Uncanny Dodge stacking in a multiclass build. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Uncanny Dodge stacking in a multiclass build. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
AffableDoomwalker
03-18-07, 04:04 AM Currently my build has 4 levels of Rogue and 4 level of Fighter.

I have a high enough INT that I can (cc) Hide and Move Silently up to their respective requirements - so I'm going for a 2-level dip in Shadow Dancer, the 2nd level gives me Evasion and Uncanny Dodge, and because I already possess those abilities (thanks to my Rogue levels) they become Improved Evasion and Improved Uncanny Dodge.

Fair/Simple enough.

My issue/query lies four levels down the line, after Shadow Dancer I'll be returning to Rogue for at least another 4 levels; once a Rogue hits level 8 he receives Improved Uncanny Dodge... does this add to my Uncanny Dodge's situational exception - "The exception to this defense is that a rogue at least four levels higher than the Shadow Dancer can flank her (and thus sneak attack her)." - increasing the required level for the opposing rogue in question (i.e. 5 levels, as opposed to 4)? Or is it just disregarded?

The only reason I'm asking is because the closing wordage concerning Improved Uncanny Dodge... "If a character gains uncanny dodge (see above) from a second class (such as barbarian or rogue), the character automatically gains improved uncanny dodge, and the levels from those classes stack to determine the minimum rogue level required to flank the character." ... doesn't specifically say whether or not Improved Uncanny Dodge stacks with itself.

Anyone have any insight into this?
Lotus Crane
03-18-07, 04:14 AM If Uncanny Dodge stacks with Uncanny Dodge, then Uncanny Dodge stacks with Uncanny Dodge stacks with Uncanny Dodge stacks with Uncanny Dodge. So yes, a rogue/barbarian/Shadow Dancer would apply his combined class levels to determine whether or not he can avoid being sneak attacked.

Incidentally though, while gaining Uncanny Dodge a second time grants you Improved Uncanny Dodge, RAW, gaining Evasion a second time does not grant you Improved Evasion (unless the entry specifically says such, as as in the case of the Master Thrower PrC).
AffableDoomwalker
03-18-07, 04:41 AM RIghto, thanks for the info.
StevenO
03-18-07, 08:33 PM A character with Uncanny Dodge that gains it again gets Improved Uncanny Dodge. With IUD I add all levels of classes that have UD on their ability list to determine what level is needed to flank. That is that as long as the class would grant UD I add its levels in even if I haven't reached that point yet. As a counter I add all class levels from classes the grant Sneak attack to determine the effective "rogue" level even if the SA level isn't as high.

As noted it appears that Evasion + Evasion does not equal Improved Evasion unless specifically mentioned. I believe and would allow Evasion from any PrC to stack to Improved Evasion however; most of the newer PrCs have that provision and I'd guess some of the others think it does automatically.
Dheran
03-19-07, 12:59 PM As a counter I add all class levels from classes the grant Sneak attack to determine the effective "rogue" level even if the SA level isn't as high. I think you're unfairly favoring other classes over the Rogue here, StevenO. The benefit is plainly stated as only applying to Rogue levels:Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex)

At 5th level, an assassin can no longer be flanked, since he can react to opponents on opposite sides of him as easily as he can react to a single attacker. This defense denies rogues the ability to use flank attacks to sneak attack the assassin. The exception to this defense is that a rogue at least four levels higher than the assassin can flank him (and thus sneak attack him). Yes, the PC gets improved sneak attack from Assassin levels. But they shouldn't get an improved ability to bypass an opponent's Improved Uncanny Dodge. That ability is rightly determined only by pure Rogue levels. Sneak attack is the Rogue's specialty, and flanking is their most reliable way of doing so. Assassins have other schticks (death attack, spells) so they're not so single-minded.
StevenO
03-19-07, 07:56 PM By counting all levels of sneak attack granting classes it may give an advantage to classes with a slow SA progression but I do NOT think that only levels in Rogue should be required to overcome Improved UD. To many other classes have come out after since then and I really believe that a Rogue5/Assassin5 should be just as dangerous flanking as a straight Rogue 10.

You should also note that I add all levels of classes that would grant UD even if the character hasn't reached that level yet.
Dead_Weasel
03-19-07, 11:46 PM I have to agree with SteveO with regards to non-rogue SA; any class that grants SA ought to stack its levels with rogue for getting around IUD. Unfortunately, logic is often a house rule; RAW you don't do that.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
AffableDoomwalker 03-18-07, 04:04 AM	Currently my build has 4 levels of Rogue and 4 level of Fighter. I have a high enough INT that I can (cc) Hide and Move Silently up to their respective requirements - so I'm going for a 2-level dip in Shadow Dancer, the 2nd level gives me Evasion and Uncanny Dodge, and because I already possess those abilities (thanks to my Rogue levels) they become Improved Evasion and Improved Uncanny Dodge. Fair/Simple enough. My issue/query lies four levels down the line, after Shadow Dancer I'll be returning to Rogue for at least another 4 levels; once a Rogue hits level 8 he receives Improved Uncanny Dodge... does this add to my Uncanny Dodge's situational exception - "The exception to this defense is that a rogue at least four levels higher than the Shadow Dancer can flank her (and thus sneak attack her)." - increasing the required level for the opposing rogue in question (i.e. 5 levels, as opposed to 4)? Or is it just disregarded? The only reason I'm asking is because the closing wordage concerning Improved Uncanny Dodge... "If a character gains uncanny dodge (see above) from a second class (such as barbarian or rogue), the character automatically gains improved uncanny dodge, and the levels from those classes stack to determine the minimum rogue level required to flank the character." ... doesn't specifically say whether or not Improved Uncanny Dodge stacks with itself. Anyone have any insight into this?
Lotus Crane 03-18-07, 04:14 AM	If Uncanny Dodge stacks with Uncanny Dodge, then Uncanny Dodge stacks with Uncanny Dodge stacks with Uncanny Dodge stacks with Uncanny Dodge. So yes, a rogue/barbarian/Shadow Dancer would apply his combined class levels to determine whether or not he can avoid being sneak attacked. Incidentally though, while gaining Uncanny Dodge a second time grants you Improved Uncanny Dodge, RAW, gaining Evasion a second time does not grant you Improved Evasion (unless the entry specifically says such, as as in the case of the Master Thrower PrC).
AffableDoomwalker 03-18-07, 04:41 AM	RIghto, thanks for the info.
StevenO 03-18-07, 08:33 PM	A character with Uncanny Dodge that gains it again gets Improved Uncanny Dodge. With IUD I add all levels of classes that have UD on their ability list to determine what level is needed to flank. That is that as long as the class would grant UD I add its levels in even if I haven't reached that point yet. As a counter I add all class levels from classes the grant Sneak attack to determine the effective "rogue" level even if the SA level isn't as high. As noted it appears that Evasion + Evasion does not equal Improved Evasion unless specifically mentioned. I believe and would allow Evasion from any PrC to stack to Improved Evasion however; most of the newer PrCs have that provision and I'd guess some of the others think it does automatically.
Dheran 03-19-07, 12:59 PM	As a counter I add all class levels from classes the grant Sneak attack to determine the effective "rogue" level even if the SA level isn't as high. I think you're unfairly favoring other classes over the Rogue here, StevenO. The benefit is plainly stated as only applying to Rogue levels:Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex) At 5th level, an assassin can no longer be flanked, since he can react to opponents on opposite sides of him as easily as he can react to a single attacker. This defense denies rogues the ability to use flank attacks to sneak attack the assassin. The exception to this defense is that a rogue at least four levels higher than the assassin can flank him (and thus sneak attack him). Yes, the PC gets improved sneak attack from Assassin levels. But they shouldn't get an improved ability to bypass an opponent's Improved Uncanny Dodge. That ability is rightly determined only by pure Rogue levels. Sneak attack is the Rogue's specialty, and flanking is their most reliable way of doing so. Assassins have other schticks (death attack, spells) so they're not so single-minded.
StevenO 03-19-07, 07:56 PM	By counting all levels of sneak attack granting classes it may give an advantage to classes with a slow SA progression but I do NOT think that only levels in Rogue should be required to overcome Improved UD. To many other classes have come out after since then and I really believe that a Rogue5/Assassin5 should be just as dangerous flanking as a straight Rogue 10. You should also note that I add all levels of classes that would grant UD even if the character hasn't reached that level yet.
Dead_Weasel 03-19-07, 11:46 PM	I have to agree with SteveO with regards to non-rogue SA; any class that grants SA ought to stack its levels with rogue for getting around IUD. Unfortunately, logic is often a house rule; RAW you don't do that.