) weapons. Every section describing unarmed strikes state they are treated as light weapon (some even add for 2-weap penalties and so on), and when they are not to be considered manufactured weapon it is clearly (more or less sometime, agreed) noted in the text (like provoking and making attacks of opportunity, enhancements and spells affecting you, etc). Guh! Stop taking this out of context. There is no such thing as an offhand unarmed attack for a Monk. Next sentence: he may thus apply his full Strength bonus on his damage rolls. The "no such things as offhand unarmed attacks" thing is just talking about how much damage his offhand attacks get. As for using both TWF and FoB, the FAQ says you may TWF and FoB. It's a more official stand on the subject than anything you'll find on these boards. Stop complicating the issues. I think you're right, but I'll add this quote from Skip Williams, which might confuse you (it confuses me): A monk using one or two special monk weapons simply substitutes one attack from each weapon (or from one or both ends of a quarterstaff) as part of a full attack (including a flurry of blows). The monk need not take any penalties for off-hand or two-weapon attacks. The monk, however, does not get an extra attack from a second weapon. If the monk is using a flurry of blows, she adds her full Strength bonus to damage from any successful attack, even if she uses what normally would be her off hand, or uses one end of a quarterstaff as a two-handed weapon. If a monk is not using her flurry of blows ability, she can claim an extra attack from a second weapon. If she does, she takes all the penalties for attacking with two weapons and for attacking with off-hand weapons. A monk using an unarmed strike as an off-hand attack does not suffer any off-hand penalties; however, under the regular rules for two-weapon fighting you get only one extra attack for an off-hand weapon. That's kind of why I'm not a 100% positive, it appears to be in disagreement with the faq .
jaelis 12-04-07, 04:23 PM	I see your point, but then it doesn't make sense... If the weapon were a fist, then you would be undoubtedly right. But the weapon is an unarmed strike, which could be taken as the cumulative effect of all your fists, knees, elbows, etc. An analogy to help understand this perspective is a sword: you could strike with the point or either of two edges. But that doesn't mean you have three weapons. In a similar way, you could think of your two fists as two parts of one weapon, rather than two weapons. Or you can think of them as two weapons. Either position is tenable and even reasonable.
Mojo_Rat 12-04-07, 04:46 PM	I think A distinction needs to be offered here with regards to monks. using one of the above examples of the monk with the quarterstaff and +6 base attack. so the attack is +5 /+5 /+0 Quarterstaff fist quarterstaff off end. Anyhow the clarification i wanted to point out is that that example is not someone using TWF or making an A secondary attack with the off-hand. It is an example of someone making 3 primary hand attacks using monk flurry of blows. Really the only issue as far as making 2 unarmed attacks using TWF goes comes down to one issue. Is the body a single weapon (ie one body, in the same way that a long-sword is not a separate weaponf rom its hilt) or is it many weapons (knees fists head etc) It is my opinion that RAw the body is a single weapon.
Johnny_Angel 12-04-07, 07:07 PM	In my games I allow it. What I always found odd is that people will argue until they're blue in the face about why Monk's are "underpowered," but then the first time a rule favors the Monk they'll argue that it "overpowers" the monk. [That wasn't directed at anyone in particular; it's just something I've seen happen in similar arguments.] Personally I don't see why you wouldn't be able to do it. Rangers using the ranged combat style can TWF to milk extra attacks out of their ranged weapons if they duel-wield repeatng crossbows, so I see no reason why the same thing wouldn't work with unarmed strikes and flurry. Other people may rule it differently, but in my games I allow Flurry and TWF to stack. The only downside is that it takes forever to roll all of your attacks because you have so many.
Tordak 12-04-07, 07:26 PM	An analogy to help understand this perspective is a sword: you could strike with the point or either of two edges. But that doesn't mean you have three weapons. In a similar way, you could think of your two fists as two parts of one weapon, rather than two weapons. This is a bad analogy, because you can strike with your fist (the end of your balled fist) or slap forehand or backhand (much like a tennis player); this is more akin to your example. The body would be more like a double-end weapon (like a double sword) : you can hit with either blade, but you can also hit with both, provide you follow the proper rules. Also, having a weapon in each hand, could you not choose to hit with both your fists (the one around the guard of the sword) instead of the blade, using 'unarmed strike' in an attempt, let say, to deal nonlethal damage? (Ok I suppose you would be considered armed in that case.) But for all this, Jaelis (and Rinser) you're still right, and your view cannot be discarded. I see your point now and I was wrong to jump quickly to conclusion. You cannot tell from the rule what to make of it, and the monk is a bad example to build upon because he has very particular unarmed strikes.
Johnny_Angel 12-04-07, 07:42 PM	I think A distinction needs to be offered here with regards to monks. using one of the above examples of the monk with the quarterstaff and +6 base attack. so the attack is +5 /+5 /+0 Quarterstaff fist quarterstaff off end. Anyhow the clarification i wanted to point out is that that example is not someone using TWF or making an A secondary attack with the off-hand. It is an example of someone making 3 primary hand attacks using monk flurry of blows. Really the only issue as far as making 2 unarmed attacks using TWF goes comes down to one issue. Is the body a single weapon (ie one body, in the same way that a long-sword is not a separate weaponf rom its hilt) or is it many weapons (knees fists head etc) It is my opinion that RAw the body is a single weapon. Which is one of the main reasons that Unarmed Strikes are treated as manufactured weapons for the purposes of following Base Attack Bonus instead of being treated as a natural weapon and following the natural attack progression. Otherwise the monk would (in theory) get either only ever get 1 attack per round or the monk would get unlimited attacks per round depending on how you read the rule. A monk can TWF and Flurry as long as they're willing to accept all of the penalties for doing so. A few posters have said that TWF and Flurry shouldn't stack because they are different versions of the same ability. That's a valid argument to hold, but if you view it that way then a character shouldn't be able to get both Sneak Attack and Sudden Strike because they're essentially the same ability. In my opinion, I feel that a monk can flurry and use the TWF feat tree. The only thing (IMO) that requires the DM to make a decision about is whether or not a monk takes penalties for fighting with an off-hand since they're treated as not having an off-hand. What I would say is that they don't take an off-hand penalty as long as they're using monk weapons or unarmed strikes. It does give the monk a bit of a power boost, but I hardly find it to be game breaking.
Snyprejp 12-09-07, 08:29 PM	I've read everyone's arguments and there really seems to be no clear cut way to say yes or no to either side definitively, but the following logic seems to pull off the same net effect as unarmed twf for monks with full support from the books. You can use a weapon in your primary hand and an unarmed strike in your off hand. (Character's can always choose to do this.) Monks can flurry of blows when wielding a special monk weapon or unarmed strikes only. Monks can interchange unarmed strikes and special monk attacks during a flurry as desired. So TWF with a kama and unarmed strike. Flurry the kama (or both if the DM allows) and interchange all kama attacks with unarmed strikes and there you go TWF with 2 unarmed strikes. Problem solved. Snyprejp
risner 12-09-07, 10:21 PM	So TWF with a kama and unarmed strike. Flurry the kama (or both if the DM allows) and interchange all kama attacks with unarmed strikes and there you go TWF with 2 unarmed strikes. Problem solved. So a 1st level Monk would: Kama, Unarmed, Unarmed That is two weapons, so there is only the debate of "can you TWF and Flurry" left.
Snyprejp 12-09-07, 10:37 PM	Actually a first level monk could attack with Unarmed 3 times with TWF. The PHB says nothing about having to make at least one attack with a special monk weapon while flurrying, just that they are interchangeable. So swap both kama attacks with unarmed and then the off hand unarmed. Basically just hold a kama to swap attacks out and never use it. Snyprejp
Rulebook 12-09-07, 10:41 PM	Kensai sets precedent saying that multiple limbs count as different weapons for unarmed strikes. second... on the subject of twf and flurry: Flurry is a full attack that grants an extra attack. TWF grants an extra attack during a full attack. twf is not its own action, its part of another action. so theres no reason why you couldnt do both.
CrimsonDeath 12-09-07, 10:44 PM	As for using both TWF and FoB, the FAQ says you may TWF and FoB. It's a more official stand on the subject than anything you'll find on these boards. Stop complicating the issues.:banghead: IIRC, the FAQ specifically says that you can TWF and Flurry at the same time, but you can't use your off-hand weapon as part of the flurry. So if you're holding a kama and a sai, you could, for example, attack with the kama and unarmed strike with all your Flurry attacks, and then make all your off-hand attacks with the sai. However, if you mix the sai into your Flurry, you can't use it for any off-hand attacks that round.
risner 12-10-07, 02:47 AM	Actually a first level monk could attack with Unarmed 3 times with TWF. The PHB says nothing about having to make at least one attack with a special monk weapon while flurrying, just that they are interchangeable. So swap both kama attacks with unarmed and then the off hand unarmed. Basically just hold a kama to swap attacks out and never use it. Snyprejp You are confused, you don't swap anything. You can not use that language to "swap" a Kama for Unarmed. So, you can not use that language to swap the Kama and gain 3 unarmed by claiming you are using a Kama and Unarmed Strikes (unless of course you are by using a Scorpion Kama.) Kensai sets precedent saying that multiple limbs count as different weapons for unarmed strikes. second... on the subject of twf and flurry: Flurry is a full attack that grants an extra attack. TWF grants an extra attack during a full attack. twf is not its own action, its part of another action. so theres no reason why you couldnt do both. Kensai doesn't as much set precedence as it places more restrictions. Your logic behind the TWF combined with Flurry is good (I agree with it), but it is not proven in the RAW. It isn't that clear in the books.
Snyprejp 12-10-07, 03:43 AM	Pg. 40 PHB "When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons. She may attack with unarmed strikes and special monk weapons interchangeably as desired." The RAW may seem vague, but "interchangeably as desired" definitely means I can swap them as I see fit, IMO. I'm taking it at face value. I don't see how my interpretation is wrong. Snyprejp
Rulebook 12-10-07, 08:27 AM	that just means that during the flurry part of the action you can only use unarmed strikes or special monk weapons. the twf attack could be anything. though ill strongly lean on the above restrictions as well (since the flurry is a full attack action)
risner 12-10-07, 02:03 PM	The RAW may seem vague, but "interchangeably as desired" definitely means I can swap them as I see fit, IMO. I'm taking it at face value. I don't see how my interpretation is wrong. Because you are applying this benefit when not using a Flurry, like when using Two Weapon Fighting. Flurry is like TWF except that it can be with any weapon or all with one weapon. Any way you look at it, that text absolutely doesn't read what you think it does.
dman11235 12-10-07, 06:21 PM	What it means is that you can attack with kama/unarmed/sai for your flurry. NOT that you can take kama/unarmed/sai and replace them with unarmed strikes (why do you have the kama and sai in the first place?). Normally you cannot use your iterative attacks to do this.
DastardlyDan 12-12-07, 12:58 PM	No, no, no, your on hand is not your right hand. It shouldn't be called on or off-hand, it should be called something else. That gets so many people confused. Oh, and I lied again. You're on-hand is merely the set of attacks that you choose to get your full strength with as a monk. Your off-hand is the set of attacks with which you deal 1/2 strength with. It's not dependant on which actual hand you use for a monk. I just wanted to point out that the rules in the PHB state that a monk using unarmed strikes is never considered to be hitting with their "off hand." They always apply their full strength bonus when dealing unarmed strikes. Note that this is only when they use unarmed strikes. If I have a kama in each hand, then I get the 1/2 str bonus from my off hand. If I have a kama in one hand and I strike with both kama and an unarmed strike, then neither gets a 1/2 str bonus (I'm assuming the weapon would go in the primary hand in this case.) I've always seen it as you can use two weapon fighting tree with unarmed strikes, but not that it stacks with Flurry. You can do one or the other, not both. As a monk, why would you want to spend the feats for the two weapon fighting tree anyways? You get more attacks at better bonuses with Flurry than you would with just the Two-Weapon fighting tree.
Mojo_Rat 12-12-07, 01:18 PM	A distinction needs to be made here that people seem to be confusing. A secondary attack (as the attack made with the second weapon while using TWF) is not the same thing as an Offhand attack. Monks can flurry of blows and make attacks with their offhand. They do not have to a) use two weapon fighting or b) make a secondary attack to do this. All the monk example is saying is that monks can make attacks with any part of any weapon they are holding in their hands or their un-armed attacks while flurrying. This has no connection to TWF at all Example a Monk with a +6 base attack holds a Sai in one hand and a Kama in the other (which it is doesn't matter) he has an attack of +5 +5 +0. So this can be Kama Sai Unarmed. This is no TWF involved at all. I realize the basics of this mechanic have mostly been laid out But there seems to be alot of confusing because people keep refering to a monk attacking with his off hand and implying it means the monk is TWF. Now before i go on I would like to state I dont think monks should be able to TWF bd Flurry at the same Time it strikes me as trying to apply something that often mechanically (and definately descriptively) does the same thing and then 'doubling it up.' However the FAQ (which can be contradictory) seems to suggest you can do it. However the FAQ seems to imply you have to have one of the attacks as a normal monk weapon (such as a kama sai etc). This seems to support the idea that the 'body' is a single weapon.
risner 12-12-07, 03:51 PM	I just wanted to point out that the rules in the PHB state that a monk using unarmed strikes is never considered to be hitting with their "off hand." They always apply their full strength bonus when dealing unarmed strikes. Always when doing a Flurry of Blows. If they strike with Unarmed Strike as an off-hand with Two Weapon Fighting, they would deal 1/2 STR bonus.
Egres 05-03-08, 06:19 AM	Q: Can you use the Two Weapon Fighting rules to make an extra unarmed attack if your first attack was also an unarmed attack? A: In the Sage’s opinion, yes. Unarmed attacks are described as using any part of your body to attack in several places, so using two parts of your body to attack, like both hands, seems permissible. Looks like I was right, risner.:)
EjoThims 05-03-08, 10:05 AM	If they strike with Unarmed Strike as an off-hand with Two Weapon Fighting, they would deal 1/2 STR bonus. This is, however, correct as well. When choosing to use unarmed attacks as an off-hand weapon, even Monks still get only .5 Str on those attacks.
risner 05-03-08, 10:24 AM	Lots of people have been argueing about whether or not you can use two weapon fighting with unarmed strikes, and so I ask can you use two weapon fighting with unarmed strikes, specifically while making a Flurry of Blows? Newest Sage advises you can use TWF with just Unarmed Strikes for primary and secondary weapons. This doesn't answer whether or not you can TWF with Flurry, but the FAQ advises you that combining the two you add the penalties and get -4 to all attacks. The Sage answer should indicate you can still Flurry and TWF all with Unarmed so long as you use different parts of your body to do the Flurry (like hands) and the TWF (like a foot) to get out of the "can't use same weapon with Flurry and TWF" language. Looks like I was right, risner.:) Yes, so it does. Grats.
Tsuul 05-03-08, 02:45 PM	If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. FIN I still have to read this latest sage
jaelis 05-03-08, 02:48 PM	The question was always whether your unarmed strike could count as two different weapons. The Sage says it can, so we have an answer.
EjoThims 05-03-08, 03:40 PM	The question was always whether your unarmed strike could count as two different weapons. The Sage says it can, so we have an answer. Same answer many of us have been giving for a while, though to be honest, it doesn't really do anything to address the underlying issues of why the problem was coming up in the first place. I really hope that in 4E TWF is either done more concretely (despite the unneeded limits that would cause) or more intuitive for multiple attack progressions instead of simply two/multi weapon fighting. The natural attacks versus BAB/TWF rules was another overly confusing result of the mess. :(
sundance8503 05-08-08, 06:02 PM	You know...here is how I and my DM see things... A monk who is 9th level (to make it easy and forget about the -1) and who also has two claws and a bite (a half dragon let's say) AND has the TWF fighting and ITWF and Multiattack would look like this: BAB is a +6/+1 Flurry (as a Flurry can be ANY part of a monk's body not just his fists) +6/+6/+1 He would use his unarmed or claw damage for his TWF instead of wielding a manufactored weapon (TWP encounters a -2 penalty to hit) 'On hand' +4/-1 'Off Hand' +4/-1 And also have a bite +4 So all together he would have 8 attacks D
EjoThims 05-08-08, 07:02 PM	A monk who is 9th level (to make it easy and forget about the -1) and who also has two claws and a bite (a half dragon let's say) AND has the TWF fighting and ITWF and Multiattack would look like this: Natural Attacks aren't special monk weapons, but, assuming you have Shou Disciple or some such, using all three at level 9 would look like this. 'Main-hand' unarmed attacks w/ flurry: +4, +4, -1 (-2 from TWF penalties) 'Off-hand' unarmed attacks: +4, -1 Bite: +2 (you still take a -2 penalty to all your secondary natural attacks, which bite becomes when making iterative attacks, until you get Improved Multiattack) Claws: +2, +2 Your total of 8 attacks was right, but your bonuses (and your ability to use flurry without a special feat or class ability) were off.