Post/Author/DateTime	Post
BeauJest 07-27-07, 10:03 AM	If a specialist wizard has ranks in Use Magic Device, is it correct to assume you can activate wands, scrolls, etc. from your prohibited schools with a successful UMD check? These checks mean you can consider the spell on your spell list, so assuming that's the only hurdle it should work. Yes?
elondir 07-27-07, 10:17 AM	Yeah, anyone can use UMD. It's a very useful thing. In fact, if you pump UMD and get a staff of holy word, you can emulate crazy-high caster levels and annihilate everything in sight. I don't think that's been capped yet RAW.
tarkin 07-27-07, 10:54 AM	Elondir, you have misinterepreted the rules. What you are using is an Anything Goes House Rule, not the real rules. Use Magic Device lets you 'emulate' things ONLY to ACTIVATE a magic item. In fact there is NO ability to 'emulate a caster level'. What there is, is an an ability called Use a Scroll, whose DC is dependent upon the minimum caster level of the scroll. When used with a staff, the emulation lets you activate the staff only. It does not in any way emulate ANY caster level, let alone something higher than the minimum to cast the spell. Use a Scroll If you are casting a spell from a scroll, you have to decipher it first. Normally, to cast a spell from a scroll, you must have the scroll’s spell on your class spell list. Use Magic Device allows you to use a scroll as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. The DC is equal to 20 + the caster level of the spell you are trying to cast from the scroll. In addition, casting a spell from a scroll requires a minimum score (10 + spell level) in the appropriate ability. If you don’t have a sufficient score in that ability, you must emulate the ability score with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above). This use of the skill also applies to other spell completion magic items. Use a Wand Normally, to use a wand, you must have the wand’s spell on your class spell list. This use of the skill allows you to use a wand as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. This use of the skill also applies to other spell trigger magic items, such as staffs.
risner 07-27-07, 05:56 PM	If a specialist wizard has ranks in Use Magic Device, is it correct to assume you can activate wands, scrolls, etc. from your prohibited schools with a successful UMD check? These checks mean you can consider the spell on your spell list, so assuming that's the only hurdle it should work. Yes? Yes, the only way for a Wizard to activate spells on prohibited spell list is via UMD.
SunTzuWarmaster 07-27-07, 06:23 PM	Actually, by RAW, it isnt capped. Because a staff uses how much a UMD check exceeds 20 to determine the caster level, if you have an extremely high UMD score, you can emulate an extremely high caster level. For instance, if you have a staff of Magic Missile, a rogue with 1 UMD rank (no charisma) rolled a 19, it would active. If you had a UMD bonus of 3 and rolled a 20, you would have a caster level of 3 for the purposes of activating it (you are emulating the class feature of a 3rd level wizard), and it would shoot 2 Magic Missiles. This break down at high levels for obvious reasons. In our campaign, we capped it at caster level=character level (which is reasonable).
JadeSpider9643 07-27-07, 07:05 PM	Actually, by RAW, it isnt capped. Because a staff uses how much a UMD check exceeds 20 to determine the caster level, if you have an extremely high UMD score, you can emulate an extremely high caster level. For instance, if you have a staff of Magic Missile, a rogue with 1 UMD rank (no charisma) rolled a 19, it would active. If you had a UMD bonus of 3 and rolled a 20, you would have a caster level of 3 for the purposes of activating it (you are emulating the class feature of a 3rd level wizard), and it would shoot 2 Magic Missiles. This break down at high levels for obvious reasons. In our campaign, we capped it at caster level=character level (which is reasonable). :bigeyes: :uh-huh: :mymy: :shocked: :looloo: :88E: Where the heck did you come up with that rediculous idea?! Emulating a class feature with UMD does not actually grant you that class feature. It lets you activate the item as if you had the minimum requirements to do so. in the case of a staff that means "the spell on your list" which means you need a spell list, a lvl 1 spellcaster ability. UMD DC 21. that's it. Beating the DC by 10 or 200 doesn't do ANYTHING. You don't actually HAVE the superior caster level to subsitute in place of the staff's caster level. activating a staff with a UMD check uses the minimum caster level necessary to cast the spell. just as if a lvl 1 wizard with 10 Inteligence had activated it.
JLaurHughes 07-28-07, 03:17 AM	You're forgetting something. As per RAW a specialist wizard cannot cast spells from a prohibited school. Spells of the prohibited school or schools are not available to the wizard, and she can’t even cast such spells from scrolls or fire them from wands. She may not change either her specialization or her prohibited schools later.
Merestil Haye 07-28-07, 04:53 AM	You're forgetting something. As per RAW a specialist wizard cannot cast spells from a prohibited school.So? A wizard using UMD to activate a scroll, staff or wand isn't casting a spell. He is taking the Activate Item action, which is not the same thing at all.
JLaurHughes 07-28-07, 04:07 PM	If the Wizard is using an item such as a scroll or wand from a prohibited school they are not able to use it. BECAUSE it is from a prohibited school not a prohibited class. To top this, UMD isn't even on a Wizard's Skill List. They don't need it, and even if you cross class so you can use cleric spell scrolls you still wont be able to cast spells from a prohibited school. If you want to have a wizard that casts spells without being limited in this way, just go straight wizard no specialist schools.
Merestil Haye 07-28-07, 04:28 PM	If the Wizard is using an item such as a scroll or wand from a prohibited school they are not able to use it. BECAUSE it is from a prohibited school not a prohibited class.Utterly irrelevant. The criterion for being able to activate a scroll, staff or wand is that the spell be on the character's class spell list(s). It does not matter whether the spell is not on the character's list because it's from a prohibited school or because the character has no spell list. The result is the same - the character does not have the spell on his or her list. To top this, UMD isn't even on a Wizard's Skill List.So? Does that mean they can't learn the skill? UMD allows a character to fool a device into reacting as if something false is actually true. A character cannot activate a wand without having that spell on his class spell list. UMD allows the character to make the device react as if he did. There is no statement in the description of the skill or anywhere else that you can use UMD if you don't have a spell list, but can't use it if you have a prohibited school. They don't need it, and even if you cross class so you can use cleric spell scrolls you still wont be able to cast spells from a prohibited school. If you want to have a wizard that casts spells without being limited in this way, just go straight wizard no specialist schools.Again, incorrect. Limitations on one classes spell list do not in any way, shape or form apply to the other. A Conjurer 19 / Sorcerer 1 with Illusion as a banned school can use a wand of invisibility without hindrance.
Nom 07-28-07, 05:36 PM	Again, incorrect. Limitations on one classes spell list do not in any way, shape or form apply to the other. A Conjurer 19 / Sorcerer 1 with Illusion as a banned school can use a wand of invisibility without hindrance.Of course, if he tries to use a scroll of invisibility then he must use his sorcerer caster level of 1 rather than his conjurer caster level of 19.
jaelis 07-28-07, 05:42 PM	Just to confirm what others have said about the caster level on a staff, here's what the cust serve online answers database has: Is it possible to activate a staff with the use magic device skill at a higher level than given in the staff's description? While you can activate the staff using the same DC listed under "use a wand," and you can emulate many other requirements, you may not emulate a higher level of spellcaster. Because of this, if you do not possess levels of the appropriate spellcasting class yourself, you may only activate the staff at the minimum level given in the item's description.
zorgling25 07-28-07, 05:57 PM	For instance, if you have a staff of Magic Missile, a rogue with 1 UMD rank (no charisma) rolled a 19, it would active. If you had a UMD bonus of 3 and rolled a 20, you would have a caster level of 3 for the purposes of activating it (you are emulating the class feature of a 3rd level wizard), and it would shoot 2 Magic Missiles. This break down at high levels for obvious reasons. In our campaign, we capped it at caster level=character level (which is reasonable) Caster level isn't a class feature, its an ability inherent to the level of the casting class, like BAB, Hit Dice, or Base Saves. So? A wizard using UMD to activate a scroll, staff or wand isn't casting a spell. He is taking the Activate Item action, which is not the same thing at all. However, the wording of the specialist wizards entry DOES prohibit the use of wands specifically. Activating Staves, Rings, Rods, and other magic items seems to be ok though.
jaelis 07-28-07, 06:05 PM	However, the wording of the specialist wizards entry DOES prohibit the use of wands specifically. Activating Staves, Rings, Rods, and other magic items seems to be ok though. Most people would say that prohibition is about regular (non-UMD) use of wands. A specialist simply removes the chosen schools from his spell list, but he can still use UMD to trigger items just like any other items with spells that aren't on his list.
zorgling25 07-28-07, 06:12 PM	Most people would say that prohibition is about regular (non-UMD) use of wands. A specialist simply removes the chosen schools from his spell list, but he can still use UMD to trigger items just like any other items with spells that aren't on his list. What most people would say and RAW are two different things. RAW there is nothing to say that UMD circumvents the fact that Specialists can't use wands in their prohibited schools.
Vegepygmy 07-28-07, 06:26 PM	RAW there is nothing to say that UMD circumvents the fact that Specialists can't use wands in their prohibited schools.Yes, there is. The first line of the UMD skill description: Use this skill to activate magic devices, including scrolls and wands, that you could not otherwise activate.
zorgling25 07-28-07, 06:30 PM	Yes, there is. The first line of the UMD skill description: Use this skill to activate magic devices, including scrolls and wands, that you could not otherwise activate. That part is fluff text. The text under the Check section dictates what the skill can actually do, and none of those say that UMD can do that.
Sphere 07-28-07, 07:14 PM	Just emulate the sorcerer spell list. Being a specialist wizard does not prohibit the casting of spells from any other class than wizard, as stated in the FAQ.
zorgling25 07-28-07, 08:02 PM	Just emulate the sorcerer spell list. Being a specialist wizard does not prohibit the casting of spells from any other class than wizard, as stated in the FAQ. Correct me if I'm wrong, but IIRC it still prevents the use of wands...
jaelis 07-28-07, 09:05 PM	Correct me if I'm wrong... Well, we keep trying...
ArcTan 07-28-07, 09:30 PM	What most people would say and RAW are two different things. RAW there is nothing to say that UMD circumvents the fact that Specialists can't use wands in their prohibited schools. Specialists can't use wands in their prohibited schools because the prohibited school keeps the spell off the spell list. It doesn't prevent them in any way from *otherwise* getting access to that spell, like UMDing it or dipping a level into Sorcerer.
zorgling25 07-28-07, 09:38 PM	Well, we keep trying... My point was that if a Sorcerer/Wizard can't use wands of a Wizard's restricted schools, then a Wizard with UMD can't do it by emulating a Sorcerer's spellcasting. Am I incorrect in saying a Sorcerer/Wizard can't use wands of the Wizard's restricted school? As of yet, no one has provided me with conclusive evidence from RAW that you can use UMD to activate restricted wands or scrolls. I agree that staffs and other magic items are usable, because they are not explicitly put out by the Specialist Wizard description. I also agree that with another class, he can cast spells of a restricted school. UMD, however does not emulate classes. It emulates class FEATURES for the purpose of activating items, meaning when activating the item, he is still be treated as a wizard, even though he has "sorcerer casting" class feature. As such, he is still restricted from casting from scrolls or activating wands, since he is using them as a wizard.
zorgling25 07-28-07, 09:44 PM	Specialists can't use wands in their prohibited schools because the prohibited school keeps the spell off the spell list. It doesn't prevent them in any way from *otherwise* getting access to that spell, like UMDing it or dipping a level into Sorcerer. Spells of the prohibited school or schools are not available to the wizard, and she can’t even cast such spells from scrolls or fire them from wands. She may not change either her specialization or her prohibited schools later. Emphasis on the "and". Is there anything there suggesting a causal relationship?
JLaurHughes 07-28-07, 10:10 PM	Emphasis on the "and". Is there anything there suggesting a causal relationship? Finally someone who sees the same thing I do when I read that SRD quote.
JadeSpider9643 07-28-07, 10:14 PM	My point was that if a Sorcerer/Wizard can't use wands of a Wizard's restricted schools, then a Wizard with UMD can't do it by emulating a Sorcerer's spellcasting. Am I incorrect in saying a Sorcerer/Wizard can't use wands of the Wizard's restricted school? As of yet, no one has provided me with conclusive evidence from RAW that you can use UMD to activate restricted wands or scrolls. I agree that staffs and other magic items are usable, because they are not explicitly put out by the Specialist Wizard description. I also agree that with another class, he can cast spells of a restricted school. UMD, however does not emulate classes. It emulates class FEATURES for the purpose of activating items, meaning when activating the item, he is still be treated as a wizard, even though he has "sorcerer casting" class feature. As such, he is still restricted from casting from scrolls or activating wands, since he is using them as a wizard. Yes, you are incorrect in saying a Sorcerer/Wizard can't use wands of the Wizard's restricted school. He could do it simply by his nature of being a Sorcerer, he doesn't even need the UMD skill. You don't need conclusive evidence, this is obvious stuff, and you won't find a RAW entry stating it. Similar to how you won't find a RAW entry stating you can't take actions when you're dead, or how you won't find a entry that states you can't sprout 100 tentacles with 15ft reach and d20 damage just by saying that you do. UMD is the bypass to activating all the things that you couldn't otherwise activate, it's the trump, the ace of spades. Any magic item you can't use because of alignment, or scroll you can't activate, UMD says "oh yes you can, just make a reasonably difficult skill check in what's usually not a class skill and most people can't take 10 on." you've already been told all this though, so i have no reason to believe you're even paying any attention to what people are telling you. You're set in your ways and you're not going to change. any further attempts to convince you are pointless since you simply arn't willing to accept that you're wrong.
zorgling25 07-28-07, 10:27 PM	Yes, you are incorrect in saying a Sorcerer/Wizard can't use wands of the Wizard's restricted school. He could do it simply by his nature of being a Sorcerer, he doesn't even need the UMD skill. OK, fine, then I'm wrong. Put me in the camp that says that you can UMD wands as a specialist, by emulating the sorcerer casting class feature. UMD is the bypass to activating all the things that you couldn't otherwise activate, it's the trump, the ace of spades. Any magic item you can't use because of alignment, or scroll you can't activate, UMD says "oh yes you can, just make a reasonably difficult skill check in what's usually not a class skill and most people can't take 10 on." This I don't agree with. UMD has set out uses that are listed in its entry for the purpose of RAW. Any uses beyond those listed in the UMD entry are your houserules. UMD specifically says it emulates class features, not class levels. You can emulate sorcerer casting or lay on hands for the purpose of items that require them, but you can't emulate being a 5th level sorcerer or 2nd level paladin for items that have that listed as a requirement.
JadeSpider9643 07-28-07, 10:39 PM	OK, fine, then I'm wrong. Put me in the camp that says that you can UMD wands as a specialist, by emulating the sorcerer casting class feature. This I don't agree with. UMD has set out uses that are listed in its entry for the purpose of RAW. Any uses beyond those listed in the UMD entry are your houserules. UMD specifically says it emulates class features, not class levels. You can emulate sorcerer casting or lay on hands for the purpose of items that require them, but you can't emulate being a 5th level sorcerer or 2nd level paladin for items that have that listed as a requirement. Yes, it emulates class features.... Class Features All of the following are class features of the wizard. Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Wizards are proficient with the club, dagger, heavy crossbow, light crossbow, and quarterstaff, but not with any type of armor or shield. Armor of any type interferes with a wizard’s movements, which can cause her spells with somatic components to fail. Spells: A wizard casts arcane spells which are drawn from the sorcerer/ wizard spell list. A wizard must choose and prepare her spells ahead of time (see below). To learn, prepare, or cast a spell, the wizard must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a wizard’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the wizard’s Intelligence modifier. Like other spellcasters, a wizard can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Wizard. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Intelligence score. Unlike a bard or sorcerer, a wizard may know any number of spells. She must choose and prepare her spells ahead of time by getting a good night’s sleep and spending 1 hour studying her spellbook. While studying, the wizard decides which spells to prepare. .....yada yada yada familiars, bonus feats...yada... Spell casting IS a class feature, a classes spell list is determined by that class's version of the spellcasting class feature. As seen here, a wizard uses the "Sorcerer/wizard" spell list. UMD can emulate a spellcasting class feature of a class that has a spell list that includes the prohibited spells.
zorgling25 07-28-07, 10:42 PM	Yes, it emulates class features.... Spell casting IS a class feature, a classes spell list is determined by that class's version of the spellcasting class feature. As seen here, a wizard uses the "Sorcerer/wizard" spell list. UMD can emulate a spellcasting class feature of a class that has a spell list that includes the prohibited spells. You COMPLETELY misread what I said. I said that it DID emulate class features. What it DOESN'T do is emulate class LEVELS. I agree with you that UMD lets a wizard emulate Sorcerer Casting and use prohibited items. It is NOT the answer to everything. You can emulate class features, races, alignments, and ability scores. Anything ELSE you can emulate is at your DMs discretion and a house rule. Class LEVELS happens to be one of those things. It also cannot emulate, say, a specific spell effect that must be cast on you to activate a magic item. It also cannot emulate racial abilities such as darkvision or powerful build.
Max Octavious Xavier 07-28-07, 10:56 PM	USE MAGIC DEVICE (CHA; TRAINED ONLY) Use this skill to activate magic Check: You can use this skill to read a spell or to activate a magic item. Use Magic Device lets you use a magic item as if you had the spell ability or class features of another class, as if you were a different race, or as if you were of a different alignment. You make a Use Magic Device check each time you activate a device such as a wand. If you are using the check to emulate an alignment or some other quality in an ongoing manner, you need to make the relevant Use Magic Device check once per hour. You must consciously choose which requirement to emulate. That is, you must know what you are trying to emulate when you make a Use Magic Device check for that purpose. The DCs for various tasks involving Use Magic Device checks are summarized on the table below. Task Use Magic Device DC Activate blindly 25 Decipher a written spell 25 + spell level Use a scroll 20 + caster level Use a wand 20 Emulate a class feature 20 Emulate an ability score See text Emulate a race 25 Emulate an alignment 30 Activate Blindly: Some magic items are activated by special words, thoughts, or actions. You can activate such an item as if you were using the activation word, thought, or action, even when you’re not and even if you don’t know it. You do have to perform some equivalent activity in order to make the check. That is, you must speak, wave the item around, or otherwise attempt to get it to activate. You get a special +2 bonus on your Use Magic Device check if you’ve activated the item in question at least once before. If you fail by 9 or less, you can’t activate the device. If you fail by 10 or more, you suffer a mishap. A mishap means that magical energy gets released but it doesn’t do what you wanted it to do. The default mishaps are that the item affects the wrong target or that uncontrolled magical energy is released, dealing 2d6 points of damage to you. This mishap is in addition to the chance for a mishap that you normally run when you cast a spell from a scroll that you could not otherwise cast yourself. Decipher a Written Spell: This usage works just like deciphering a written spell with the Spellcraft skill, except that the DC is 5 points higher. Deciphering a written spell requires 1 minute of concentration. Emulate an Ability Score: To cast a spell from a scroll, you need a high score in the appropriate ability (Intelligence for wizard spells, Wisdom for divine spells, or Charisma for sorcerer or bard spells). Your effective ability score (appropriate to the class you’re emulating when you try to cast the spell from the scroll) is your Use Magic Device check result minus 15. If you already have a high enough score in the appropriate ability, you don’t need to make this check. Emulate an Alignment: Some magic items have positive or negative effects based on the user’s alignment. Use Magic Device lets you use these items as if you were of an alignment of your choice. You can emulate only one alignment at a time. Emulate a Class Feature: Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature. If the class whose feature you are emulating has an alignment requirement, you must meet it, either honestly or by emulating an appropriate alignment with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above). Emulate a Race: Some magic items work only for members of certain races, or work better for members of those races. You can use such an item as if you were a race of your choice. You can emulate only one race at a time. Use a Scroll: If you are casting a spell from a scroll, you have to decipher it first. Normally, to cast a spell from a scroll, you must have the scroll’s spell on your class spell list. Use Magic Device allows you to use a scroll as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. The DC is equal to 20 + the caster level of the spell you are trying to cast from the scroll. In addition, casting a spell from a scroll requires a minimum score (10 + spell level) in the appropriate ability. If you don’t have a sufficient score in that ability, you must emulate the ability score with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above). This use of the skill also applies to other spell completion magic items. Use a Wand: Normally, to use a wand, you must have the wand’s spell on your class spell list. This use of the skill allows you to use a wand as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. This use of the skill also applies to other spell trigger magic items, such as staffs. Action: None. The Use Magic Device check is made as part of the action (if any) required to activate the magic item. Try Again: Yes, but if you ever roll a natural 1 while attempting to activate an item and you fail, then you can’t try to activate that item again for 24 hours. Special: You cannot take 10 with this skill. You can’t aid another on Use Magic Device checks. Only the user of the item may attempt such a check. If you have the Magical Aptitude feat, you get a +2 bonus on Use Magic Device checks. Synergy: If you have 5 or more ranks in Spellcraft, you get a +2 bonus on Use Magic Device checks related to scrolls. If you have 5 or more ranks in Decipher Script, you get a +2 bonus on Use Magic Device checks related to scrolls. If you have 5 or more ranks in Use Magic Device, you get a +2 bonus to Spellcraft checks made to decipher spells on scrolls. .... SCHOOL SPECIALIZATION A school is one of eight groupings of spells, each defined by a common theme. If desired, a wizard may specialize in one school of magic (see below). Specialization allows a wizard to cast extra spells from her chosen school, but she then never learns to cast spells from some other schools. A specialist wizard can prepare one additional spell of her specialty school per spell level each day. She also gains a +2 bonus on Spellcraft checks to learn the spells of her chosen school. The wizard must choose whether to specialize and, if she does so, choose her specialty at 1st level. At this time, she must also give up two other schools of magic (unless she chooses to specialize in divination; see below), which become her prohibited schools. A wizard can never give up divination to fulfill this requirement. Spells of the prohibited school or schools are not available to the wizard, and she can’t even cast such spells from scrolls or fire them from wands. She may not change either her specialization or her prohibited schools later.Posted just so we all know what is going on.
ArcTan 07-28-07, 11:11 PM	Emphasis on the "and". Is there anything there suggesting a causal relationship? How about every WotC statement on the matter afterwards, in the FAQ, RotG *and* official sourcebooks? (Like, say, Complete Mage, where multiclassing Wiz/Sor is explicitly mentioned as a way to get around specialization, and is part of the strategy of building an Ultimate Magus PrC?)
zorgling25 07-28-07, 11:19 PM	How about every WotC statement on the matter afterwards, in the FAQ, RotG *and* official sourcebooks? (Like, say, Complete Mage, where multiclassing Wiz/Sor is explicitly mentioned as a way to get around specialization, and is part of the strategy of building an Ultimate Magus PrC?) Read my more recent posts. I've found my error there. I agree that Specialists can use restricted items with UMD. My current argument is on a different front, directed at those who say UMD is the end all be all of activation. Its not. There are plenty of things it can't emulate. It can't emulate class levels. It can't emulate racial abilities. And it can't emulate that fuzzy brown spot on the BBEG's nose.
Nathreet 07-29-07, 12:44 AM	And it can't emulate that fuzzy brown spot on the BBEG's nose. UMD scroll of disguise self. Sorry... I had to do it. I get what you mean.
Metafictional 07-29-07, 01:04 AM	I'm feeling lazy. What's a magic item UMD can't be used to activate, then? (Got Unlazy) "Use Magic Device lets you use a magic item as if you had the spell ability or class features of another class, as if you were a different race, or as if you were of a different alignment." It also allows you to emulate ability scores. As per the SRD, the four ways to activate a magic item are: Spell Completion: Scrolls, UMD does this. Spell Trigger: Wands, UMD does this. Use-Activated: UMD can do this, for those rare items that need to be activated; probably with Activate Blindly, unless you have knowledge of the item.... Command Word: UMD can do this, although most likely only with Activate Blindly, unless the word is known.
zorgling25 07-29-07, 01:14 AM	I'm feeling lazy. What's a magic item UMD can't be used to activate, then? You're forgetting that it could also be used to increase benefit from an always-active magic item, not just activate other ones. One restriction of my argument is that you can't use UMD to emulate a 20th level monk and gain a higher AC bonus and unarmed damage from a Monk's Belt. By the argument of one of the previous posters, this is possible. By RAW its not. It can emulate lots of stuff to activate items or get an increased bonus. I know I sound like a broken record but it does have limitations.
Metafictional 07-29-07, 01:19 AM	Oh ok, I thought you were saying that there were some items UMD can't activate. No such animal, really. Now one thing that I do hear a lot is people trying to use UMD to emulate an ability score with a Staff, based on this line: "Staffs use the wielder’s ability score and relevant feats to set the DC for saves against their spells." My counterpoint is always that you do not need a certain ability score to activate a staff, hence while you CAN emulate an Intelligence of 182, you can only do so in the unlikely event you'd need that high of an Int to activate the item in the first place, which a Staff does not require. Just getting that out there before someone asks about it!
Pentar 07-29-07, 01:20 AM	Emphasis on the "and". Is there anything there suggesting a causal relationship? EDIT: Whoops! I should read the entire thread before I post! Message irrelevant. Deletion process completed. Have a nice day.
Metafictional 07-29-07, 01:25 AM	Uh, wait, just caught this. "You're forgetting that it could also be used to increase benefit from an always-active magic item, not just activate other ones." I don't recall anything about UMD doing that in the description (see page 1 where someone kindly posted it in detail). Always active magic items are activated by their use (wear boots, swing a sword), and if they require a standard action to activate an effect, it's a standard action. So um...how could you use UMD to increase the benefit from a magic item?
JadeSpider9643 07-29-07, 01:30 AM	You're forgetting that it could also be used to increase benefit from an always-active magic item, not just activate other ones. One restriction of my argument is that you can't use UMD to emulate a 20th level monk and gain a higher AC bonus and unarmed damage from a Monk's Belt. By the argument of one of the previous posters, this is possible. By RAW its not. It can emulate lots of stuff to activate items or get an increased bonus. I know I sound like a broken record but it does have limitations. I assume you are blatantly misreading my statement that UMD was the "ace of spades FOR MAGIC ITEM ACTIVATION" Some people can't see the forest for the trees.... Obviously you can't use UMD to emulate being a lvl 200 super diety. Blood heck, just READ WHAT IT DOES! It's very well written and crystal clear if you read it for comprehension and try to understand it instead of trying to dig up loopholes due to poor verb tense and conjunction usage!!!:censored: :headexplo :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
zorgling25 07-29-07, 01:30 AM	Emulate a Race Some magic items work only for members of certain races, or work better for members of those races. You can use such an item as if you were a race of your choice. You can emulate only one race at a time. I guess I mis-worded my statement. Some items do, however give greater bonuses to certain classes/races. I was referring to items that give passive bonuses like, say, a Belt of Dwarvenkind or a Monk's Belt.
zorgling25 07-29-07, 01:33 AM	I assume you are blatantly misreading my statement that UMD was the "ace of spades FOR MAGIC ITEM ACTIVATION" Some people can't see the forest for the trees.... Obviously you can't use UMD to emulate being a lvl 200 super diety. Blood heck, just READ WHAT IT DOES! It's very well written and crystal clear if you read it for comprehension and try to understand it instead of trying to dig up loopholes due to poor verb tense and conjunction usage!!!:censored: :headexplo :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: I was more referring to SunTzuWarmaster's post on page 1. Not all magic items that can be UMD-ed are activated. Example: Using UMD to emulate an alignment appropriate to a given Robe of the Archmagi.
Metafictional 07-29-07, 01:46 AM	Man, the SRD write up of the Belt of Dwarvenkind makes it sound like it would be better to emulate NOT being a Dwarf, lol. "This belt gives the wearer a +4 competence bonus on Charisma checks and Charisma-based skill checks as they relate to dealing with dwarves, a +2 competence bonus on similar checks when dealing with gnomes and halflings, and a -2 competence penalty on similar checks when dealing with anyone else. The wearer can understand, speak, and read Dwarven. If the wearer is not a dwarf, he gains 60-foot darkvision, dwarven stonecunning, a +2 enhancement bonus to Constitution, and a +2 resistance bonus on saves against poison, spells, or spell-like effects." So yes, UMD does let you use Race-based items in a better way. It also allows you to use Alignment-based items in a better way. Oddly, it won't help you with the Monk's Belt. "Emulate a Class Feature Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature. If the class whose feature you are emulating has an alignment requirement, you must meet it, either honestly or by emulating an appropriate alignment with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above)." No Class Feature is required to use a Monk's Belt, and this particular use of UMD, unlike the Emulate Race/Alignment use, DOES NOT choose to let you use the item "better". The Monk's Belt has the following benefits: "This simple rope belt, when wrapped around a character’s waist, confers great ability in unarmed combat. The wearer’s AC and unarmed damage is treated as a monk of five levels higher. If donned by a character with the Stunning Fist feat, the belt lets her make one additional stunning attack per day. If the character is not a monk, she gains the AC and unarmed damage of a 5th-level monk. This AC bonus functions just like the monk’s AC bonus." So, if you are a Monk, your AC and Unarmed Strike damage are increased by one step (+1 AC, next higher damage) as if you were 5 levels higher. OK! If you have Stunning Fist (Feat) you get another use. If you're not a Monk, you get the SAME BENEFIT as a Monk, getting the AC and unarmed damage of a Monk 5 levels higher (as you are a Monk 0, that means as a Monk 5). No "Class Feature" is required to use a Monk's belt, so no cheating with UMD. That having been said, there are no doubt items that could let you "cheat", if they specifically call out a class feature and have a level-based effect. I don't see that the Monk's belt is one of those, however.
zorgling25 07-29-07, 02:01 AM	I don't see that the Monk's belt is one of those, however. Thats precisely my point. I cited the Monk's Belt as an example of UMD's limitations.
spectralphoenix 07-29-07, 02:06 AM	Of course, if he tries to use a scroll of invisibility then he must use his sorcerer caster level of 1 rather than his conjurer caster level of 19. Neither - he uses the level the scroll was created at, just like everyone else.
Metafictional 07-29-07, 02:45 AM	Ok Zorgling, I guess I got confused by your statements. I wouldn't say that's a limitation, really. You have the same chance to get a benefit out of an item as anyone else who doesn't meet it's special requirements. But you CAN activate it, even if normally you'd lack the knowledge or ability to, and in the case of racial or alignment-specific/intended items, you can one-up that. It's a pretty powerful skill....sort of (see my sig for a lengthy discussion on this; the opportunity cost on UMD is pretty high for the low-to-mid levels, and there's rarely a benefit since the vast majority of magic items can be used by any spellcaster). EDIT: Oh heck, realized I've posted several times without addressing the OP! Ahem, yes, you can use UMD to get around School Specialization. The game designers have pointed this out on several occasions, and multi-classing does work. The reason is, School Specialization is ambiguously written, what it should say is "spells from prohibited Schools are removed from your Wizard class spell list". This of course, does not remove them from any other spell list you may have, nor does it meddle with UMD, which allows you to use magic items without ANY spell list. Although I believe School Specialization meddles with the benefit of the Magic Domain, simply because the Magic Domain stacks with any Wizard levels you may have...
Merestil Haye 07-29-07, 04:24 AM	Neither - he uses the level the scroll was created at, just like everyone else.I think you misunderstand. The effect of the scroll is indeed based on the caster level the scroll was scribed at. But when the Wiz 19 / Conjurer 1 attempts to activate the scroll, he has to do so as a 1st level sorcerer (which requires a caster level check, 1d20+1 against a DC of 1 + scroll's CL) and not as a Wizard 19 (which does not require a caster level check). Since I'm here :Finally someone who sees the same thing I do when I read that SRD quote.Why are you applying the rules relating to the class ability of one class to the class ability of another class which does not contain the statement? Abilities granted by one class are entirely separate from abilities granted by another, unless the text of one class links the two class abilities together. Nothing in the text of the specialist wizard imposes a limitation on other spellcasting classes, or on using the UMD skill to emulate having the spell on your class list if the school is a forbidden one. Therefore a specialist wizard can use UMD to cause a wand or scroll to react as if he had that spell on his class list, because (a) UMD says you can, and (b) nothing about UMD or the specialist class rules deny that use of the ability to specialist wizards.
Nom 07-29-07, 11:37 PM	The effect of the scroll is indeed based on the caster level the scroll was scribed at. But when the Wiz 19 / Conjurer 1Wiz (conjurer) 19 / Sor 1 attempts to activate the scroll, he has to do so as a 1st level sorcerer (which requires a caster level check, 1d20+1 against a DC of 1 + scroll's CL) and not as a Wizard 19 (which does not require a caster level check).... and the character would be forced to use Cha rather than Int to satisfy the ability score requirement.
ravenshrike 07-30-07, 02:14 AM	In fact there is NO ability to 'emulate a caster level'. A caster level is a class ability for caster classes. Therefore, you can emulate a caster level in a specific class. Just to confirm what others have said about the caster level on a staff, here's what the cust serve online answers database has: They obviously did not read the verdammt skills section. Emulate a Class Feature Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature. If the class whose feature you are emulating has an alignment requirement, you must meet it, either honestly or by emulating an appropriate alignment with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above). Given that the only way to gain caster levels is to take a level in a spellcasting class, caster level is INDEED a class feature. Ergo, with a sufficiently high UMD score you can emulate a higher caster level which allows you to do something you normally couldn't, in this case activate a staff at higher CL. In order to activate a staff at a higher CL than it was created, you must have a higher caster level in the class that it was created by. Therefore, if you emulate the feature, all dependent variables upon that feature come into effect. That is a strict reading of the rules. As for the emulating a higher ability score, there are there other items than scrolls which use higher ability scores? If not, then you couldn't use it for the staff. If there are, and if it's commonly accepted that you can use UMD to qualify, then it's certainly possible. It's not particularly game breaking either(unless you're talking artificer), since it's what, spellthief, beguiler, rogue, and 'lock. that'll be using it? and of those, only the 'lock can take ten? Except for the beguiler, the others could specialize in it but would become one trick ponies, and compared to most actual casters, pretty weak ones at that.
tarkin 07-30-07, 11:11 AM	What bullcrap. You can not Emulate a Level, and if you did it STILL would not let you abuse a staff the way you want it to. 1. A caster level is NOT a class ability. The ability to cast spells is a class ability. A caster level is a specific measure of how well you do that class ability. 2. Even if it were, emulating a class ability does NOT GIVE YOU THAT CLASS ABILITY. All it does is let you trick a magic item into ACTIVATING. That is all emulating can do. No, you can not emulate the ability to Turn undead and then actually turn Undead using UMD. You can Emulate the ability to turn undead, and if a magic item requires you to have that ability, then it works. But you still would NOT be able to use that ability, even if the magic item was something that 'increased the level you turn undead at'. Why? Because while you emulate the ability to turn undead, you still can not actually turn undead. Similarly, even if you actually were allowed to Emualte a caster level (which you are not allowed to do), a staff would STILL not do more than activate. You get the MINIMUM level, because onec you get that, the staff is already activated. The skill is called "Use Magic Devices", not "Abuse Magic Devices"
zorgling25 07-30-07, 07:14 PM	Given that the only way to gain caster levels is to take a level in a spellcasting class, caster level is INDEED a class feature. Ergo, with a sufficiently high UMD score you can emulate a higher caster level which allows you to do something you normally couldn't, in this case activate a staff at higher CL. In order to activate a staff at a higher CL than it was created, you must have a higher caster level in the class that it was created by. Therefore, if you emulate the feature, all dependent variables upon that feature come into effect. That is a strict reading of the rules. By this logic, base attack bonus is also a class feature since the only way to have a full BAB is to take a class that grants it. The same would follow for base saves and hit dice. Caster level, like BAB, Base save, and HD are NOT class features. They are values inherent to your class level.
risner 07-30-07, 08:25 PM	I tuned out for 20 posts or so when things got wonkie here. So have we settled this? You can use UMD to activate spells in a staff or wand any spell not on you spell list (including prohibited spells.) Have we settled the question?
Metafictional 07-30-07, 09:47 PM	Yes you can use UMD to get around the Specialist restriction. Now we've moved onto unusual uses of the skill (or at least, house rulings thereof).