Post/Author/DateTime	Post
diegosephroth 03-25-07, 08:49 PM	Im dming a campaing and my players are around ECL 30. Disconsidering magic stuff since everyone can have them. I'm comparing RAW damage from base/more common weapons. Im NOT comparing other class abilities. Fighter dealing around 4d8 damage with large weapon. That, when not enlarged. Due to BAB, he attacks more, hits more and deal more damage. Average 18. Barbarian can hold up to whatever size weapons. Average godlike. Rogue deal low damage. But he is not DD anyways(though he can unleash havok with a well done SA) Sorcerer overpowered, like always. But since it's a spell, I'll not compare it. Monk deal 1d20 damage. Average 10.5. more attacks, but less chance to hit. When comparing damage, both classes, be it from weapons, be it from class abilities, will tend to do god-like amounts of damage. Monks are kinda stable. So will really stop their damage progression? It would be so cool if a 40th level monk could deal like 2d20 damage(average 21). and I particularly don't believe it would be that unballanced. any ideas/sugestions/critics?
TheMagister 03-25-07, 09:01 PM	I'm no mathematician. But there's a great deal more to a monk's unarmed damage than just 1d20 (which is rather weak). I'm more partial to the 2d10 value that's used in 3.5, myself. Not only that, but it scales better when paired with Improved Natural Attack (moves it to 4d8) and Superior Unarmed Strike (I'm not sure what this one does to it). And as far as "Fighters hit more": they're supposed to (full BAB vs. 3/4 BAB and all). Personally, I really like the decisive strike variant in the PHBII. Coupled with Ability Focus and Improved Stunning Fist (Epic), you can mete out some truly horrendous Fortitude Saves vs. Stun while dealing (4d8+Str)*2 dmg. That's all I've got for this one. ;) Edit: I lied. I LOVE the Expanded Psionics Handbook for a monk. You just can't beat the ability to expend your focus to make your melee attack a touch attack (speaking of the Unavoidable Strike feat). By level 30, My monk would have ten or more levels of Psychic Warrior. :fight!:
Ananvil 03-25-07, 09:28 PM	The vast majority of damage, especially at ECL 30, is not from raw weapon damage. Feats, Items, and spells make up the majority. With the monk in mind, assuming that for some reason he's pure class: Improved Natural Attack Flying Kick Roundabout Strike Touch of Golden Ice Battle Jump Dodge Improved Trip Defensive Throw Power Charge Power Attack Magic Fang 5 Increases his damage to 4d8, free extra attack on every crit, all hits are "poisoned", Triple Damage on a charge, +4 to hit on charges, Free Trip Attack every time the target of dodge misses, trip attacks deal unarmed damage, and Magic Fang increases hit rate. This is all just off the top of my head and without any special gear. Throw in a few levels of pure BAB to increase your hit rate. P.S. Your rogue should be vastly outdamaging everyone else, with somewhere of about 8-10 SA a round.
NoldorForce 03-25-07, 10:56 PM	Actually, the monk may be one of the only melee classes that CAN still rely on base weapon damage at high levels. This is a result of the fact that the monk's unarmed strike is uniquely able to gain benefit from just about any size increase or effective size increase in existence, whether it applies to manufactured or natural weapons. See this thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=332596) for details. If you apply enough stuff, your fists (or your eyebrows, for all you care - you're a monk!) can have an average damage of at least three figures.
ClementWillowbreaker 03-25-07, 11:42 PM	I think one little problem is that monk damage stops scaling. Wtf. Everything else does- sneak attack, caster level, eldritch blast, ad nauseum. It also makes Superior Unarmed Strike/Monks Belt much less useful to a lvl17 monk than someone with a lvl2 dip. But that is a design nitpick. As said above, your base damage pales in comparison to the bonus damage and dice you acquire at latter levels.
diegosephroth 03-26-07, 10:14 PM	I think one little problem is that monk damage stops scaling. Wtf. Everything else does- sneak attack, caster level, eldritch blast, ad nauseum. It also makes Superior Unarmed Strike/Monks Belt much less useful to a lvl17 monk than someone with a lvl2 dip. But that is a design nitpick. As said above, your base damage pales in comparison to the bonus damage and dice you acquire at latter levels. Uhm.... I agreed with that, and it was the reason of my posting. I was like "wtf? why stop it if the average damage when continued scaling it at the same rate is so low??" but after seeing the answers I saw that IF it continued to grow, combined with size increses this could get so overpower... I looked and saw that unn damage can get as high as 24d8 damage per hit (though I hardly believe any monk that plays under a little decent DM would get this far). If we continued scalling it, it could get to.. who knows, 48d8 for a 40th level monk? Per hit? thats so outdamaging if you compare him with a god. so I dunno what to do.. since I'm dming a low magic campaign, I think it would be too hard for my PC to go beyond the 2 size increment damage. But thats already a 8d6 damage per hit. If augmented by his fellows, that could go to as far as 8d8 with enlarge or 16d6 with a little more effort. That would be as far as I'd let him go, probably(maybe 8d8 cap...still considering). I just don't like the ideas of gargantuan people walking around
starfire311 03-26-07, 11:05 PM	personally, I dont think it would be broken to continue the progression, or maybe spend an epic feat to get access to 10 levels of progression or something. something like Epic Unarmed Strike[Epic] Prerequisite: 21th level Monk Benefit: At every even monk level upto, and including level 30, increase your unarmed damage by 1 point. Special: You can take this feat multiple times each time increase the level cap by 10 levels.
enygmatic_me 03-28-07, 05:02 PM	There is one thing the monk has over nearly everyone else. They are never without a weapon. They may also benefit from magic items like anyone else. Also, their is nothing stopping the from taking Improved Natural Attack a bunch of times.
ClementWillowbreaker 03-28-07, 05:11 PM	Except that... 1) A strict reading of the rules prevents them from taking it in the first place. The FAQ and such have become looser and looser with a lot of game issues over time, including how much overlap there is between unarmed strikes and natural attacks. 2) Even if you could take INA, you can't take it for the same natural weapon twice. Check the errata- it was nice enough to let you know you could take it for multiple weapons. Without a Special comment to indicate otherwise, you can't take any feat twice.