Post/Author/DateTime	Post
temparus2000 04-19-07, 09:48 PM	I did some math, and a character can spend 24,300 gold to buy a +9 insight, +9 luck, and a +9 competence bonus items for use magic device. At 8th level and max ranks, this give him a +38 to the use magic device skill. This enables him to use 9th level spell scroll without a chance of error! At 8th frikin' level! And it isn't even exclusive tyo rouges anymore. Am I missing something? I hope so because I'm niw considering outright banning this skill from my group.
Millenia 04-19-07, 09:58 PM	Don't ban the skill for what -items- do to it. If anything, you should ban the items that increase one's Use Magic Device modifier.... and so what if a rogue/bard/whatever spends 24,300 gp (out of their 27,000) to pump their skill? They won't be able to afford the more powerful magic items without borrowing from their buddies... >>a
DarkRhystar 04-19-07, 09:58 PM	24,300 gp out of a level 8 character's 27,000 gp standard wealth. Wow, it's too bad he actually doesn't have enough gold left to buy a level 9 scroll... or level 8... Or anything else. So he's a mostly naked Rogue with a lot of UMD and nothing really to use it on. Great.
temparus2000 04-19-07, 10:02 PM	24,300 gp out of a level 8 character's 27,000 gp standard wealth. Wow, it's too bad he actually doesn't have enough gold left to buy a level 9 scroll... or level 8... Or anything else. So he's a mostly naked Rogue with a lot of UMD and nothing really to use it on. Great. I'm pretty sure the other 3 characters would be willing to donate gold to the guy who could pop off 9th level spells at 8th level, so this post dosen't really help.
temparus2000 04-19-07, 10:04 PM	Don't ban the skill for what -items- do to it. If anything, you should ban the items that increase one's Use Magic Device modifier.... and so what if a rogue/bard/whatever spends 24,300 gp (out of their 27,000) to pump their skill? They won't be able to afford the more powerful magic items without borrowing from their buddies... >>a I know I would donate gold to the guy who could fire off a meteor swarm at the next monster
BugHunter 04-19-07, 10:07 PM	I did some math, and a character can spend 24,300 gold to buy a +9 insight, +9 luck, and a +9 competence bonus items for use magic device. Your math is incorrect when using the Table 7-33 on page 285 of the DMG the +9 competence bonus would cost 8,100 gold but the luck and insight bonus would each cost 162,000 gold. you need to use the line titled 'Save bonus(other)1'. If an eighth level has 332,100 gold laying around there are bigger issues. I hope this clearifies the bonus types.
ravenshrike 04-19-07, 10:08 PM	Yes, because when they can reliably hit a 25 they can gain immunity to disease, +2 to all saves, and cast etherealness(cl16) at will. All for only 3600 gp and a bit of time spent searching. Alternatively they can just hire a wizard to gate in a night hag an cast dimensional anchor, then kill it. edit - Admitidly, this is more a problem with warlocks/artificers, but still.
jaelis 04-19-07, 10:10 PM	I know I would donate gold to the guy who could fire off a meteor swarm at the next monster A scroll of meteor swarm costs about 3800 gp. The average treasure for a CR 8 encounter is 3400 gp. So good luck with that. But more to the point, there are no WotC published items that boost UMD. If you as a DM want to introduce one, that's fine, but then it's up to you to keep things under control. In particular, I'd say a +5 competence bonus item is probably reasonable. Much more than that is probably not.
temparus2000 04-19-07, 10:16 PM	A scroll of meteor swarm costs about 3800 gp. The average treasure for a CR 8 encounter is 3400 gp. So good luck with that. But more to the point, there are no WotC published items that boost UMD. If you as a DM want to introduce one, that's fine, but then it's up to you to keep things under control. In particular, I'd say a +5 competence bonus item is probably reasonable. Much more than that is probably not. pg 123 of epic handbook: an enhancement to skill checks over +30 is epic, so anything +30 or less is allowed at non-epic prices
temparus2000 04-19-07, 10:19 PM	Your math is incorrect when using the Table 7-33 on page 285 of the DMG the +9 competence bonus would cost 8,100 gold but the luck and insight bonus would each cost 162,000 gold. you need to use the line titled 'Save bonus(other)1'. If an eighth level has 332,100 gold laying around there are bigger issues. I hope this clearifies the bonus types. this is true, I failed to see that the x100 only applied to competence bonuses. But why do you use the Save bonus (other)? I mean, why is that the default?
temparus2000 04-19-07, 10:21 PM	A scroll of meteor swarm costs about 3800 gp. The average treasure for a CR 8 encounter is 3400 gp. So good luck with that. But more to the point, there are no WotC published items that boost UMD. If you as a DM want to introduce one, that's fine, but then it's up to you to keep things under control. In particular, I'd say a +5 competence bonus item is probably reasonable. Much more than that is probably not. no, it wouldn't be a good financial move. But it can erase any single threatening creature. That alone is well worth the cost, even if that creature's treasure dosen't cover it
MikeN 04-19-07, 10:25 PM	What you do with that spell is use a scroll of Gate. You gate in a Genie or something with 3 wishes and bargain for its service "if you give me three wishes, I'll use one of them for whatever you want" Since the outsider can't use wish for himself, this is an attractive offer he'll probably agree to. Then you win D&D. :eek:
temparus2000 04-19-07, 10:25 PM	A scroll of meteor swarm costs about 3800 gp. The average treasure for a CR 8 encounter is 3400 gp. So good luck with that. But more to the point, there are no WotC published items that boost UMD. If you as a DM want to introduce one, that's fine, but then it's up to you to keep things under control. In particular, I'd say a +5 competence bonus item is probably reasonable. Much more than that is probably not. yes, I realize that it's my job to keep things in hand. I posted this thread to see if there was a written rule about this particular problem or not.
The_sleeper1 04-19-07, 10:27 PM	+20 competence bonus to UMD = 40,000gp and +27 = 72,900gp. on the other hand someone with a level in warlock can take 10 and only needs a +17 item at 28,900gp, mabey not at level 8 but mabey level 10-12.
Fireclave 04-19-07, 10:27 PM	If you houserule in broken items, other stuff will break. First, an item like the one you suggested, at the price you suggested, would never be allowed by "any sane DM." The pricing guidelines table in the DMG are for getting a very rough estimate of an item's value. The price of an item is a reflection of its usefulness, and the DMG suggests that an custom-made item should first be compared to another similar item when pricing. IMO, your sample item is similar to the crystal masks in the XPH. They provide a +10 to certain skills for a cost of 10,000gp each. I would say that the minimum price for your item is closer to 30,000 gp, but getting such a high bonus concentrated on one skill is huge. I would at least increase the price by +50%, making it closer to 45,000 gp. And that's probably being lenient. Second, even if you could auto-succeed on your UMD check, you still need items to use UMD on. Again, no sane DM will just have 9th level scrolls lying around. Such high levels casters are rare and finding them is an adventure in itself. Convincing them to craft you a scroll of possibly massive destructive power is another task entirely (especially if your potentially negligent use of their scroll can be traced back to them). Even if you had the gold, no sane caster will give you such a scroll simply for profit unless they were really strapped for cash (which, if given the appropriate amount of NPC wealth, they won't be). If these casters do give you the time of day, they will probably instead ask, as payment, for you to complete a task that either 1) they are not capable of doing themselves (ha!), 2) they don't feel like or have the time to do (most likely), or 3) because watching you fail would be amusing (also likely). If your character is willing to put out the gold and go through all the effort to procure a +30 to his UMD and a 9th level scroll, then let him have his one-shot. It will most likely be overkill (and potentially a waste of cash) for any level-appropriate challenge, and possibly ineffective against stuff 9th level spells normally target.
jaelis 04-19-07, 10:27 PM	pg 123 of epic handbook: an enhancement to skill checks over +30 is epic, so anything +30 or less is allowed at non-epic prices That table, and table 7-32 in the DMG, are guidelines to help a DM create custom items. Note "DM" and "custom." That means the DM decides what is reasonable (and what a reasonable price is), and that the DM is responsible for how they impact the game. If a DM lets players simply create items as they like based on those pricing formulas, he will have far worse problems than UMD boosters to worry about. If your point is that "the pricing guidelines for UMD boosting items aren't very good" then yeah, I'll probably agree. Although as others have noted, it's not nearly so bad as you first thought.
temparus2000 04-19-07, 10:28 PM	What you do with that spell is use a scroll of Gate. You gate in a Genie or something with 3 wishes and bargain for its service "if you give me three wishes, I'll use one of them for whatever you want" Since the outsider can't use wish for himself, this is an attractive offer he'll probably agree to. Then you win D&D. :eek: you probably won't be surprised that my players actually tried that once a while back:)
SunTzuWarmaster 04-19-07, 10:32 PM	If the party uses all of their money to research a new magic item, pay a high-level wizard for a 9th level scroll (that is likely self-researched), and use it on the next random encounter, that's fine. Really, I've got more monsters. They had better be using that at the epic time to use it, when the moon is full, the planets in alignment, and the BBEG is completing the ritual. Otherwise, it's a "woo-hoo, wasted a minotaur! But it was cool, it was a good waste of money".
temparus2000 04-19-07, 10:32 PM	If you houserule in broken items, other stuff will break. First, an item like the one you suggested, at the price you suggested, would never be allowed by "any sane DM." The pricing guidelines table in the DMG are for getting a very rough estimate of an item's value. The price of an item is a reflection of its usefulness, and the DMG suggests that an custom-made item should first be compared to another similar item when pricing. IMO, your sample item is similar to the crystal masks in the XPH. They provide a +10 to certain skills for a cost of 10,000gp each. I would say that the minimum price for your item is closer to 30,000 gp, but getting such a high bonus concentrated on one skill is huge. I would at least increase the price by +50%, making it closer to 45,000 gp. And that's probably being lenient. Second, even if you could auto-succeed on your UMD check, you still need items to use UMD on. Again, no sane DM will just have 9th level scrolls lying around. Such high levels casters are rare and finding them is an adventure in itself. Convincing them to craft you a scroll of possibly massive destructive power is another task entirely (especially if your potentially negligent use of their scroll can be traced back to them). Even if you had the gold, no sane caster will give you such a scroll simply for profit unless they were really strapped for cash (which, if given the appropriate amount of NPC wealth, they won't be). If these casters do give you the time of day, they will probably instead ask, as payment, for you to complete a task that either 1) they are not capable of doing themselves (ha!), 2) they don't feel like or have the time to do (most likely), or 3) because watching you fail would be amusing (also likely). If your character is willing to put out the gold and go through all the effort to procure a +30 to his UMD and a 9th level scroll, then let him have his one-shot. It will most likely be overkill (and potentially a waste of cash) for any level-appropriate challenge, and possibly ineffective against stuff 9th level spells normally target. k. I appreciate the info, but I already know that I have to use sense sometimes and not allow certain things as written. My question is: Is there a WRITTTEN RULE or errata about it somewhere, or is this just one of those DM judgement call things?
temparus2000 04-19-07, 10:35 PM	If the party uses all of their money to research a new magic item, pay a high-level wizard for a 9th level scroll (that is likely self-researched), and use it on the next random encounter, that's fine. Really, I've got more monsters. They had better be using that at the epic time to use it, when the moon is full, the planets in alignment, and the BBEG is completing the ritual. Otherwise, it's a "woo-hoo, wasted a minotaur! But it was cool, it was a good waste of money". But it WON'T be a waste of money if they blow away a recurring enemy NPC that I wanted to be around for a while. I doubt anyone would use such a thing in the next random encounter.
jaelis 04-19-07, 10:36 PM	k. I appreciate the info, but I already know that I have to use sense sometimes and not allow certain things as written. My question is: Is there a WRITTTEN RULE or errata about it somewhere, or is this just one of those DM judgement call things? Our point is that the WHOLE PROCESS is one of those DM judgment call things.
The_sleeper1 04-19-07, 10:39 PM	What you do with that spell is use a scroll of Gate. You gate in a Genie or something with 3 wishes and bargain for its service "if you give me three wishes, I'll use one of them for whatever you want" Since the outsider can't use wish for himself, this is an attractive offer he'll probably agree to. Then you win D&D. :eek: In my games I would guess that giveing a mortal wishes with no way to prevent the mortal from wishing the Genie was his servent or similar or the PC's just dont do what they say they would would make it a VERY riskey thing to do. If he wanted to get some wishes fulfilled could he not just go to his father or other Genie and they each give the other as many wishes as they wanted? In my game I would let the player summon a Genie and mabey even get away with the wishes, after the Genie disapears he or friends of his would soon pop right back in pick up the offending PC (and perhaps treasure) and then gate back to there realm for a life time of torture at haveing the gall to summon a creature that would consider itself way above a mortal.
temparus2000 04-19-07, 10:40 PM	Our point is that the WHOLE PROCESS is one of those DM judgment call things. that is very helpful.
Fireclave 04-19-07, 10:43 PM	k. I appreciate the info, but I already know that I have to use sense sometimes and not allow certain things as written. My question is: Is there a WRITTTEN RULE or errata about it somewhere, or is this just one of those DM judgement call things? Sorry if it sounded like I was beating a dead horse. When I started writing, there were no replies in this thread :rolleyes: But now I'm not sure what you still have issues with. About which "it" are you looking for rules/errata for?
BugHunter 04-19-07, 10:43 PM	this is true, I failed to see that the x100 only applied to competence bonuses. But why do you use the Save bonus (other)? I mean, why is that the default? When you look at the foot note for Save bonus other it states "Such as luck, insight, sacred or profane bonus." Of course the cost is assuming a player would use three magic item slots for different items. The cost could go up if the item is made with the No space limitation option. I'm not one of those rule lawyer types.
Chimaera2000 04-19-07, 10:56 PM	But more to the point, there are no WotC published items that boost UMD. Nitpick: the circlet of persuasion from the DMG does boost Use Magic Device, as it's a Charisma-based skill. My impression of Use Magic Device is that it's a very strong skill when used right, particularly with UMD-focused classes like warlocks and artificers. However, I find that the costs are prohibitive enough to prevent abuses for most groups. It is possible to find loopholes, particularly with summoning (as pointed out), but this is more of a fault of the magic system than Use Magic Device.
Willie the Duck 04-19-07, 11:00 PM	no, it wouldn't be a good financial move. But it can erase any single threatening creature. That alone is well worth the cost, even if that creature's treasure dosen't cover it The cost of the scroll? yes. The opportunity cost of having spent all your resources on these skill boosters when you very rarely want to use them? not so much. You are giving up virtually every other role a rogue or warlock character could have for an ability you use once, maybe twice in an adventure. Even then it is still just (I know, I said just) a ninth level spell...cast as an 17th level caster, penitrating SR as a 17 level caster without penitration feats, having a save DC of 23. And let's not forget that the party wizard can also cast this scroll, and by 8th level can do so with a 55% success rate (more if you use caster level boosting cheese). I would say the case for broken-ness has not been made. You called it broken, but then only showed that it could create a moderately superior effect -- with great expenditure of resources. And all that with some very carefully constructed situations. Despite there being no UMD boosting items in the DMG, we are to have to include not one, but three types of UMD skill boosting items in our brokenness calculations because the DMG (and apparently ELH you say, we all know how well applying that to pre epic play works) gives rules for new magic item creation? Also include the assumption that the PCs can pick up all these items at the minimum level where their "if starting above 1st level" expected gp total exceeds their cost? And they have access to a friendly scroll writting 17th+ level caster who knows the spell they want to use? I don't mean to sound sarcastic. Okay, scratch that, I do mean to sound sarcastic, I just don't want it to be interpretted as belittling. I think the reason you aren't hearing a loud chorus of people saying, "indeed, that is broken, let me help find a ruling to fix that." is that it is a rediculously contrived situation that smells of looking for trouble, not actual gameplay-discovered rules flaws. Most people here are more worried about Gate or Wall of Iron/Fabricate abuses, not amulets of True Strike, because no one ever tried to invent amulets of True Strike except when they were horsing around with the rulebooks
jaelis 04-19-07, 11:03 PM	Nitpick: the circlet of persuasion from the DMG does boost Use Magic Device, as it's a Charisma-based skill. :tiphat: As does the cloak of charisma, and various other Cha and Cha-skill boosters. But you know what I meant.
Grelin69 04-19-07, 11:07 PM	It's reasonable to say that you can only emulate a class up to your lvl, so a lvl 7 rogue can only emulate a lvl 7 wizard etc... and can thus only use scrolls up to lvl 4, a skill shouldn't allow you to use items better then the class that makes them.
BugHunter 04-20-07, 12:05 AM	It's reasonable to say that you can only emulate a class up to your lvl, so a lvl 7 rogue can only emulate a lvl 7 wizard etc... and can thus only use scrolls up to lvl 4, a skill shouldn't allow you to use items better then the class that makes them. For a rogue to use a scroll they would need to make up to four UMD rolls (decipher a written spell, followed by emulate a class feature, if needed an emulate an ability score, and then the use a scroll). The use a scroll roll for a 9th level spell would be a 37 and that is after making rolls of 34, 20, and 34. A level 7 wizard can use any scroll on their spell list up to the requisite ability score, so for that 9th level spell they need an intelligence of 19 and make a caster level check with a DC of 18.
Flan 04-20-07, 02:07 AM	Yes, the magic system is broken. Yes, +skill items are severly underpriced. Yes, +skill items have stupidly high caps on them that never should have happened. Yes, combining 3 broken aspects of the game causes problems. Get a sane GM.
Flan 04-20-07, 02:08 AM	Yes, the magic system is broken. Yes, +skill items are severly underpriced. Yes, +skill items have stupidly high caps on them that never should have happened. Yes, combining 3 broken aspects of the game causes problems. Get a sane GM.
Leilond 04-20-07, 04:08 AM	I don't think it is broken at all Why at all spending 72000 golds to have an item to use magic devices while there is probably someone else in the group that can use it for free? Why do not spend thos 72000 golds for other items (and there are TONS out there)? I think something is "broken" when everyone buy the item immediatly at the moment they reach the wealth needed. It doesn't happen, never. I never saw a character spending 50000 for a "use magic device item", except in game where there isn't a caster of one type (no arcane or no divine). In my opinion, this mean it isn't broken at all So there's nothing to house rule or to change (in my opinion)
Terjon of the Blue Rose 04-20-07, 04:26 AM	It seems to have been missed (skipped a couple of posts) but you also need to have a number of ranks in a skill equal to the bonus you are getting from the item as a prereq. That is to say you need someone with 15 ranks in umd to create and item with a 15 bonus. This can severely limit the availability of such items unless you have a lot of artificers in your world (ebberon). again outside of ebberon most characters can't use umd to create items (warlocks get added in to further muddle this defense).
ezreal2001 04-20-07, 04:27 AM	But it WON'T be a waste of money if they blow away a recurring enemy NPC that I wanted to be around for a while. I doubt anyone would use such a thing in the next random encounter. Dude - its DnD - even if the PCs do blow away your recurring villian you can still raise/reincarnate/resurect/active clone/cue the evil twin/invoke the old "congrads you've just killed his/her/its double" trick/ reveal the existance of the actual evil mastermind... And if you didn't want them to blow away how did they get close enough? Don't let the rules get in the way of a good game. Make a call. Be the DM.
Leress 04-20-07, 01:35 PM	But more to the point, there are no WotC published items that boost UMD. Actually there is one... Tool, Masterwork This well-made item is the perfect tool for the job. It grants a +2 circumstance bonus on a related skill check (if any). Bonuses provided by multiple masterwork items used toward the same skill check do not stack.
Tsuul 04-20-07, 01:47 PM	I've learned to put a limiter on "skill" increasing items long ago. Tool Masterwork: But what is the actual tool?
Cifer 04-20-07, 02:14 PM	This can severely limit the availability of such items unless you have a lot of artificers in your world (ebberon). again outside of ebberon most characters can't use umd to create items (warlocks get added in to further muddle this defense). Actually, such a thing would be quite rare in Eberron, since there are comparably few characters above third level there. Outside of Eberron, your best chance would probably be finding a wizard who likes casting cleric spells.
temparus2000 04-20-07, 06:43 PM	The cost of the scroll? yes. The opportunity cost of having spent all your resources on these skill boosters when you very rarely want to use them? not so much. You are giving up virtually every other role a rogue or warlock character could have for an ability you use once, maybe twice in an adventure. Even then it is still just (I know, I said just) a ninth level spell...cast as an 17th level caster, penitrating SR as a 17 level caster without penitration feats, having a save DC of 23. And let's not forget that the party wizard can also cast this scroll, and by 8th level can do so with a 55% success rate (more if you use caster level boosting cheese). I would say the case for broken-ness has not been made. You called it broken, but then only showed that it could create a moderately superior effect -- with great expenditure of resources. And all that with some very carefully constructed situations. Despite there being no UMD boosting items in the DMG, we are to have to include not one, but three types of UMD skill boosting items in our brokenness calculations because the DMG (and apparently ELH you say, we all know how well applying that to pre epic play works) gives rules for new magic item creation? Also include the assumption that the PCs can pick up all these items at the minimum level where their "if starting above 1st level" expected gp total exceeds their cost? And they have access to a friendly scroll writting 17th+ level caster who knows the spell they want to use? I don't mean to sound sarcastic. Okay, scratch that, I do mean to sound sarcastic, I just don't want it to be interpretted as belittling. I think the reason you aren't hearing a loud chorus of people saying, "indeed, that is broken, let me help find a ruling to fix that." is that it is a rediculously contrived situation that smells of looking for trouble, not actual gameplay-discovered rules flaws. Most people here are more worried about Gate or Wall of Iron/Fabricate abuses, not amulets of True Strike, because no one ever tried to invent amulets of True Strike except when they were horsing around with the rulebooks Yeah, you caught me. I spend all day looking for severly contrived circumstances in the rulebooks, then post them here as questions because it's such great fun. That explains why this is my ONLY thread EVER.............. OR....... maybe this has come up in a campaign I was about to start and though getting some advice here would be a good idea. I didn't know this forum was only for those who already had all the answers. My apologies.
Cifer 04-20-07, 07:05 PM	Well, the two most important answer already have been given: -The whole item creation cost is highly unstable and most definitely subject to DM supervision -Characters who do succesfully get this still can't get around the extreme prices involved with regularly scroll-casting high level spells
The_Jhereg 04-21-07, 12:29 AM	It's not like you'd use this sort of thing for Meteor Swarm anyways, right? I mean, if you are trying to break the game horribly, you start by casting this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarBindingGreater.htm) with a scroll and a scroll of Magic circle (or party wizard's assist) and slightly less powerful versions of the items mentioned there, to get one of these crazy dudes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/genie.htm#efreeti), and then bargain for two castings of one of the most broken spells ever (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm) in return for using the third to the benefit of the called dude itself. Note that SLA's have none of the component costs including xp of the normal spell, and that you can therefore get two arbitrarily powerful magic items (as a part of the listed allowed effects, the DM isn't allowed to muck about with it.) By "arbitrarily powerful", I mean... any cost, any abilities, etc. Conclusion: If your party seriously is suggesting using all of a rogue's equipment and the parties gold to cast lots of Meteor Swarms, you should thank them for not doing something truly broken after allowing them to have totally broken custom magic items.
Willie the Duck 04-22-07, 02:21 AM	Yeah, you caught me. I spend all day looking for severly contrived circumstances in the rulebooks, then post them here as questions because it's such great fun. That explains why this is my ONLY thread EVER.............. OR....... maybe this has come up in a campaign I was about to start and though getting some advice here would be a good idea. I didn't know this forum was only for those who already had all the answers. My apologies. You can make petty retorts until you are blue in the face. All I see from it (if I believe you) is that it is your PCs, instead of you, that have been dicking around with the rulebook. The main points I was trying to make were: 1) just because the "created above first level" wealth charts indicate a character should be able to afford a magic item does not mean the have ready access to it. 2) spending all your character resources on an ability that is an instant success, once or twice per adventure, and is effectively moot the rest of the time, is not broken, because of the amazing opportunity cost it intails. 3) The rulebooks generally give one type of skill boosting item for any given skill. They don't explicitly limit skill boosters to that type of bonus, but they only provide one. They provide rules for creating items of all sorts of bonuses, but make no gaurantee that stacking such items won't create rediculous situations. Oh and, 4) You post a thread, and get a couple dozen responses that boil down to 'try growing a pair and being a DM.' and I take the moral high ground and say, 'I'm not passing judgement on you, but you aren't getting the response you are looking for because it looks like you are bending over backwards to find a rules conflict, and people have been trained by forum trolls not to respect that.' and you attack me for respecting you enough to have done so. How pathetic is that?
Leress 04-22-07, 03:51 PM	Tool Masterwork: But what is the actual tool? What ever you want it to be, the entry doesn't specify.
Tsuul 04-23-07, 12:29 AM	Anything specific come to mind?
The_sleeper1 04-23-07, 07:48 AM	Your brain? I dont think it uses anything else. I dont think that tool would count for UMD.
DrMorganes 04-23-07, 08:24 AM	For a rogue to use a scroll they would need to make up to four UMD rolls (decipher a written spell, followed by emulate a class feature, if needed an emulate an ability score, and then the use a scroll). The use a scroll roll for a 9th level spell would be a 37 and that is after making rolls of 34, 20, and 34. A level 7 wizard can use any scroll on their spell list up to the requisite ability score, so for that 9th level spell they need an intelligence of 19 and make a caster level check with a DC of 18. Um... no. The description of Use Magic Device specifically calls out "Use Scroll" as one of the uses for the skill, vis: Use a Scroll If you are casting a spell from a scroll, you have to decipher it first. Normally, to cast a spell from a scroll, you must have the scroll’s spell on your class spell list. Use Magic Device allows you to use a scroll as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. The DC is equal to 20 + the caster level of the spell you are trying to cast from the scroll. In addition, casting a spell from a scroll requires a minimum score (10 + spell level) in the appropriate ability. If you don’t have a sufficient score in that ability, you must emulate the ability score with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above). This use of the skill also applies to other spell completion magic items. A rogue with a 14 INT (and all of mine have are at least that smart!) can cast up to a Level 4 spell from a scroll with only TWO UMD checks. One to decipher it, and one to actually cast it. He'd have to toss in a 3rd check to cast spells Level 5 and above to emulate the appropriate ability score. Nowhere does it say the decipher check has to be made immediately prior to casting the spell. I've always allowed rogues - like wizards - to decipher scrolls ahead of time. My UMD-focused rogues also have at least 5 ranks in Spellcraft and Decipher Script, for that +4 synergy bonus when using scrolls ;) Keep in mind as well that Complete Adventurer lists rules for cooperative skill checks - allowing the party's wizard to help the rogue with his check to decipher the scroll. Handy! In other news: Flan! Gods and Demons, it's been a while. Nice to have you back on the boards. :w00t:
DrMorganes 04-23-07, 08:29 AM	Tool Masterwork: But what is the actual tool? Agreed. He wasn't serious about that, was he? Any magic item creation by players - and even by DMs - really should be approached from the standpoint of "how will the presence of this item enhance the game for everyone" instead of "W00t! /\/\y chariktr iz moor ub3rl337 than urz!"
Clawhound 04-23-07, 12:20 PM	If you follow the magic item recommendations from the MIC, you will see that an 8,000 gp item is an appropriate treasure for a Level 12 encounter. (It may be level 11. I don't remember perfectly). Three such over-level items for a character is an issue and break the game. No surprise there. At level 8, they should be maxing out with 4,000 gp items.
CorbonDallasMultipass 04-23-07, 12:26 PM	this is true, I failed to see that the x100 only applied to competence bonuses. But why do you use the Save bonus (other)? I mean, why is that the default? competence is cheaper because feats and bardic music grant it, so you have a decent chance at having a bonus to it already.
Tsuul 04-23-07, 01:02 PM	Agreed. He wasn't serious about that, was he?I hope not. I wasn't.
Evil DM Mk3 04-23-07, 01:09 PM	Also remember UMD is NEVER a sure thing.
Argo 04-23-07, 02:24 PM	Also remember UMD is NEVER a sure thing. Well, it is sometimes. Level 11 Rogue: 20 Cha + 14 ranks in UMD = +19 bonus. Using wands of any level = Auto-success.
Thiez 04-23-07, 03:18 PM	level thingy Warlock (10, 12?). Take 10 on UMD checks. Autowin :)
Merestil Haye 04-23-07, 03:52 PM	Also remember UMD is NEVER a sure thing.There are no auto-fail rules for skills, not even Use Magic Device. If a roll of 1 means that you equal or beat the DC, then you succeed. If you follow the magic item recommendations from the MIC, you will see that an 8,000 gp item is an appropriate treasure for a Level 12 encounter. (It may be level 11. I don't remember perfectly). Three such over-level items for a character is an issue and break the game. No surprise there. At level 8, they should be maxing out with 4,000 gp items.The MIC tables are not the way the game is balanced. The items are supposed to give the character the wealth that the character has on the WBL table. An 8k item becomes an affordable purchase sometime just before a character reaches 9th level, going by the WBL table on p135 of the DMG; by 12th level it is less than 10% of wealth and should be regarded as a routine acquisition for such a character. In short, I don't recommend using the item levels or acquisition tables in the MIC at all.
Leress 04-23-07, 04:21 PM	Agreed. He wasn't serious about that, was he? Yes I was serious, it is little bit of SRD cheese.