Post/Author/DateTime	Post
daedel 04-13-07, 08:42 AM	Hi! Is there any rule that prevents me from activate blindly a scroll (and use it)? If this is possible, would it generate any Opportunity Attack? daedel, el azote.
Nezkrul 04-13-07, 09:31 AM	yes, the rule is right in the Use Magic Device skill itself. Are you activating a scroll? YES! that means you use the rules for... activating..a ..scroll...YAH! wow that was hard.
Mystyc 04-13-07, 12:30 PM	yes, the rule is right in the Use Magic Device skill itself. Are you activating a scroll? YES! that means you use the rules for... activating..a ..scroll...YAH! wow that was hard. The UMD skill description also has a section for activating an item blindly, so I don't think this question is all that frivolous, and it certainly doesn't warrant that level of snark. In fact, the "activate blindy" section includes the following passage (emphasis mine): If you fail by 9 or less, you can’t activate the device. If you fail by 10 or more, you suffer a mishap. A mishap means that magical energy gets released but it doesn’t do what you wanted it to do. The default mishaps are that the item affects the wrong target or that uncontrolled magical energy is released, dealing 2d6 points of damage to you. This mishap is in addition to the chance for a mishap that you normally run when you cast a spell from a scroll that you could not otherwise cast yourself. So, yes, I would say you can activate a scroll blindly. Any variables that you failed to choose because you didn't know what you were doing (choosing a target, for instance) should probably just be done randomly.
Dheran 04-14-07, 12:24 PM	yes, the rule is right in the Use Magic Device skill itself. Are you activating a scroll? YES! that means you use the rules for... activating..a ..scroll...YAH! wow that was hard. Must be too hard for you, Nezkrul, because you gave the wrong answer. Here are the normal rules for activating a scroll: Scolls Activation To activate a scroll, a spellcaster must read the spell written on it. Doing so involves several steps and conditions. Decipher the Writing The writing on a scroll must be deciphered before a character can use it or know exactly what spell it contains. This requires a read magic spell or a successful Spellcraft check (DC 20 + spell level). ... And here are the steps required to use Use Magic Device in the same fashion: Decipher a Written Spell: DC = 25 + spell level This usage works just like deciphering a written spell with the Spellcraft skill, except that the DC is 5 points higher. Deciphering a written spell requires 1 minute of concentration. Emulate an Ability Score: minimum DC = 25 + spell level To cast a spell from a scroll, you need a high score in the appropriate ability (Intelligence for wizard spells, Wisdom for divine spells, or Charisma for sorcerer or bard spells). Your effective ability score (appropriate to the class you’re emulating when you try to cast the spell from the scroll) is your Use Magic Device check result minus 15. If you already have a high enough score in the appropriate ability, you don’t need to make this check. Use a Scroll: DC = 20 + caster level If you are casting a spell from a scroll, you have to decipher it first. Normally, to cast a spell from a scroll, you must have the scroll’s spell on your class spell list. Use Magic Device allows you to use a scroll as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. The DC is equal to 20 + the caster level of the spell you are trying to cast from the scroll. In addition, casting a spell from a scroll requires a minimum score (10 + spell level) in the appropriate ability. If you don’t have a sufficient score in that ability, you must emulate the ability score with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above). So, as you can see, activating a scroll with UMD's Use a Scroll procedure is a 2- or 3-step process requiring a separate check for each step, with DCs above 25. This also takes time. Alternatively, you can just use Activate Blindly with a single quick DC 25 check, exactly as daedel asked and Mystyc answered. You can use Activate Blindly; you are not limited to just the rules for Use a Scroll.
Dheran 04-14-07, 12:34 PM	Is there any rule that prevents me from activate blindly a scroll (and use it)? There's no problem with the rules. If you make the DC 25 Activate Blindly check there is no mishap, so you'll be able to choose a target properly. If this is possible, would it generate any Opportunity Attack? Maybe not. Normal scroll use involves reading the scroll, which provokes Attacks of Opportunity. Activate Blindly doesn't require you to decipher the text on the scroll and read it in the usual manner; a quick glance at the writing is enough, and you don't let your guard down as much as normal. There's no standard answer for this question in the rules, though, so you'll have to ask your DM.
Mystyc 04-14-07, 12:37 PM	There's no problem with the rules. If you make the DC 25 Activate Blindly check there is no mishap, so you'll be able to choose a target properly. Er, really? If you're really activating it blind, then how do you even know there's a target to choose, or if it's supposed to be a location, creature, or multiple creatures? I mean, there should be a reason it's not practical to activate scrolls blindly even when you know what they are (just to bypass the extra checks), regardless of how high your modifier gets.
Dheran 04-14-07, 09:32 PM	Er, really? If you're really activating it blind, then how do you even know there's a target to choose, or if it's supposed to be a location, creature, or multiple creatures? You know because you made a successful Activate Blindly check. That means you've been skillful enough to make it work the way it's supposed to despite being clueless before your check. We're talking legendary fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants skill here. I mean, there should be a reason it's not practical to activate scrolls blindly even when you know what they are (just to bypass the extra checks), regardless of how high your modifier gets. You want a reason? How about three: If you don't make your check, bad things happen. You can't take 10 on this roll, so it's hard to make DC 25; you need a UMD modifier of +24 to ensure success. If you know what the scroll is, it's easier to activate it with Use a Scroll. Also remember that UMD is a cross-class skill for most characters, meaning hardly anybody gets a +24 modifier before Epic levels.
Mystyc 04-15-07, 12:01 AM	You want a reason? How about three: If you don't make your check, bad things happen. You can't take 10 on this roll, so it's hard to make DC 25; you need a UMD modifier of +24 to ensure success. If you know what the scroll is, it's easier to activate it with Use a Scroll. Also remember that UMD is a cross-class skill for most characters, meaning hardly anybody gets a +24 modifier before Epic levels. Bad things only happen if you fail by 10 or more, so once you have a modifier of +15, that's off the table. Warlocks, rogues, and artificers, the three classes that make up the vast majority of UMD checks, most definitely can take 10. It's only easier to use the "Use a Scroll" method if the spell's caster level is less than 5 and you don't have to emulate an ability score. That's a very narrow selection. It doesn't matter who it's cross-class for. You don't balance things based on how well the average guy does something. You do it based on how well a person built to do it does it, and you vastly underestimate how high skill checks can get. At level 10, 13 ranks + 4 CHA modifier + 5 competence item + 2 synergy = +24 modifier. Badabing.
SALDAR 04-15-07, 12:37 AM	Warlocks, rogues, and artificers, the three classes that make up the vast majority of UMD checks, most definitely can take 10. Actually, rogues cannot take 10 with UMD.
Dheran 04-15-07, 12:54 AM	Bad things only happen if you fail by 10 or more, so once you have a modifier of +15, that's off the table. Failure (wasting a standard action) counts as quite bad, in my book. Warlocks, rogues, and artificers, the three classes that make up the vast majority of UMD checks, most definitely can take 10. Sorry, you're wrong there. Warlocks can take 10 after they hit level 4 through their Deceive Item class ability. That's not the case for other classes.Use Magic Device (Cha; Trained Only) Special You cannot take 10 with this skill. Can a rogue with skill mastery take 10 on a Use Magic Device check? No. The rogue’s skill mastery class feature states that “she may take 10 even if stress and distractions would normally prevent her from doing so.” This only applies to skills that allow a character to take 10 in nonstressful situations; if a skill simply doesn’t allow a character to take 10 under any circumstances (such as Use Magic Device), skill mastery provides no benefit. It's only easier to use the "Use a Scroll" method if the spell's caster level is less than 5 and you don't have to emulate an ability score. That's a very narrow selection.You're missing the big picture here, Mystyc. You asked about reasons why "it's not practical to activate scrolls blindly", and I tried to answer that question. The better question is: Why, with a more difficult check, would you prefer Use a Scroll to Activate Blindly? The big benefit of Use a Scroll at higher spell levels is that you can emulate an ability score. This option isn't available with Activate Blindly; the DC for saving throws is set by the minimum ability score required for the scroll. With Emulate an Ability Score the DC is set by your Use Magic Device check. This can make a huge difference in combat. Instead of DC = 10 + 1½ x spell level, the save DC = 10 + spell level + emulated ability bonus. If you can make your Use a Scroll check on a natural 1, you're going to do better than the minimum DC 90% of the time; in fact, you'll average 5 higher on the DC to save against the spells you cast via Use a Scroll. And with higher UMD checks your spells from scrolls just get harder to save against.
Mystyc 04-15-07, 01:45 AM	Failure (wasting a standard action) counts as quite bad, in my book. You lose the action if you fail regardless of what method you used, so I guess I don't see what the point you are making here is. It is still easier to "blindly" activate a scroll than to activate it normally. Sorry, you're wrong there. Warlocks can take 10 after they hit level 4 through their Deceive Item class ability. That's not the case for other classes. It is the case for artificers at level 13, although I admit I was wrong about rogues (that'll teach me to skip the fine print). Still, I showed that a +24 modifier is not hard to achieve, at which point you no longer need to take anything. The big benefit of Use a Scroll at higher spell levels is that you can emulate an ability score. This option isn't available with Activate Blindly; the DC for saving throws is set by the minimum ability score required for the scroll. With Emulate an Ability Score the DC is set by your Use Magic Device check. This can make a huge difference in combat. Instead of DC = 10 + 1½ x spell level, the save DC = 10 + spell level + emulated ability bonus. If you can make your Use a Scroll check on a natural 1, you're going to do better than the minimum DC 90% of the time; in fact, you'll average 5 higher on the DC to save against the spells you cast via Use a Scroll. And with higher UMD checks your spells from scrolls just get harder to save against. I think you're confusing scrolls with staffs. Staffs have rules explicitly letting you substitute your own ability scores and caster level for that of the crafter, but scrolls have no such rules.
Dheran 04-15-07, 03:00 AM	I think you're confusing scrolls with staffs. Staffs have rules explicitly letting you substitute your own ability scores and caster level for that of the crafter, but scrolls have no such rules. It's not just the standard scroll activation rules that you need to look at, but also the Use Magic Device rules that let you substitute your emulated ability score instead of the scroll's minimum. Here's what happens when you activate a scroll normally:Determine Effect A spell successfully activated from a scroll works exactly like a spell prepared and cast the normal way. Assume the scroll spell’s caster level is always the minimum level required to cast the spell for the character who scribed the scroll (usually twice the spell’s level, minus 1), unless the caster specifically desires otherwise. The scroll's spell level is fixed by the class. You can't change that. The scroll's caster level for effect is determined by the creator; you can't change that, either. But you'll note that they just refer to "the normal way" for other particulars. And here's how "the normal way" determines the spell's DC:Saving Throw Difficulty Class A saving throw against your spell has a DC of 10 + the level of the spell + your bonus for the relevant ability (Intelligence for a wizard, Charisma for a sorcerer or bard, or Wisdom for a cleric, druid, paladin, or ranger) And, as previously posted, Use Magic Device's Emulate an Ability Score lets you determine the relevant ability. This lets you get a higher DC than the minimum necessary to scribe the scroll. Trying for a higher DC is optional, of course; you can just go ahead and Activate Blindly if that satisfies you. But UMD affords greater DCs for spells from scrolls if you can make higher checks.
Mystyc 04-15-07, 11:45 AM	Staffs use the wielder’s ability score and relevant feats to set the DC for saves against their spells. Unlike with other sorts of magic items, the wielder can use his caster level when activating the power of a staff if it’s higher than the caster level of the staff. Show me where text similar to this exists in the scroll section. Otherwise, you are making far-reaching, unfounded, and extremely selective assumptions based on the words "the normal way." Does a sorcerer who uses a scroll expend a spell slot? That is part of "the normal way" of him casting spells, and nothing in the Scroll rules contradicts that, either. You emulate an ability score to see if you can activate a scroll at all, not to increase its power.
Nom 04-15-07, 11:27 PM	The better question is: Why, with a more difficult check, would you prefer Use a Scroll to Activate Blindly?Because "activate blindly" only bypasses the "knows how to trigger it" condition. "You can activate such an item as if you were using the activation word, thought, or action, even when you’re not and even if you don’t know it." (emphasis mine). So, "activate blindly" on a scroll removes the need to actually read it properly (and thus to decipher it). You still need the spell on your class list (DC 20 + caster level) and you still need the correct ability score (DC 15 + spell level).
Merestil Haye 04-16-07, 09:47 AM	Dheran. The rules for scrolls speciy that the saving throw is always 10 plus the level of the spell plus the modifier for the minimum ability necessary to cast the spell. There are no exemptions to this rule. (Or, to be accurate, there are no relevant exemptions to this rule). The reason for the Emulate an Ability check is that the rules require the user to have the minimum necessary ability to have cast the spell. A rogue wishing to activate a Miracle scroll blindly must have a Wisdom of 19, or must emulate it with a UMD check. If that Miracle emulates a spell which requires a save, the save DC is 23. It doesn't matter what your UMD result was. You could have emulated a 1,000 wisdom. You could be Pun-Pun for all the rules care. The save DC of a scroll is fixed by the rules. The only affect the user's spellcasting abiliity has in determining whether the user has a sufficiently high ability to activate the scroll at all.
Dheran 04-17-07, 10:13 AM	The rules for scrolls speciy that the saving throw is always 10 plus the level of the spell plus the modifier for the minimum ability necessary to cast the spell. There are no exemptions to this rule. (Or, to be accurate, there are no relevant exemptions to this rule). The issue at hand is whether Use Magic Device overrides the standard rules for use of magic items. Obviously I believe that's the case. There's been little official writing on UMD, but I've found some smatterings that indicate I'm not alone in my belief. The normal rules for wands requires identifying the spell contained before the wand can be activated.Spell Trigger Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it’s even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken. Anyone with a spell on his or her spell list knows how to use a spell trigger item that stores that spell. (This is the case even for a character who can’t actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin.) The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it. There are a variety of techniques to determine what spell is stored in the wand, including Spellcraft, Identify, Analyze Dweomer, and Appraise with the Appraise Magic Item feat. Yet with Activate Blindly not only do you not need to know what spell was contained in the wand beforehand, you apparently override this identification requirement for later use, as well. The Use Magic Device skill is for using magic items that you normally could not otherwise activate. Activating a wand has a DC of 20, as shown on the table in the Use Magic Device skill description. However, this assumes that you already know what spell the wand stores. If you don’t, you have to activate the wand blindly (DC 25). If you successfully activate a wand blindly, you know what spell it contains, and your subsequent attempts to activate that particular wand are at DC 20. So a Rogue, with no knowledge of spellcasting and no Spellcraft skill, can with total accuracy identify a spell never before seen from a single Activate Blindly use. This clearly shows that the Use Magic Device skill overrides the standard rules for magic items rather than just substituting separate UMD checks for each of those requirements (as Nom would have us believe). The reason for the Emulate an Ability check is that the rules require the user to have the minimum necessary ability to have cast the spell. ... It doesn't matter what your UMD result was. The Use Magic Device rules specify that the Emulate an Ability check establishes your ability for the particular use, not that you've merely satisfied the minimum requirement. It would have been very simple to state that the emulated ability is only to be used to establish minimum activation requirements in the skill description. I think it's telling that no such statement is made.
Merestil Haye 04-17-07, 10:28 AM	The issue at hand is whether Use Magic Device overrides the standard rules for use of magic items. Obviously I believe that's the case. There's been little official writing on UMD, but I've found some smatterings that indicate I'm not alone in my belief.I have no difficulty with accepting that Activate Blindly is a different use of the skill, with different rules applying. I take issue with your claim that UMD allows you to substitute your ability score when determining the saving throw of a spell from a scroll. It does not. The rule is absolute. The saving throw against a spell effect from a magic item is 10 + 1½ * spell level, with one exception, and that exception is a staff. (And as the staff is spell trigger and not spell completion, you do not need a minimum ability to activate the staff. Consequently you do not get to make a UMD check to generate an ability score emulation to use with the staff.) The Use Magic Device rules specify that the Emulate an Ability check establishes your ability for the particular use, not that you've merely satisfied the minimum requirement. It would have been very simple to state that the emulated ability is only to be used to establish minimum activation requirements in the skill description. I think it's telling that no such statement is made.It's utterly and completely irrelevant. UMD lets you activate the scroll, wand or whatever device. If you need a minimum score to activate the device, and do not have it, then you get a UMD check to see if you can emulate that ability score or higher. The test is yes-or-no, and does not in the slightest care what your final result is.
Dheran 04-17-07, 07:36 PM	I have no difficulty with accepting that Activate Blindly is a different use of the skill, with different rules applying. I take issue with your claim that UMD allows you to substitute your ability score when determining the saving throw of a spell from a scroll. It does not. The rule is absolute. The rules for activating all spell trigger and command word devices are absolute as well. And yet Use Magic Device substitutes its own set of rules, with different requirements and different consequences. There are spell completion mishap consequences in the ordinary rules, but not so for spell trigger or command word items. Yet UMD has mishap consequences for trying to activate those items, too. The results for failure are different. Why should the results for success not be different also? We agree that UMD overrides the normal magic item activation rules. We simply disagree on the extent of that override.