Use Magic Device [Archive] - Wizards Community

Use Magic Device [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
GSonic7
08-24-07, 09:09 PM For my next character, I'm thinking about playing a Warforged Scout (a race, not actual class levels in Scout) Rogue. Intelligence will be my highest stat, followed by Dexterity and Charisma. Despite the -2 racial penalty to Charisma, I am planning on making him (it?) use Wands in combat and otherwise.

For my starting equipment, I may get a Wand of Magic Missile with 5 or so charges left so it is affordable, and hope to get more. In the beginning (at least), the natural slam attack will be a back-up.

Anyway, the DC to use a Wand is 20. The way I see it, I can get: +4 ranks, (hopefully) +1 Cha, +2 Magical Aptitude, +3 Skill Focus (flaw) = 10. Therefore, I have approximately a 50% of activating the wand at level 1. First, is there anyway to make this higher (another flaw may be necessary..)? Second, I remember seeing a Feat somewhere (though I may be wrong - I can't find it anywhere) that allows one to Take 10 on UMD checks. Obviously, this would be useful to me. Is my memory wrong?

Also, the flaw I would take is Noncombatant, and a second one would probably be Shaky (counter-intuitive when I want to use Touch spell-wands, yes, but my group is big on Flaws penalizing something that the PC utilizes).

EDIT: Does the 5% natural ASF apply to spells cast from wands/scrolls?
EDIT2: Warforged can heal themselves with a craft check in either Armorsmithing, Blacksmithing, Gemcutting, or Sculpting. Which is best for putting ranks into? I'm thinking Armorsmithing, because then I could make better plating for myself, though the EDIT applies to that.
Vegepygmy
08-25-07, 01:40 AM EDIT: Does the 5% natural ASF apply to spells cast from wands/scrolls?ASF applies to scrolls. It does not apply to wands.
EDIT2: Warforged can heal themselves with a craft check in either Armorsmithing, Blacksmithing, Gemcutting, or Sculpting. Which is best for putting ranks into? I'm thinking Armorsmithing, because then I could make better plating for myself, though the EDIT applies to that.You cannot use Craft (armorsmithing) to make "better plating" for yourself. You can magically enhance your plating with the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat, or you can take a Body feat, but that's about it.
Ranton
08-25-07, 02:31 AM You can get magical items that increase skill checks. It all depends on how prevelant magic is in your DM's world. If you can find a shop who employs someone (or have a party member) who has Craft Wondrous Item, then getting an extra +10 competence bonus to your UMD check would cost 10,000 gp and take 10 days. A +5 bonus item would just be 5k.

Also remember that the check to cast Magic Missile from a wand is not as simple as a DC 20 check. The DC 20 is just to allow you to use a wand as if you had a particular spell on your class list. The next step is to have a high enough caster level to emulate a class feature (spellcasting). That is a DC 20 + caster level (21) check. That is not much differnt for a first level spell, but it can get much higher for higher level spells.
liquoriceanimal
08-25-07, 02:39 AM Also remember that the check to cast Magic Missile from a wand is not as simple as a DC 20 check. The DC 20 is just to allow you to use a wand as if you had a particular spell on your class list. The next step is to have a high enough caster level to emulate a class feature (spellcasting). That is a DC 20 + caster level (21) check. That is not much differnt for a first level spell, but it can get much higher for higher level spells.

I don't think so. Think like, wand using wizard, does he need roll caster lvl checks when using wands? And emulating class feature is also DC 20.
jaelis
08-25-07, 03:08 AM Also remember that the check to cast Magic Missile from a wand is not as simple as a DC 20 check. The DC 20 is just to allow you to use a wand as if you had a particular spell on your class list. The next step is to have a high enough caster level to emulate a class feature (spellcasting). That is a DC 20 + caster level (21) check. That is not much differnt for a first level spell, but it can get much higher for higher level spells.

Yes, this is incorrect. There's no level requirement for use of wands.

Regarding the OP:
- Wouldn't a wand of one of the orb spells make more sense than magic missile? It does a bit more damage, and it lets you add your sneak attack damage when appropriate. It does require a touch attack, but if you're not going to be making attacks, why play rogue?

- There is no feat to let you take 10 on UMD checks. Artificers get it as a class ability at like level 12; maybe warlocks get it sometime too.

- The only other core way to boost your UMD check are items that increase your Cha. Nothing will be affordable at first level, but as things go on, look for a cloak of charisma and a circlet of persuasion.

- You should consider taking a level in wizard or sorcerer. That would let you use all the sorc/wiz wands without any checks at all. (Alternatively, a level in cleric with the magic domain would give you all the cleric wands too.)
Jaxgaret
08-25-07, 03:19 AM - You should consider taking a level in wizard or sorcerer. That would let you use all the sorc/wiz wands without any checks at all. (Alternatively, a level in cleric with the magic domain would give you all the cleric wands too.)

This is probably your best route, if it fits in the character build you were looking at. Using up every single last one of your feats to still have a decent chance of non-activation every round may not be the greatest idea.

I would recommend the Cleric level with the Magic domain idea.
liquoriceanimal
08-25-07, 06:19 AM - There is no feat to let you take 10 on UMD checks. Artificers get it as a class ability at like level 12; maybe warlocks get it sometime too.

I remember that there is some kind of feat called "magic item attunement" that lets you take 10 on UMD checks with one specific item. And, of course, you can take a lvl of Exemplar for skill mastery.
GSonic7
08-25-07, 10:42 AM Thanks for the replies.

As for taking a level in Wizard or Sorcerer, I was considering that, and then taking the following route:

An additional flaw for TWF at level 1.
Wizard/Sorcerer level at 3, Practiced Spellcaster.
Craft Wand at level 6 (CL will be 5).
Double Wand Wielder at level 9.
Afterwards, at some point, Reckless Wand Wielder and Wandstrike.

I think Wizard/Sorcerer would work better than Cleric for one reason: Repair spells. Clerics get Cure spells, but they only heal Warforged half the normal. If I were a Wizard/Sorcerer, then I could get Repair Minor and Light Damage, healing myself a full 1 or 1d8+5 (eventually). I suppose I will go Wizard, just because I'm planning on having a high Intelligence. That is, of course, if my group allows me. I always play (full or near full) arcane casters, and they want me to play a different character, to which I came up with this.

At jaelis: Good idea, I don't know why I didn't think of that. I don't have my books with me, and Magic Missile was just the first 1st level damaging spell to pop into my head.

Also, I read the rules on item creation, and have a question:

: Brew Potion, Craft Wand, and Scribe Scroll create items that directly reproduce spell effects, and the power of these items depends on their caster level—that is, a spell from such an item has the power it would have if cast by a spellcaster of that level. The price of these items (and thus the XP cost and the cost of the raw materials) also depends on the caster level. The caster level must be high enough that the spellcaster creating the item can cast the spell at that level. To find the final price in each case, multiply the caster level by the spell level, then multiply the result by a constant, as shown below:
Scrolls: Base price = spell level x caster level x 25 gp.
Potions: Base price = spell level x caster level x 50 gp.
Wands: Base price = spell level x caster level x 750 gp.
A 0-level spell is considered to have a spell level of 1/2 for the purpose of this calculation.

As per the bolded part, I need a caster level (which is 5) that is high enough to cast the level of the spell being placed in the item. It doesn't say anything about actually being able to cast the spell. Therefore, if I got a scroll of a 2nd or 3rd level spell, would I be able to create a higher level wand? I think I may be interpreting this incorrectly, but I want some clarification.
EvilVegan
08-25-07, 10:57 AM Nymph's Kiss gives +1 skill point per level and +2 to charisma based skill checks. May be hard to get as a warforged, but I'm sure there are some kinky fey out there.

The illiterate trait gives you +1 to a single skill but makes you illiterate. You can then spend 2 skill points to become literate.

IE: You can get +1 to UMD for 2 skill points if you need to be literate.

Illiteracy + Focus + Magical Aptitude + Nymph's Kiss = +8 before ranks/charisma.

Really, you need to play an artificer for your concept. They get free repair infusions and are from the same setting, and they make the best wand wielders hands down. Look up a blastificer build and you'll be surprised. Something like 96d6 damage by 9th level for 1 charge of a wand.

And yes, your only limit is caster level. Other people/scrolls can supply the spells.
Merestil Haye
08-25-07, 11:06 AM I remember that there is some kind of feat called "magic item attunement" that lets you take 10 on UMD checks with one specific item. And, of course, you can take a lvl of Exemplar for skill mastery.Skill mastery doesn't help with UMD, only with taking 10 if you were threatened or distracted. And the earliest you can get into Exemplar is 11th level.

Also, I read the rules on item creation, and have a question:

As per the bolded part, I need a caster level (which is 5) that is high enough to cast the level of the spell being placed in the item. It doesn't say anything about actually being able to cast the spell. Therefore, if I got a scroll of a 2nd or 3rd level spell, would I be able to create a higher level wand? I think I may be interpreting this incorrectly, but I want some clarification.You need a source of each spell prerequisite for each day the item takes to create.

You can substitute a scroll (or another wand) but you must use one scroll or one charge from the wand per day. The cost of this is over and above the cost of the supplies for crafting the item. Thus to craft (say) a wand of Bulls Strength using scrolls instead of your own spell power, you need to spend 2,250 (the regular amount for crafting the wand) plus the purchase of five scrolls of Bulls Strength (5*150=750gp) for a total of 3,000gp.
Meep326
08-25-07, 11:29 AM Really, you need to play an artificer for your concept. They get free repair infusions and are from the same setting, and they make the best wand wielders hands down. Look up a blastificer build and you'll be surprised. Something like 96d6 damage by 9th level for 1 charge of a wand.
Bad powergamer, bad.
EvilVegan
08-25-07, 12:10 PM Its the exact concept he's trying to pull off. It has nothing to do with power gaming.

He's wanting to play a skill monkey that uses wands and has some arcane abilities. He's wasting his time trying to hammer a rogue/wizard into the artificer mold.

I didnt' say he had to pull off 96d6 damage with a single charge and in fact I think it is a terrible idea, but it is easier and better to accomplish his goal.

If he wants to play a guy that can
1) make wands
2) reliably make UMD checks, especially taking 10 on the checks
3) disarm traps/open locks
4) get repair line of spells

Then he needs to play an artificer. I don't care how much damage he does, he's obviously gimping his character by using magic missile with a rogue vs an orb spell, so I'm sure he could just as easily gimp an artificer.

He also would do well to look at a warlock. They can also use/make wands rather well.
DracoPhoenix
08-25-07, 12:21 PM The feat shape soulmeld(Mage's Spectacles) (Magic of Incarnum) would provide a +4 insight bonus to UMD checks. (It also bolsters spellcraft & decipher script checks by +4)

But it also would require a Con of 11+.
EvilVegan
08-25-07, 12:42 PM oooh nice!
GSonic7
08-25-07, 04:25 PM At EvilVegan:

Note how I said that I am not playing a full caster or near-full caster (Artificer included in that). Also, we aren't in Eberron (sp?), nor do we have the books (we play in homebrew settings). Warforged Scout is in MM3, which is why I can play it.

And I realize the mistake with using a wand of Magic Missile - I believe I said that it was just the first spell that popped into my mind. Of course I will get wands of the Lesser Orb spells at first.

Anyway, any comments on the TWF/Craft Wand/Dual Wand Wielder idea?
Jaxgaret
08-26-07, 01:28 AM At EvilVegan:

Note how I said that I am not playing a full caster or near-full caster (Artificer included in that). Also, we aren't in Eberron (sp?), nor do we have the books (we play in homebrew settings). Warforged Scout is in MM3, which is why I can play it.

And I realize the mistake with using a wand of Magic Missile - I believe I said that it was just the first spell that popped into my mind. Of course I will get wands of the Lesser Orb spells at first.

Anyway, any comments on the TWF/Craft Wand/Dual Wand Wielder idea?

I am going to applaud your choice of character development, in several respects.

First, it seems as if you are one of the more optimization-minded folks in your group. I come to this conclusion only from two facts: that you seem quite familiar with the rules of the game and how to build a character, and that you usually play a spellcaster and that you are 'limiting yourself to non-spellcaster material' this time out.

As such, playing a 'non-optimized' character like this dual-wand wielder is a great idea. It's middle of the road, has its own quirks and benefits, and will not overshadow your party mates as you may have been previously doing.

The second reason is that it seems like a really fun character, and it has its own merits for power comparison, and is definitely not just a gimped choice.

I hope you have a great campaign. I will try and come up with some good paths for your character to take, maybe tomorrow. I've hit the sauce pretty good tonight, forgive me if I can't come with anything concrete currently :)

I will say that before the Artificer came out, the Rogue was the way to go with wand touch attacks as a primary focus.
EvilVegan
08-26-07, 09:26 AM At EvilVegan:

Note how I said that I am not playing a full caster or near-full caster (Artificer included in that). Also, we aren't in Eberron (sp?), nor do we have the books (we play in homebrew settings). Warforged Scout is in MM3, which is why I can play it.

And I realize the mistake with using a wand of Magic Missile - I believe I said that it was just the first spell that popped into my mind. Of course I will get wands of the Lesser Orb spells at first.

Anyway, any comments on the TWF/Craft Wand/Dual Wand Wielder idea?
I didn't notice that you said any of that, no.

Now that I look back over what you said I see a single sentence in a later post: "I always play (full or near full) arcane casters, and they want me to play a different character, to which I came up with this."

Artificers are no more arcane casters than a rogue/wizard with a crapload of wands, but I freely admit I skimmed over that sentence when advising you.

So you're looking to play a non-arcane caster that relies on wands and an arcane caster dip to emulate a full arcane blaster/crafter and you're playing an eberron race without any eberron books besides the MM3. Got it.

The only suggestion I have at this point is to try the Char Op boards (http://forums.gleemax.com/forumdisplay.php?f=339), where these discussions really belong. Also you may want to include things like "We don't have Eberron books" and "I don't want to play a caster" in your initial post. :D

Edit: I just want to say that I fully agree with what Ephraim is about to say, but didn't want to post a simple ditto below it.
Ephraim
08-26-07, 10:48 AM I suppose I will go Wizard, just because I'm planning on having a high Intelligence. That is, of course, if my group allows me. I always play (full or near full) arcane casters, and they want me to play a different character, to which I came up with this.

I appreciate your intentions in creating this character, but it feels like you're trying to remain as close to your preferred, arcane-casting class as possible, while still satisfying your group's desire that you should try something different. Is it really so important to you that your character be able to cast spells?

It is my humble opinion that you should try something wildly different from the norm. You have in mind a Warforged rogue. Run with that idea. Play the party's most skillful member and enjoy the occasional sneak attack. Intentionally forgo Use Magic Device to distance yourself as much as possible from arcane casters.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
GSonic7 08-24-07, 09:09 PM	For my next character, I'm thinking about playing a Warforged Scout (a race, not actual class levels in Scout) Rogue. Intelligence will be my highest stat, followed by Dexterity and Charisma. Despite the -2 racial penalty to Charisma, I am planning on making him (it?) use Wands in combat and otherwise. For my starting equipment, I may get a Wand of Magic Missile with 5 or so charges left so it is affordable, and hope to get more. In the beginning (at least), the natural slam attack will be a back-up. Anyway, the DC to use a Wand is 20. The way I see it, I can get: +4 ranks, (hopefully) +1 Cha, +2 Magical Aptitude, +3 Skill Focus (flaw) = 10. Therefore, I have approximately a 50% of activating the wand at level 1. First, is there anyway to make this higher (another flaw may be necessary..)? Second, I remember seeing a Feat somewhere (though I may be wrong - I can't find it anywhere) that allows one to Take 10 on UMD checks. Obviously, this would be useful to me. Is my memory wrong? Also, the flaw I would take is Noncombatant, and a second one would probably be Shaky (counter-intuitive when I want to use Touch spell-wands, yes, but my group is big on Flaws penalizing something that the PC utilizes). EDIT: Does the 5% natural ASF apply to spells cast from wands/scrolls? EDIT2: Warforged can heal themselves with a craft check in either Armorsmithing, Blacksmithing, Gemcutting, or Sculpting. Which is best for putting ranks into? I'm thinking Armorsmithing, because then I could make better plating for myself, though the EDIT applies to that.
Vegepygmy 08-25-07, 01:40 AM	EDIT: Does the 5% natural ASF apply to spells cast from wands/scrolls?ASF applies to scrolls. It does not apply to wands. EDIT2: Warforged can heal themselves with a craft check in either Armorsmithing, Blacksmithing, Gemcutting, or Sculpting. Which is best for putting ranks into? I'm thinking Armorsmithing, because then I could make better plating for myself, though the EDIT applies to that.You cannot use Craft (armorsmithing) to make "better plating" for yourself. You can magically enhance your plating with the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat, or you can take a Body feat, but that's about it.
Ranton 08-25-07, 02:31 AM	You can get magical items that increase skill checks. It all depends on how prevelant magic is in your DM's world. If you can find a shop who employs someone (or have a party member) who has Craft Wondrous Item, then getting an extra +10 competence bonus to your UMD check would cost 10,000 gp and take 10 days. A +5 bonus item would just be 5k. Also remember that the check to cast Magic Missile from a wand is not as simple as a DC 20 check. The DC 20 is just to allow you to use a wand as if you had a particular spell on your class list. The next step is to have a high enough caster level to emulate a class feature (spellcasting). That is a DC 20 + caster level (21) check. That is not much differnt for a first level spell, but it can get much higher for higher level spells.
liquoriceanimal 08-25-07, 02:39 AM	Also remember that the check to cast Magic Missile from a wand is not as simple as a DC 20 check. The DC 20 is just to allow you to use a wand as if you had a particular spell on your class list. The next step is to have a high enough caster level to emulate a class feature (spellcasting). That is a DC 20 + caster level (21) check. That is not much differnt for a first level spell, but it can get much higher for higher level spells. I don't think so. Think like, wand using wizard, does he need roll caster lvl checks when using wands? And emulating class feature is also DC 20.
jaelis 08-25-07, 03:08 AM	Also remember that the check to cast Magic Missile from a wand is not as simple as a DC 20 check. The DC 20 is just to allow you to use a wand as if you had a particular spell on your class list. The next step is to have a high enough caster level to emulate a class feature (spellcasting). That is a DC 20 + caster level (21) check. That is not much differnt for a first level spell, but it can get much higher for higher level spells. Yes, this is incorrect. There's no level requirement for use of wands. Regarding the OP: - Wouldn't a wand of one of the orb spells make more sense than magic missile? It does a bit more damage, and it lets you add your sneak attack damage when appropriate. It does require a touch attack, but if you're not going to be making attacks, why play rogue? - There is no feat to let you take 10 on UMD checks. Artificers get it as a class ability at like level 12; maybe warlocks get it sometime too. - The only other core way to boost your UMD check are items that increase your Cha. Nothing will be affordable at first level, but as things go on, look for a cloak of charisma and a circlet of persuasion. - You should consider taking a level in wizard or sorcerer. That would let you use all the sorc/wiz wands without any checks at all. (Alternatively, a level in cleric with the magic domain would give you all the cleric wands too.)
Jaxgaret 08-25-07, 03:19 AM	- You should consider taking a level in wizard or sorcerer. That would let you use all the sorc/wiz wands without any checks at all. (Alternatively, a level in cleric with the magic domain would give you all the cleric wands too.) This is probably your best route, if it fits in the character build you were looking at. Using up every single last one of your feats to still have a decent chance of non-activation every round may not be the greatest idea. I would recommend the Cleric level with the Magic domain idea.
liquoriceanimal 08-25-07, 06:19 AM	- There is no feat to let you take 10 on UMD checks. Artificers get it as a class ability at like level 12; maybe warlocks get it sometime too. I remember that there is some kind of feat called "magic item attunement" that lets you take 10 on UMD checks with one specific item. And, of course, you can take a lvl of Exemplar for skill mastery.
GSonic7 08-25-07, 10:42 AM	Thanks for the replies. As for taking a level in Wizard or Sorcerer, I was considering that, and then taking the following route: An additional flaw for TWF at level 1. Wizard/Sorcerer level at 3, Practiced Spellcaster. Craft Wand at level 6 (CL will be 5). Double Wand Wielder at level 9. Afterwards, at some point, Reckless Wand Wielder and Wandstrike. I think Wizard/Sorcerer would work better than Cleric for one reason: Repair spells. Clerics get Cure spells, but they only heal Warforged half the normal. If I were a Wizard/Sorcerer, then I could get Repair Minor and Light Damage, healing myself a full 1 or 1d8+5 (eventually). I suppose I will go Wizard, just because I'm planning on having a high Intelligence. That is, of course, if my group allows me. I always play (full or near full) arcane casters, and they want me to play a different character, to which I came up with this. At jaelis: Good idea, I don't know why I didn't think of that. I don't have my books with me, and Magic Missile was just the first 1st level damaging spell to pop into my head. Also, I read the rules on item creation, and have a question: : Brew Potion, Craft Wand, and Scribe Scroll create items that directly reproduce spell effects, and the power of these items depends on their caster level—that is, a spell from such an item has the power it would have if cast by a spellcaster of that level. The price of these items (and thus the XP cost and the cost of the raw materials) also depends on the caster level. The caster level must be high enough that the spellcaster creating the item can cast the spell at that level. To find the final price in each case, multiply the caster level by the spell level, then multiply the result by a constant, as shown below: Scrolls: Base price = spell level x caster level x 25 gp. Potions: Base price = spell level x caster level x 50 gp. Wands: Base price = spell level x caster level x 750 gp. A 0-level spell is considered to have a spell level of 1/2 for the purpose of this calculation. As per the bolded part, I need a caster level (which is 5) that is high enough to cast the level of the spell being placed in the item. It doesn't say anything about actually being able to cast the spell. Therefore, if I got a scroll of a 2nd or 3rd level spell, would I be able to create a higher level wand? I think I may be interpreting this incorrectly, but I want some clarification.
EvilVegan 08-25-07, 10:57 AM	Nymph's Kiss gives +1 skill point per level and +2 to charisma based skill checks. May be hard to get as a warforged, but I'm sure there are some kinky fey out there. The illiterate trait gives you +1 to a single skill but makes you illiterate. You can then spend 2 skill points to become literate. IE: You can get +1 to UMD for 2 skill points if you need to be literate. Illiteracy + Focus + Magical Aptitude + Nymph's Kiss = +8 before ranks/charisma. Really, you need to play an artificer for your concept. They get free repair infusions and are from the same setting, and they make the best wand wielders hands down. Look up a blastificer build and you'll be surprised. Something like 96d6 damage by 9th level for 1 charge of a wand. And yes, your only limit is caster level. Other people/scrolls can supply the spells.
Merestil Haye 08-25-07, 11:06 AM	I remember that there is some kind of feat called "magic item attunement" that lets you take 10 on UMD checks with one specific item. And, of course, you can take a lvl of Exemplar for skill mastery.Skill mastery doesn't help with UMD, only with taking 10 if you were threatened or distracted. And the earliest you can get into Exemplar is 11th level. Also, I read the rules on item creation, and have a question: As per the bolded part, I need a caster level (which is 5) that is high enough to cast the level of the spell being placed in the item. It doesn't say anything about actually being able to cast the spell. Therefore, if I got a scroll of a 2nd or 3rd level spell, would I be able to create a higher level wand? I think I may be interpreting this incorrectly, but I want some clarification.You need a source of each spell prerequisite for each day the item takes to create. You can substitute a scroll (or another wand) but you must use one scroll or one charge from the wand per day. The cost of this is over and above the cost of the supplies for crafting the item. Thus to craft (say) a wand of Bulls Strength using scrolls instead of your own spell power, you need to spend 2,250 (the regular amount for crafting the wand) plus the purchase of five scrolls of Bulls Strength (5*150=750gp) for a total of 3,000gp.
Meep326 08-25-07, 11:29 AM	Really, you need to play an artificer for your concept. They get free repair infusions and are from the same setting, and they make the best wand wielders hands down. Look up a blastificer build and you'll be surprised. Something like 96d6 damage by 9th level for 1 charge of a wand. Bad powergamer, bad.
EvilVegan 08-25-07, 12:10 PM	Its the exact concept he's trying to pull off. It has nothing to do with power gaming. He's wanting to play a skill monkey that uses wands and has some arcane abilities. He's wasting his time trying to hammer a rogue/wizard into the artificer mold. I didnt' say he had to pull off 96d6 damage with a single charge and in fact I think it is a terrible idea, but it is easier and better to accomplish his goal. If he wants to play a guy that can 1) make wands 2) reliably make UMD checks, especially taking 10 on the checks 3) disarm traps/open locks 4) get repair line of spells Then he needs to play an artificer. I don't care how much damage he does, he's obviously gimping his character by using magic missile with a rogue vs an orb spell, so I'm sure he could just as easily gimp an artificer. He also would do well to look at a warlock. They can also use/make wands rather well.
DracoPhoenix 08-25-07, 12:21 PM	The feat shape soulmeld(Mage's Spectacles) (Magic of Incarnum) would provide a +4 insight bonus to UMD checks. (It also bolsters spellcraft & decipher script checks by +4) But it also would require a Con of 11+.
EvilVegan 08-25-07, 12:42 PM	oooh nice!
GSonic7 08-25-07, 04:25 PM	At EvilVegan: Note how I said that I am not playing a full caster or near-full caster (Artificer included in that). Also, we aren't in Eberron (sp?), nor do we have the books (we play in homebrew settings). Warforged Scout is in MM3, which is why I can play it. And I realize the mistake with using a wand of Magic Missile - I believe I said that it was just the first spell that popped into my mind. Of course I will get wands of the Lesser Orb spells at first. Anyway, any comments on the TWF/Craft Wand/Dual Wand Wielder idea?
Jaxgaret 08-26-07, 01:28 AM	At EvilVegan: Note how I said that I am not playing a full caster or near-full caster (Artificer included in that). Also, we aren't in Eberron (sp?), nor do we have the books (we play in homebrew settings). Warforged Scout is in MM3, which is why I can play it. And I realize the mistake with using a wand of Magic Missile - I believe I said that it was just the first spell that popped into my mind. Of course I will get wands of the Lesser Orb spells at first. Anyway, any comments on the TWF/Craft Wand/Dual Wand Wielder idea? I am going to applaud your choice of character development, in several respects. First, it seems as if you are one of the more optimization-minded folks in your group. I come to this conclusion only from two facts: that you seem quite familiar with the rules of the game and how to build a character, and that you usually play a spellcaster and that you are 'limiting yourself to non-spellcaster material' this time out. As such, playing a 'non-optimized' character like this dual-wand wielder is a great idea. It's middle of the road, has its own quirks and benefits, and will not overshadow your party mates as you may have been previously doing. The second reason is that it seems like a really fun character, and it has its own merits for power comparison, and is definitely not just a gimped choice. I hope you have a great campaign. I will try and come up with some good paths for your character to take, maybe tomorrow. I've hit the sauce pretty good tonight, forgive me if I can't come with anything concrete currently :) I will say that before the Artificer came out, the Rogue was the way to go with wand touch attacks as a primary focus.
EvilVegan 08-26-07, 09:26 AM	At EvilVegan: Note how I said that I am not playing a full caster or near-full caster (Artificer included in that). Also, we aren't in Eberron (sp?), nor do we have the books (we play in homebrew settings). Warforged Scout is in MM3, which is why I can play it. And I realize the mistake with using a wand of Magic Missile - I believe I said that it was just the first spell that popped into my mind. Of course I will get wands of the Lesser Orb spells at first. Anyway, any comments on the TWF/Craft Wand/Dual Wand Wielder idea? I didn't notice that you said any of that, no. Now that I look back over what you said I see a single sentence in a later post: "I always play (full or near full) arcane casters, and they want me to play a different character, to which I came up with this." Artificers are no more arcane casters than a rogue/wizard with a crapload of wands, but I freely admit I skimmed over that sentence when advising you. So you're looking to play a non-arcane caster that relies on wands and an arcane caster dip to emulate a full arcane blaster/crafter and you're playing an eberron race without any eberron books besides the MM3. Got it. The only suggestion I have at this point is to try the Char Op boards (http://forums.gleemax.com/forumdisplay.php?f=339), where these discussions really belong. Also you may want to include things like "We don't have Eberron books" and "I don't want to play a caster" in your initial post. :D Edit: I just want to say that I fully agree with what Ephraim is about to say, but didn't want to post a simple ditto below it.
Ephraim 08-26-07, 10:48 AM	I suppose I will go Wizard, just because I'm planning on having a high Intelligence. That is, of course, if my group allows me. I always play (full or near full) arcane casters, and they want me to play a different character, to which I came up with this. I appreciate your intentions in creating this character, but it feels like you're trying to remain as close to your preferred, arcane-casting class as possible, while still satisfying your group's desire that you should try something different. Is it really so important to you that your character be able to cast spells? It is my humble opinion that you should try something wildly different from the norm. You have in mind a Warforged rogue. Run with that idea. Play the party's most skillful member and enjoy the occasional sneak attack. Intentionally forgo Use Magic Device to distance yourself as much as possible from arcane casters.