Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Druhallen 04-03-08, 09:07 PM	Does anyone knows if a rogue can use the UMD skill on a permanency scroll to make it works as if he was the mage that had cast it on himself. So in other words, he would be able to make permanent, the spells that only the mage can make permanent on himself. Anyone has any idea on that?? Also, why would someone pay 150,000gp for an amulet of mighty fist +5, if he could instead buy for 1,500gp a scroll of greater magic fang +5 CL20, and then use a permanency scroll on himself that cost about 10,000?? Is something wrong with this???
Eldritch_Lord 04-03-08, 09:27 PM	Does anyone knows if a rogue can use the UMD skill on a permanency scroll to make it works as if he was the mage that had cast it on himself. So in other words, he would be able to make permanent, the spells that only the mage can make permanent on himself. Anyone has any idea on that?? Yes. The user of a scroll is considered to be its caster for targeting and such, so he could do "self only" permanent spells. Also, why would someone pay 150,000gp for an amulet of mighty fist +5, if he could instead buy for 1,500gp a scroll of greater magic fang +5 CL20, and then use a permanency scroll on himself that cost about 10,000?? Is something wrong with this??? Dispel magic won't disenchant the amulet, just suppress it for 1d4 rounds. 150,000gp worth of the 2 scrolls will last you over 13 encounters, the expected number you have per level, so it's as if you have the permanent spell that will withstand at least 1 dispel per encounter, plus it's a bit more efficient (more than 13 encounters)...and the scrolls would only last you 1 level. Plus, you don't have to UMD the amulet--you'd need to make 2 DC 40 UMD checks for the scrolls, where any failure could mean you have to buy another scroll and you possibly take damage; you probably won't have a high enough UMD to make it every time by the time you could just buy the amulet.
elonin 04-04-08, 07:49 AM	Are you sure about the scroll disappearing unless the check is missed by more than 10. Also, it's possible to make that result by level 10. Consider that anyone who is building this way is going to max this skill "13+ have skill mastery (roll) 10+ circlit of persuasion +3, cha bonus +3, cha enhancing item (or eagles splendor) +2, magical aptitude +2, synergy bonuses (spell craft and decipher script)+4, and item of competence bonus UMD +5 =42 Of course the most expensive part (aside from the scrolls) is having the high charisma but for a party talker this would be justified. I'm not suggesting that this is cheap but neither is it particularly difficult.
jaelis 04-04-08, 12:04 PM	Also, why would someone pay 150,000gp for an amulet of mighty fist +5, if he could instead buy for 1,500gp a scroll of greater magic fang +5 CL20, and then use a permanency scroll on himself that cost about 10,000?? Besides the dispell problem, the amulet would also enhance all your natural attacks, while the spell is just one.
Damned slayer 04-04-08, 12:22 PM	I don't often see character that could benefit from greater magic fang especially not the ones that have UMD as Class Skill
elonin 04-04-08, 12:57 PM	Don't know what the OP wanted to use that spell for. Maybe he's also a lycanthrope or something like that. I'm curious where did you get the 40 dc for a permenancy scroll the dc 29 (20 + caster level)? Does the higher UMD check get you a higher caster level (as UMD with a staff does) or revert to whatever the level of scroll is?
Damned slayer 04-04-08, 12:59 PM	Don't know what the OP wanted to use that spell for. Maybe he's also a lycanthrope or something like that. I'm curious where did you get the 40 dc for a permenancy scroll the dc 29 (20 + caster level)? Does the higher UMD check get you a higher caster level (as UMD with a staff does) or revert to whatever the level of scroll is? he wants CL 20 so ppl can't dispel the spell with a simple dispel magic i guess
Merestil Haye 04-04-08, 01:48 PM	Just a small point. The Permanency scroll listed in the DMG is wrongly priced. The list price is 10,125gp. The footnote states that this includes a 2,000xp "pool" to make the chosen spell permanent. By the rules, this means that the market price includes 2,000 * 5 = 10,000gp to compensate for the xp. Therefore the base cost of the scroll is 125gp. Since the basic cost of a second level spell is 150gp, that prices the scroll as a 1st level spell at CL5. Which is, simply put, wrong. If you assume that the scroll should be a 5th level spell scribed at 9th level the base price is 1,125 + 10,000 = 11,125. That would enable you to make a first level spell permanent, and nothing higher. The maximum level of spell that can be made permanent is (Permanency CL-8). To make Greater Magic Fang permanent requires at least a CL11 scroll, with appropriate increase in base cost. And you're still being overcharged for the xp pool. The DM needs to recalculate the cost of the scroll according to the specifications of the spell to be made permanent. Or do what I do - make the person receiving the permanent spell pay the XP at the time of casting.
Baninor 04-04-08, 03:20 PM	If your a monk and your wanting the amulet, you should talk to your DM about some other form of increasing your damage. Amulet of Mighty Fists is designed around having 3 natural weapons. Most monks have 1.
kalstrand 04-04-08, 06:43 PM	You can't take 10 on a UMD check. Skill Mastery only lets you take 10 when stress or distractions would prevent it.
elonin 04-04-08, 08:03 PM	You can't take 10 on a UMD check. Skill Mastery only lets you take 10 when stress or distractions would prevent it. After reading around on the web I see that there is something of a concensus about this. Wish this were clearer in the phb. I would have wanted to say, "skill mastery lets you take 10 when you otherwise couldn't (says adverse conditions). The text under UMD implies adverse conditions (mishap). Still the example I posted above has an easy time of making a dc and woudn't risk mishap (with that dc) but may roll a 1 and not be able to use the item for 24 hours. Just a small point. The Permanency scroll listed in the DMG is wrongly priced. The list price is 10,125gp. The footnote states that this includes a 2,000xp "pool" to make the chosen spell permanent. By the rules, this means that the market price includes 2,000 * 5 = 10,000gp to compensate for the xp. Therefore the base cost of the scroll is 125gp. Since the basic cost of a second level spell is 150gp, that prices the scroll as a 1st level spell at CL5. Which is, simply put, wrong. If you assume that the scroll should be a 5th level spell scribed at 9th level the base price is 1,125 + 10,000 = 11,125. That would enable you to make a first level spell permanent, and nothing higher. The maximum level of spell that can be made permanent is (Permanency CL-8). To make Greater Magic Fang permanent requires at least a CL11 scroll, with appropriate increase in base cost. And you're still being overcharged for the xp pool. The DM needs to recalculate the cost of the scroll according to the specifications of the spell to be made permanent. Or do what I do - make the person receiving the permanent spell pay the XP at the time of casting. You are correct about needing a higher level scroll for higher level permenancies. However, the PHB states that magic fang is 9th level (and costs 500). Magic fang greater is 11th level.
Merestil Haye 04-04-08, 08:12 PM	You are correct about needing a higher level scroll for higher level permenancies. However, the PHB states that magic fang is 9th level (and costs 500). Magic fang greater is 11th level.But the OP is asking for Greater Magic Fang. Therefore the DMG specified scroll simply will not do. This is quite apart from the issue of these supposedly super-intelligent characters who insist on pouring 2,000xp into a scroll (enough, note, to make a 4th level spell permanent) while at the same time writing the scroll in such a way as to limit it to making only a first level spell permanent. Can you not see the incongruity of this? The waste? Permanency should be rewritten so that the recipient of the permanent spell pays the XP at the time the spell is made permanent.
elonin 04-04-08, 08:38 PM	Oh I missed that. You've got a good point. There are two solutions that are fair enough. The first one would be charge for spell level x caster level plus enough exp for max level of that spell. The second way would leave the exp off and charge to the caster. That does go against how scrolls are normally done. Another question. I've heard a bit of a debate about staffs. Do you use the emulate class feature (spell casting) using your UMD roll -20?
Eldritch_Lord 04-04-08, 09:11 PM	Are you sure about the scroll disappearing unless the check is missed by more than 10. That's what I meant by "failure;" you might take damage or lose the spell if you fail by certain amounts. I should have clarified that that won't always happen if you fail. Also, it's possible to make that result by level 10. Consider that anyone who is building this way is going to max this skill "13+ have skill mastery (roll) 10+ circlit of persuasion +3, cha bonus +3, cha enhancing item (or eagles splendor) +2, magical aptitude +2, synergy bonuses (spell craft and decipher script)+4, and item of competence bonus UMD +5 =42 It is possible, but I said you might not be able to make it every time, which risks backlash or losing the spell; most likely anyone trying this hard to enchant natural weapons wouldn't have UMD as a class skill (or would have to burn a feat to keep it), meaning his ranks would be halved--and, as already mentioned, you can't use skill mastery--so you'd have 1d20+25 for a 20% success chance.
elonin 04-04-08, 09:27 PM	Magic Fang is a horrible example for what I was talking about. Who knows what the OP meant. Perhaps he has levels of monk, is a lycanthrope,or some ecl creature any of which would throw my build out the window. At the same time you only risk a mishap if your result is 10 or less. Certainly you can fail (no effect) without mishap. It's also possible to roll a 1 and not have a mishap.