Use Magic Device DC [Archive] - Wizards Community

Use Magic Device DC [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
son_of_frumm
05-08-07, 07:12 PM What would be the UMD check required for a neutral character to activate a holy avenger?
AtmaWeapon
05-08-07, 07:39 PM I only have the SRD to work off of, so bear with me.

It depends on how you interpret a "Class Feature". If you consider "Being a Paladin" a class feature of the Paladin class, then you would need to make a DC30 check to emulate being lawful good, followed by a DC21 check to emulate the class features of at least a level 1 paladin.

I personally wouldn't allow it, but I don't have the PHB wording to go off of to see how it differs from the SRD.
Vegepygmy
05-08-07, 08:49 PM I agree with AtmaWeapon: "being a paladin" is not a class feature and cannot be emulated using UMD.
Mystyc
05-09-07, 02:11 AM Whether this can be done is a matter of fairly contested debate. Ask your DM.
Lucas Blackstone
05-09-07, 03:13 AM It makes perfect sense to allow it. You fool magic devices with the skill and there's nothing in the description of a Holy Avenger that says that it can't be fooled.
Dheran
05-09-07, 04:41 AM The high limit on the answer is DC 40. That will let you emulate a specific individual (as established in an adventure in Dragon magazine). So if you've ever even heard of somebody with Paladin levels, DC 40 will do the trick. Alternatively, two separate checks at DC 30 and DC 21 might do the job, but you'll need to check with your DM because of the uncertainty regarding this application of Use Magic Device since the "simplification" from 3.0 (when it was very clear that you could do this) to 3.5 rules (when it no longer is clear).
Merestil Haye
05-09-07, 05:02 AM The high limit on the answer is DC 40. That will let you emulate a specific individual (as established in an adventure in Dragon magazine). This is true only if you accept that things published in Dragon (or, more likely Dungeon) establish rules. I do not consider that they do.

As far as I am concerned, you cannot emulate being a paladin or any other class. You can only get items to react as if you have one specific class feature, and you cannot actually use that feature.
Dheran
05-09-07, 07:03 AM This is true only if you accept that things published in Dragon (or, more likely Dungeon) establish rules. I do not consider that they do. Then you're in disagreement with WotC, which has blessed Dragon with the "100% Official D&D" label.
Merestil Haye
05-09-07, 07:29 AM Then you're in disagreement with WotC, which has blessed Dragon with the "100% Official D&D" label.All that means - all it means - is that they can use the parts of the D&D rules that are WotC intellectual property. It does not make their articles form part of the corpus of RAW.

This is not any form of precedent for using UMD to fake being a member of a class.
El_Machinae
05-09-07, 09:33 AM It's a sticky debate, and it's open to abuse.
You can get a pretty awesome Spell Resistance from such an effort.

(the other UMD argument is about activating staffs)
jaelis
05-09-07, 01:20 PM You can get a pretty awesome Spell Resistance from such an effort.
Dare I ask how?
tarkin
05-09-07, 03:43 PM He had misread the UMD rules and thought that you could "emulate" a paladin level.

That is false.

If you could do that, then the Holy Avenger would grant you 5 + the emulated level in SR.

In reality, if you are not a Paladin, then you get SR 5+ 0 (as your Paladin Level is 0), regardless of how high you score on your UMD roll.

There is NO "Emulate a level" in the PHB. The closes you get is "Emulate a Class feature". It uses the effective level to get that class feature as part of the DC to Emulate.

But it NEVER lets you emulate a level - you are emulating a class feature only. You have an 'effective level', but that is only for purposes of emulating that class feature, not for anything else.
Dheran
05-11-07, 07:56 AM All that means - all it means - is that they can use the parts of the D&D rules that are WotC intellectual property. It does not make their articles form part of the corpus of RAW. So this means that the Fanged Ring in Dragon # 308 (a Paizo publication) wasn't a legitimate D&D magic item, but the same Fanged Ring in Dragon Magic (a WotC book) is OK?

I don't buy your "0% Valid" interpretation of "100% Official".
Merestil Haye
05-11-07, 08:26 AM So this means that the Fanged Ring in Dragon # 308 (a Paizo publication) wasn't a legitimate D&D magic item, but the same Fanged Ring in Dragon Magic (a WotC book) is OK?

I don't buy your "0% Valid" interpretation of "100% Official".It's like anything else; an idea floated by some person to use in a D&D game.

So long as you continue to claim that just because Dragon or Dungeoun published an adventure that says you can impersonate a person with UMD that it becomes RAW, I will maintain that nothing in any magazine can ever set any form of precedent in public fora.

I allow things in Dragon magazine rarely. Since the release of 3.0 I think that I have used two ideas. (Oh, and I ran Shackled City, because it gave me an excuse to change some things about my game world). But that's it.

100% official? Fine. 100% viable? Nonsense.
Vegepygmy
05-12-07, 05:15 PM So this means that the Fanged Ring in Dragon # 308 (a Paizo publication) wasn't a legitimate D&D magic item, but the same Fanged Ring in Dragon Magic (a WotC book) is OK?Yeah, pretty much.

I would never rely on an item appearing in Dragon as authority for what is "RAW" (as we use that term around here), but I would give serious consideration to doing so if that same item appeared in a supplement like Dragon Magic.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
son_of_frumm 05-08-07, 07:12 PM	What would be the UMD check required for a neutral character to activate a holy avenger?
AtmaWeapon 05-08-07, 07:39 PM	I only have the SRD to work off of, so bear with me. It depends on how you interpret a "Class Feature". If you consider "Being a Paladin" a class feature of the Paladin class, then you would need to make a DC30 check to emulate being lawful good, followed by a DC21 check to emulate the class features of at least a level 1 paladin. I personally wouldn't allow it, but I don't have the PHB wording to go off of to see how it differs from the SRD.
Vegepygmy 05-08-07, 08:49 PM	I agree with AtmaWeapon: "being a paladin" is not a class feature and cannot be emulated using UMD.
Mystyc 05-09-07, 02:11 AM	Whether this can be done is a matter of fairly contested debate. Ask your DM.
Lucas Blackstone 05-09-07, 03:13 AM	It makes perfect sense to allow it. You fool magic devices with the skill and there's nothing in the description of a Holy Avenger that says that it can't be fooled.
Dheran 05-09-07, 04:41 AM	The high limit on the answer is DC 40. That will let you emulate a specific individual (as established in an adventure in Dragon magazine). So if you've ever even heard of somebody with Paladin levels, DC 40 will do the trick. Alternatively, two separate checks at DC 30 and DC 21 might do the job, but you'll need to check with your DM because of the uncertainty regarding this application of Use Magic Device since the "simplification" from 3.0 (when it was very clear that you could do this) to 3.5 rules (when it no longer is clear).
Merestil Haye 05-09-07, 05:02 AM	The high limit on the answer is DC 40. That will let you emulate a specific individual (as established in an adventure in Dragon magazine). This is true only if you accept that things published in Dragon (or, more likely Dungeon) establish rules. I do not consider that they do. As far as I am concerned, you cannot emulate being a paladin or any other class. You can only get items to react as if you have one specific class feature, and you cannot actually use that feature.
Dheran 05-09-07, 07:03 AM	This is true only if you accept that things published in Dragon (or, more likely Dungeon) establish rules. I do not consider that they do. Then you're in disagreement with WotC, which has blessed Dragon with the "100% Official D&D" label.
Merestil Haye 05-09-07, 07:29 AM	Then you're in disagreement with WotC, which has blessed Dragon with the "100% Official D&D" label.All that means - all it means - is that they can use the parts of the D&D rules that are WotC intellectual property. It does not make their articles form part of the corpus of RAW. This is not any form of precedent for using UMD to fake being a member of a class.
El_Machinae 05-09-07, 09:33 AM	It's a sticky debate, and it's open to abuse. You can get a pretty awesome Spell Resistance from such an effort. (the other UMD argument is about activating staffs)
jaelis 05-09-07, 01:20 PM	You can get a pretty awesome Spell Resistance from such an effort. Dare I ask how?
tarkin 05-09-07, 03:43 PM	He had misread the UMD rules and thought that you could "emulate" a paladin level. That is false. If you could do that, then the Holy Avenger would grant you 5 + the emulated level in SR. In reality, if you are not a Paladin, then you get SR 5+ 0 (as your Paladin Level is 0), regardless of how high you score on your UMD roll. There is NO "Emulate a level" in the PHB. The closes you get is "Emulate a Class feature". It uses the effective level to get that class feature as part of the DC to Emulate. But it NEVER lets you emulate a level - you are emulating a class feature only. You have an 'effective level', but that is only for purposes of emulating that class feature, not for anything else.
Dheran 05-11-07, 07:56 AM	All that means - all it means - is that they can use the parts of the D&D rules that are WotC intellectual property. It does not make their articles form part of the corpus of RAW. So this means that the Fanged Ring in Dragon # 308 (a Paizo publication) wasn't a legitimate D&D magic item, but the same Fanged Ring in Dragon Magic (a WotC book) is OK? I don't buy your "0% Valid" interpretation of "100% Official".
Merestil Haye 05-11-07, 08:26 AM	So this means that the Fanged Ring in Dragon # 308 (a Paizo publication) wasn't a legitimate D&D magic item, but the same Fanged Ring in Dragon Magic (a WotC book) is OK? I don't buy your "0% Valid" interpretation of "100% Official".It's like anything else; an idea floated by some person to use in a D&D game. So long as you continue to claim that just because Dragon or Dungeoun published an adventure that says you can impersonate a person with UMD that it becomes RAW, I will maintain that nothing in any magazine can ever set any form of precedent in public fora. I allow things in Dragon magazine rarely. Since the release of 3.0 I think that I have used two ideas. (Oh, and I ran Shackled City, because it gave me an excuse to change some things about my game world). But that's it. 100% official? Fine. 100% viable? Nonsense.
Vegepygmy 05-12-07, 05:15 PM	So this means that the Fanged Ring in Dragon # 308 (a Paizo publication) wasn't a legitimate D&D magic item, but the same Fanged Ring in Dragon Magic (a WotC book) is OK?Yeah, pretty much. I would never rely on an item appearing in Dragon as authority for what is "RAW" (as we use that term around here), but I would give serious consideration to doing so if that same item appeared in a supplement like Dragon Magic.