Underfoot Combat + Confound the Big folk [Archive] - Wizards Community

Underfoot Combat + Confound the Big folk [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Crash169
09-20-07, 09:19 PM The three maneuvers you acquire from confound the big folk seem amazing, and I'm planning on making a character that specialized in underfoot combat and giant killing.

I had a question though.. Most of the maneuvers you gain from that feat require you to enter their square one round, and then you gain the benefit the next round. Couldn't the large creature who's space you just stepped into take a 5ft step and spoil all your plans?

If he moved, you would have to move back into his square and hope he stays there until your next turn.

Is this how it works? Or did I just read it wrong? Do you move with him or something?
ShinAkuma2
09-21-07, 02:40 AM Go on and read the feat again.

Every maneuver demands that you start by "mov[ing] into a square occupied by a foe at least two size categories larger than you".

It doesn't ask you to stay within the space of the creature, or that the creature not move before your next turn; you simply have to enter one of his squares. Once you enter the square, the maneuver is "active", and you will gain the listed benefits on the next round.

In fact, you could reactivate the feat every round with a 5ft step. Start by entering his space, and even if he doesn't move, you do your round's worth of actions, then 5ft step into another of his squares (assuming he's Large or larger). You have, once again, entered one of his squares, and thus the feat will work again.

And I agree, Underfoot Combat is awesome. :)
Crash169
09-21-07, 02:57 PM I know it doesn't ask you to stay in the square, but I just assume that it is so. Considering the name of the feat, Underfoot Combat, I always thought the flavor was more based on fighting in their square.

The feat Giantbane in Complete Warrior allows you to climb on a creature two sizes greater than you. So if the DM, or whomever else disagrees with your play on the Feats doesn't let me gain the benefits because of not being in their square, I'll just use the Climb on top maneuver, and hopefully that will work it out.

Another problem I see is.. Confound the big folk and underfoot combat aren't fighter bonus feats. So would I have to wait for level 12 to get them both? Does anyone know a way around this?
ShinAkuma2
09-21-07, 05:55 PM I know it doesn't ask you to stay in the square, but I just assume that it is so. Considering the name of the feat, Underfoot Combat, I always thought the flavor was more based on fighting in their square.

Well, it is. By the fact that you've entered the square, you've already begun to throw the opponent off-balance. At this point, it's a roleplaying thing, because the mechanics are already in place.
locustechpriest
09-21-07, 07:21 PM By the fact that you've entered the square, you've already begun to throw the opponent off-balance.

I would agree with the "damage is done" stance. Sounds reasonable and ends in much less frustration (on the player's end).

I take it you are going straight fighter, Crash169? I would recommend against it. Do a dip into classes that give you bonus manuvers. I don't know much about manuvers, that I will admit, but straight fighter is rarely optimal. Other than that, I see no better way.
Crash169
09-22-07, 12:52 AM I would agree with the "damage is done" stance. Sounds reasonable and ends in much less frustration (on the player's end).

I take it you are going straight fighter, Crash169? I would recommend against it. Do a dip into classes that give you bonus manuvers. I don't know much about manuvers, that I will admit, but straight fighter is rarely optimal. Other than that, I see no better way.

I do not plan to go straight fighter, I was just wondering why the Underfoot Combat and Confound the big folk feats aren't bonus fighter feats. If they are not bonus fighter feats, I would have to wait until level twelve to get them both.

My build so far is something along the lines of..

Strongheart Halfling:
Rogue3/Barb1/swordsage3/fighter2 (not in that order)
Possible Feats: Two weapon fighting, telling blow, giantbane, underfoot combat, confound the big folk.
Weapon: Kukri's
Stance/Maneuvers: Assasins stance, plus maneuvers that make opponents flatfooted or flanked.

This is assuming that I could make the two feats fighter bonus feats. If not, replace the two fighter levels for ranger I guess. It's not completely optimized, just something I've been thinking about lately.
Crash169
09-22-07, 12:56 AM Well, it is. By the fact that you've entered the square, you've already begun to throw the opponent off-balance. At this point, it's a roleplaying thing, because the mechanics are already in place.

I can picture it now, considering everything in a round is happening in the same six seconds. So them moving out of your square is actually a bonus, since you get to walk back in their square and catch them flatfooted the following round.
bkdubs123
09-22-07, 04:22 AM Well if you were going straight fighter you could have all the feats you wanted and more by 9th level.

Dodge, Mobility, Something random, Elusive Target, Giantbane, Underfoot Combat, Confound the Big Folk.

All those at 9th level. Think of how annoying you would be. If you can think of something even more annoying to grab at 3rd level between mobility and Elusive Target it can't hurt.
Crash169
09-22-07, 02:38 PM Well if you were going straight fighter you could have all the feats you wanted and more by 9th level.

Dodge, Mobility, Something random, Elusive Target, Giantbane, Underfoot Combat, Confound the Big Folk.

All those at 9th level. Think of how annoying you would be. If you can think of something even more annoying to grab at 3rd level between mobility and Elusive Target it can't hurt.

With the build I posted, I do get all the feats I want. I get 7 feats by 9th level.
1st: 2
3rd: 1
6th: 1
Fighter1:1
Fighter2:2
9th:1

I don't think I need Elusive target, because I'll most probably be in their square while I'm fighting and they wont be flanking me often. The negate power attack would be nice, but once again.. My AC in their square is going to be getting a hefty bonus.

I'm going to have sneak attack 4d6, 7 feats, TWF kukris. With my barb level I'm going to give up extra speed and take the alternate class feature Lions pounce from Complete Champion.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Crash169 09-20-07, 09:19 PM	The three maneuvers you acquire from confound the big folk seem amazing, and I'm planning on making a character that specialized in underfoot combat and giant killing. I had a question though.. Most of the maneuvers you gain from that feat require you to enter their square one round, and then you gain the benefit the next round. Couldn't the large creature who's space you just stepped into take a 5ft step and spoil all your plans? If he moved, you would have to move back into his square and hope he stays there until your next turn. Is this how it works? Or did I just read it wrong? Do you move with him or something?
ShinAkuma2 09-21-07, 02:40 AM	Go on and read the feat again. Every maneuver demands that you start by "mov[ing] into a square occupied by a foe at least two size categories larger than you". It doesn't ask you to stay within the space of the creature, or that the creature not move before your next turn; you simply have to enter one of his squares. Once you enter the square, the maneuver is "active", and you will gain the listed benefits on the next round. In fact, you could reactivate the feat every round with a 5ft step. Start by entering his space, and even if he doesn't move, you do your round's worth of actions, then 5ft step into another of his squares (assuming he's Large or larger). You have, once again, entered one of his squares, and thus the feat will work again. And I agree, Underfoot Combat is awesome. :)
Crash169 09-21-07, 02:57 PM	I know it doesn't ask you to stay in the square, but I just assume that it is so. Considering the name of the feat, Underfoot Combat, I always thought the flavor was more based on fighting in their square. The feat Giantbane in Complete Warrior allows you to climb on a creature two sizes greater than you. So if the DM, or whomever else disagrees with your play on the Feats doesn't let me gain the benefits because of not being in their square, I'll just use the Climb on top maneuver, and hopefully that will work it out. Another problem I see is.. Confound the big folk and underfoot combat aren't fighter bonus feats. So would I have to wait for level 12 to get them both? Does anyone know a way around this?
ShinAkuma2 09-21-07, 05:55 PM	I know it doesn't ask you to stay in the square, but I just assume that it is so. Considering the name of the feat, Underfoot Combat, I always thought the flavor was more based on fighting in their square. Well, it is. By the fact that you've entered the square, you've already begun to throw the opponent off-balance. At this point, it's a roleplaying thing, because the mechanics are already in place.
locustechpriest 09-21-07, 07:21 PM	By the fact that you've entered the square, you've already begun to throw the opponent off-balance. I would agree with the "damage is done" stance. Sounds reasonable and ends in much less frustration (on the player's end). I take it you are going straight fighter, Crash169? I would recommend against it. Do a dip into classes that give you bonus manuvers. I don't know much about manuvers, that I will admit, but straight fighter is rarely optimal. Other than that, I see no better way.
Crash169 09-22-07, 12:52 AM	I would agree with the "damage is done" stance. Sounds reasonable and ends in much less frustration (on the player's end). I take it you are going straight fighter, Crash169? I would recommend against it. Do a dip into classes that give you bonus manuvers. I don't know much about manuvers, that I will admit, but straight fighter is rarely optimal. Other than that, I see no better way. I do not plan to go straight fighter, I was just wondering why the Underfoot Combat and Confound the big folk feats aren't bonus fighter feats. If they are not bonus fighter feats, I would have to wait until level twelve to get them both. My build so far is something along the lines of.. Strongheart Halfling: Rogue3/Barb1/swordsage3/fighter2 (not in that order) Possible Feats: Two weapon fighting, telling blow, giantbane, underfoot combat, confound the big folk. Weapon: Kukri's Stance/Maneuvers: Assasins stance, plus maneuvers that make opponents flatfooted or flanked. This is assuming that I could make the two feats fighter bonus feats. If not, replace the two fighter levels for ranger I guess. It's not completely optimized, just something I've been thinking about lately.
Crash169 09-22-07, 12:56 AM	Well, it is. By the fact that you've entered the square, you've already begun to throw the opponent off-balance. At this point, it's a roleplaying thing, because the mechanics are already in place. I can picture it now, considering everything in a round is happening in the same six seconds. So them moving out of your square is actually a bonus, since you get to walk back in their square and catch them flatfooted the following round.
bkdubs123 09-22-07, 04:22 AM	Well if you were going straight fighter you could have all the feats you wanted and more by 9th level. Dodge, Mobility, Something random, Elusive Target, Giantbane, Underfoot Combat, Confound the Big Folk. All those at 9th level. Think of how annoying you would be. If you can think of something even more annoying to grab at 3rd level between mobility and Elusive Target it can't hurt.
Crash169 09-22-07, 02:38 PM	Well if you were going straight fighter you could have all the feats you wanted and more by 9th level. Dodge, Mobility, Something random, Elusive Target, Giantbane, Underfoot Combat, Confound the Big Folk. All those at 9th level. Think of how annoying you would be. If you can think of something even more annoying to grab at 3rd level between mobility and Elusive Target it can't hurt. With the build I posted, I do get all the feats I want. I get 7 feats by 9th level. 1st: 2 3rd: 1 6th: 1 Fighter1:1 Fighter2:2 9th:1 I don't think I need Elusive target, because I'll most probably be in their square while I'm fighting and they wont be flanking me often. The negate power attack would be nice, but once again.. My AC in their square is going to be getting a hefty bonus. I'm going to have sneak attack 4d6, 7 feats, TWF kukris. With my barb level I'm going to give up extra speed and take the alternate class feature Lions pounce from Complete Champion.