Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Perseus_Stoned 04-29-07, 02:21 PM	Are there any skills that seem useless, or at least considerably less useful, than other skills? I'm not talking about "we only need one party member with diplomacy, one party member with decipher script, etc.", so much as a skill that no one in your party seems to get. For instance I've been thinking about jump and swim- while jump has some point during combat, if you're basing your character off of a feat or the like which jump synergizes well with, neither really has too much of a point out of combat. Sure you can jump or swim someplace, but your party can't really follow. Does anyone else have things like that they'd like to share (or correct)?
Kamin_Majere 04-29-07, 02:30 PM	Use Rope is pretty much up there in my book of uselessness. Its right up there with bards... but i just really dislike bards for come reason
Leress 04-29-07, 02:36 PM	Forgery
calprinicus 04-29-07, 03:04 PM	profession any
RikuKupo 04-29-07, 04:51 PM	heal. Everything it does can be done by Efrum the mentally handicaped lvl 1 Cleric.
JulesCARV 04-29-07, 04:58 PM	heal. Everything it does can be done by Efrum the mentally handicaped lvl 1 Cleric. How can a level 1 cleric treat diseases or poisons, aside from using the heal skill?
Sotha_syl 04-29-07, 04:59 PM	Autohypnosis is really terrible, hell, I just don't like psionics or anything about them. Other than that, those skills aren't useless. Use Rope?? Have you ever been in a dungeon, or are you just a fool? Profession isn't completely useless if you choose something interesting. It's more of a 'what did my character do before he was a rapscallion adventurer' kind of thing. Jump and swim are great. So many feats and things require ranks in jump, and if you want to be able to avoid, say, a massive pit or do a lot of really awesome acrobatics, jump is nice. Swim is incredibly useful, for, oh, I don't know... anything that has to do with water. Again, have you ever been in a dungeon? Or done an underwater adventure? Or just accidentally fallen into/gotten thrown into a body of water? I've seen several examples of where swim saved a character's life, and a few in which a character died or nearly died due to a poor swim check in the wrong situation. Though, a character I made once had a -39 on swim.... (Full Plate + Tower Shield + Heavy Load) :D To tell the truth I don't think many skills are useless. Some don't get used as much in certain games due to playing styles and DMing styles and things, but every skill has its place. Though, sadly, I myself have never had to make a decipher script check. But I DM mostly. And... lastly, forgery rocks for bards, rogues, or anyone clever enough to need a document of some sort, or just to make a good bit of gold. I've seen some amazingly profitable uses of forgery in my time.
Pandaemoni 04-29-07, 05:16 PM	profession any I agree. Good for flavor (and popular for that reason), but the money you might earn practicing the profession if too low for it to ever be attractive mechanically. I disagree with "Use Rope." We play a lot of good characters and find ourselves with prisoners quite often. Someone needs to tie them up. "Forgery" you need to be clever. Giving yourself a forged set of "King's Orders" or "Letters Patent" can get you out of trouble with the town guard though, if they are convincing. Autohypnosis can be good. I've played in games where people needed to memorize details of maps or manuscripts for later reference when we weren't allowed to take copies.
krichaiushii 04-29-07, 05:22 PM	Skills are as useful or useless as your DM makes them - after all, its his adventures that provide opportunities to use them; in addition, a player who has his PC take skills should look for ways to use that skill. That said, some of the skills are rather narrow in focus, or are better used as NPC skills. Still, no skills are 100% useless.
Runepriest 04-29-07, 05:24 PM	I say Proffesion is mainly unused by PC's but it's what makes up the majority of the NPC economy.
Kamin_Majere 04-29-07, 05:32 PM	Autohypnosis is really terrible, hell, I just don't like psionics or anything about them. Other than that, those skills aren't useless. Use Rope?? Have you ever been in a dungeon, or are you just a fool? Autohypnosis is an amazing skill and i wish all my characters had access to it. It does so many things that are useful (espically stabilizing yourself) And a fool? a bit harsh for my dislike of the use rope skill wouldnt you think. But please give me an example where use rope is useful. I've never really come across one. Most of the uses in the PHB i can do with a 50% sucess with just a good dex. And what i cant is generally easily taken care of with something else I disagree with "Use Rope." We play a lot of good characters and find ourselves with prisoners quite often. Someone needs to tie them up. That i can see, but even though i tend toward neutral characters i usually have 2 or 3 sets of manacles (usually 1 set until i can get a bag of holding). If i have to "keep" more people than that... well i'm a bit screwed i guess
itwasntme 04-29-07, 05:33 PM	A dwarf fighter's thief skills - Open Door: Boot. Pick Lock: Bash. Pick Pocket: Mug. Climb Walls: Rope. Hide in Shadows: No. Move Silently: As If. Find/Remove Traps: Ouch. i can keep going if you want
itwasntme 04-29-07, 05:35 PM	Autohypnosis is an amazing skill and i wish all my characters had access to it. It does so many things that are useful (espically stabilizing yourself) And a fool? a bit harsh for my dislike of the use rope skill wouldnt you think. But please give me an example where use rope is useful. I've never really come across one. Most of the uses in the PHB i can do with a 50% sucess with just a good dex. And what i cant is generally easily taken care of with something else That i can see, but even though i tend toward neutral characters i usually have 2 or 3 sets of manacles (usually 1 set until i can get a bag of holding). If i have to "keep" more people than that... well i'm a bit screwed i guess my players rather use mantcles then use rope to tie someone up thanks
Runepriest 04-29-07, 05:37 PM	Rope is much cheaper.
ridiculous 04-29-07, 05:52 PM	It is lighter too... and has more uses
Runepriest 04-29-07, 06:14 PM	Like when you need to get to the top of a building with unclimbable walls. If no one has Use Rope you can't tie a grapple to rope well. Plus you can make it with Minor creation.
Grave_Accomplice 04-29-07, 08:03 PM	Or if you want to make a thive's repel, a quick rope ladder, a makeshift harness to lower injured/dead party members, or many other uses.
leif008 04-29-07, 08:36 PM	Forgery Forgery can be useless in a game where the DM won't let you benef from it. But otherwise if you're playing a rogue character in a city environment you could: -forge a will so you get a free house, business, shop, cash, etc -take out a huge loan from a bank and forge a receipt that you paid it back Don't forget, forgery is opposed by the victim's forgery check. I've never ever rolled profession, so I find that skill pretty useless.
Aryxbez 04-29-07, 09:22 PM	I think Profession/Craft skills are good, since you make gold when you do it. Since PCs have to find something to do in their downtime Training, or waiting for their magical items to be made. A useless skill I think is Decipher Script, since I believe there is a spell that does this.Also Spellcraft seems to be a skill that gets little to no use. If it weren't for martial adepts, I would say the same for concentration.
Optimator 04-29-07, 11:15 PM	Spellcraft and Concentration get little use?! :twitch:
TyWebb 04-29-07, 11:52 PM	Also Spellcraft seems to be a skill that gets little to no use. If it weren't for martial adepts, I would say the same for concentration. Wow. I don't think I've ever seen a primary spellcaster in our group that didn't have (and make frequent use of) both of those. With skills like Profession, like others have said, it comes down to what opportunities the players and DM make to use it. I'm playing in a campaign now where a lot of the travel is done by sea, so I get *lots* of mileage out of Profession (Sailor), although I don't think I've ever made a single copper piece from it.
Optimator 04-29-07, 11:59 PM	"Wow" is right.
pmurray@bigpond.com 04-30-07, 01:26 AM	Spellcraft seems to be a skill that gets little to no use. If it weren't for martial adepts, I would say the same for concentration. So, you have never played an arcanist :) . Spellcraft is key for scribing spells into the spellbook, and for counterspelling. Concentration is a lifesaver for casting defensively.
calprinicus 04-30-07, 01:40 AM	A dwarf fighter's thief skills - Open Door: Boot. Pick Lock: Bash. Pick Pocket: Mug. Climb Walls: Rope. Hide in Shadows: No. Move Silently: As If. Find/Remove Traps: Ouch. i can keep going if you want Freak'n halarious. I completely agree
Gold Halberdier 04-30-07, 02:26 AM	You have obviously never had a character die from a botched swim check. Neither have I, but I have witnessed the fighter shedding almost all his metal equipment in order to not die... and it took many game sessions before we were able to mount a salvage operation.
Flan 04-30-07, 02:32 AM	At low levels your d20 roll matters more than your skill ranks. At high levels magic and magic items make all skills obsolete and pointless with the exception of Use Magic Device.
Lixith 04-30-07, 04:21 AM	diplomacy..... Do people actually use that? I mean, if someone in my game said..."i'm making a diplomacy check" and reaches for the dice... i'd tell him to hold on... "You tell me what you say to the guy, and i'll let you know how 'diplomatic' it was..." You gotta get your role playing somewhere, and who wants to bring swords to EVERY game?
CaoSlayer 04-30-07, 04:35 AM	diplomacy..... Do people actually use that? I mean, if someone in my game said..."i'm making a diplomacy check" and reaches for the dice... i'd tell him to hold on... "You tell me what you say to the guy, and i'll let you know how 'diplomatic' it was..." You gotta get your role playing somewhere, and who wants to bring swords to EVERY game? The fallacy of that is that you are using the player`s diplomacy and not the character`s diplomacy... So a fair bard elf with 20 charisma and full ranks in diplomacy will be a way worse diplomat than an 3 charisma barbarian half-orc if the player of the half-orc is more charismatic in the real life and the elf player is a moron. You are right that the player should roleplay the sentence but the character`s diplomacy and charisma will make it sound diferent. A level 20 bard with 30 charisma should be able to say to a king "you are an ******* full of ****" and still get a positive reaction from the king (in this case, he will take the last sentence like an advice about he is doing something wrong and that he deserves it).
Grimmsfeld 04-30-07, 05:57 AM	And no one has said appraise yet? Granted, a shady merchant could dupe you...
SunTzuWarmaster 04-30-07, 06:39 AM	In game, I have used: Use Rope - can be used to do more than tie people up, rope bridges are a good, burnable instance. Profession (Sailing) - comes in handy if boats ever come up Profession (Gambler) - always a good decision Things that have never come up (and I have never or have stopped putting ranks in them): Decipher Script - typically, Speak Language is a better call. I currently play a character that speaks most languages (spellcaster in a low-magic campaign pretends to be a translator). If you can speak and write 1 language for every point that goes to Decipher Script, your DM should consider how archaic the language is. Forgery - This is so subject to a DM stealth-nerf that I have never bothered. Typically, I just lie and use the infinitely-more-useful bluff check. If they demand proof of my lie, simply make another bluff check. Also, I find that if I am writing a letter to someone, it is likely to contain a disabling condition on it instead of a Forgery (Exploding Runes is a good call).
CaoSlayer 04-30-07, 07:21 AM	And no one has said appraise yet? Granted, a shady merchant could dupe you... Appraise is a must-have skill in a campaign since your characters unlike you dont have access to the dungeon master guide and dont have idea of how much is worth an item, specially magical ones.
Rhuxley 04-30-07, 08:11 AM	I'm surprised heal was only mentioned once. All its functions are slowly replaced by spells. Stabilize - Cure Spells(Since you get more as you level, heal becomes less & less useful for this) Disease/Poison - From the get go, you can use anti-venom. Later there is delay poison, then remove disease, then negate poison. Tell how someone died - Speak with dead does it just fine. (while this one remains pretty useful as you level, due to having to wait a day for someone to prepair the spell, yet heal is usefull immediately, its scope is so limited its hardly useful. Add in that anyone with a good wisdom can benefit from a potion/spell of owls wisdom and take 20 and get it right most of the time.) Heal scales backwards(in that it becomes less & less suefull as you level up.) Anything that gets less usefull as you level is worthless.
Grave_Accomplice 04-30-07, 08:17 AM	I'm surprised heal was only mentioned once. All its functions are slowly replaced by spells. Stabilize - Cure Spells(Since you get more as you level, heal becomes less & less useful for this) Disease/Poison - From the get go, you can use anti-venom. Later there is delay poison, then remove disease, then negate poison. Tell how someone died - Speak with dead does it just fine. (while this one remains pretty useful as you level, due to having to wait a day for someone to prepair the spell, yet heal is usefull immediately, its scope is so limited its hardly useful. Add in that anyone with a good wisdom can benefit from a potion/spell of owls wisdom and take 20 and get it right most of the time.) Heal scales backwards(in that it becomes less & less suefull as you level up.) Anything that gets less usefull as you level is worthless. This is like saying 'Why learn land navigation? I'm carrying a GPS!' :) Ever play in an adventure where your spells become non-functional or unpredictable? Heal comes in quite handy. Or in the adventure I'm currently running. The cleric has both magic and the Heal skill. Even with spontaneous healing he can't guarantee he'll have enough (or the right spell memorized, for poisons/diseases) to go round. Increasing everyones healing rate from time to time helps mitigate this.
shamurai7 04-30-07, 09:31 AM	well for some skills i have added house rules to make them more atteractive...for the appraise skill i start all buying at 115% and selling at 35% and their appraise gets them a better deal in their favor 1% for each # of their roll.. so they want to sell a cure mod potion and his appraise is a 23 then he sells it for 58% its book value. also when the players know this mechanic it takes a big load off the dm's shoulders. so in my games apprasie is a very important mechanic.
SirTodd 04-30-07, 09:32 AM	I have been playing 3.0/3.5 since they were first released. These are the skills I never saw used: Decipher Script (By the time we needed it we had plenty of magic to cover this.) Escape Artist (We have never been left unguarded and tied up... And to date the only times we spent captured they didn't shackle anyone.) Forgery (no clue why... it has potential to irritate GMs however) Profession (only selected by one character ever [prof-sailor], and he didn't even really need to use it. And we were playing in a game that was naval in nature. Most of the tasks it allows you familiarity with can be defaulted or replaced by another skill. And perform or craft are easier to make money with.) Use Rope (unless you have a bad Dex you can do most of this by default and taking 10.) These are the skills I saw rarely used: Balance (only usefull in that naval game) Disguise (this only came in handy once when we had a price on our heads) Handle Animal (We had a druid who made acceptable use of this for a few levels... but by and by no one ever needed it.) Intimidate (Diplomacy works better... but I have seen it used) Knowledges [all] (Depends on the GM purely. If the GM lets you know about stuff with a Knowledge check they come in very handy. But I have played under many GMs who disallow anything usefull from these skills.) Slieght of Hand (again not sure why no one used this much... but it was rarely used) Also to respond to some people: Heal was used frequently even though we had a full time cleric. It seemed to come in handy a lot... especially when the cleric got himself turned to stone.
sark 04-30-07, 04:20 PM	diplomacy..... Do people actually use that? I mean, if someone in my game said..."i'm making a diplomacy check" and reaches for the dice... i'd tell him to hold on... "You tell me what you say to the guy, and i'll let you know how 'diplomatic' it was..." You gotta get your role playing somewhere, and who wants to bring swords to EVERY game? A half-elf cleric in our party used diplomacy so that the group could camp with a travelling caravan as there was rumoured to be a FeverClaw in the area. She has a +14 to diplomacy which helped - some..... ;) The captain of the guard, an ogre, said the group could camp on the edge of the caravan but she was to stay with him "so that she was safe". She took 11 points of damage while with him that night. ;)
Qwicksilver 04-30-07, 05:46 PM	Open lock vs. disable device I kind of feel they should be merged together or have synergies or something.
TyWebb 04-30-07, 05:54 PM	Escape Artist (We have never been left unguarded and tied up... And to date the only times we spent captured they didn't shackle anyone.) Escape Artist is great for low-STR high-DEX characters for escaping grapples and spells like entangle. The cleric's not always going to be right next to you with a freedom of movement spell handy (hmmmm.....I'll have to have a word with him about that!:) )
Argo 04-30-07, 06:14 PM	Forgery has saved my skin more than once. My best use of Forgery to date was to forge Wanted posters with the names and faces of a rival adventuring party and plaster them all over town. They got locked up, and we got the contracts. Escape Artist isn't just for wriggling out of ropes. If you've ever played a Small race fighting a grappling monster, a high Escape Artist will save your life. Sleight of Hand has helped me conceal weapons / thieves' tools / other useful items on my person during a Search by the town guard, has made me hundreds of gp via picking pockets, enabled me to steal a powerful artifact from right under the noses of the guards hired to protect it, draw a weapon whilst talking to someone without them noticing. Heal becomes way more valuable a skill when you take the skill trick Healing Hands from Complete Scoundrel. A Heal check made to stabilize a dying character heals 1d6 points of damage. But even without that, our Cleric makes Heal checks all the time. He makes Heal checks from the back of the line to see if anyone in the party is injured. He makes Heal checks to stabilize party members when he's run out of Cure spells. He makes Heal checks to provide long-term care if anyone has taken ability damage. Knowledge: Have you ever encountered a monster? Knowing what it is, its weaknesses, its strengths, etc. is a useful ability to have. Balance is only useless if you don't mind getting Sneak Attacked every time someone lays down a cantrip (Grease), or you don't mind falling off the crumbling ledge into the pool of molten rock. Jump is only useless if you don't mind wasting a Fly spell to get someone across the 15 foot pit to extend the bridge. Use Rope is... ok, Use Rope is kind of lame. I've never played in a game where anyone even used any of the following skills: Craft Intimidate Use Psionic Device Everything else is pretty dang useful. I think every skill on that list has saved someone's life in every campaign I've played in. Yes, even Perform.
Grand Theft Otto 04-30-07, 06:23 PM	Like when you need to get to the top of a building with unclimbable walls. If no one has Use Rope you can't tie a grapple to rope well. Plus you can make it with Minor creation. 1 rank of use rope, silk rope and a 14 dex mean you basically never have to make a check. MW manacles are considerably better for securing prisoners for many levels. Use Rope is at the top of the lame skill list. We merged it into survival. Escape Artist isnt useless, but I really hate it. Its a requirement for high level characters to even hope to get out of a grapple. How many times has someone actually used this lame ass skill to get out of bonds? Once, twice per campaign? IMO it should be a feat.
Perseus_Stoned 04-30-07, 07:01 PM	The fallacy of that is that you are using the player`s diplomacy and not the character`s diplomacy... So a fair bard elf with 20 charisma and full ranks in diplomacy will be a way worse diplomat than an 3 charisma barbarian half-orc if the player of the half-orc is more charismatic in the real life and the elf player is a moron. The fallacy of that is then there'd be metagaming going on.
UnknownMourner 05-01-07, 12:10 AM	We trashed Use Rope and just put set DCs on everything. We do grapnels as ranged touch attacks. The thought that someone, even a commoner, couldn't tie someone up is lame. Forgery is great for Urban Campaigns.
Grimmsfeld 05-01-07, 02:23 AM	Appraise is a must-have skill in a campaign since your characters unlike you dont have access to the dungeon master guide and dont have idea of how much is worth an item, specially magical ones.Iunno...I tend to think that Appraise is more like an Antiques Road Show sort of deal, where it's more for pricing up the Giant-King's heirloom set of wooden spoons as opposed to everyday-use items. Actually, I don't ever think I've played in a game where Appraise was allowed to determine the price of a magic item.
Lord T Hawkeye 05-01-07, 02:52 AM	A nice puzzle to make a PC grateful he took appraise. Room has two diamonds on pedastles, one is real, one is fake. When one is taken, the other is destroyed.
CaoSlayer 05-01-07, 04:20 AM	The fallacy of that is then there'd be metagaming going on. What do you prefer, "metagaming" (since being a better social person than a very antisocial half-orc hardly can be called metamaging but common sense, the same way you can tell a warrior type will endure more punishment in a fight than a wizard) or raping the role of the characters. Iunno...I tend to think that Appraise is more like an Antiques Road Show sort of deal, where it's more for pricing up the Giant-King's heirloom set of wooden spoons as opposed to everyday-use items. Actually, I don't ever think I've played in a game where Appraise was allowed to determine the price of a magic item. Dont being aware of the power of a skill dont makes it weaker. By the RAW the appraise description dont says that the items must be non-magical or you cant appraise magical items so is legal to appraise them. Of course for appraising an magical item you must know that is magical and what it does or you will be only able to evaluate the non-magical cost of the item.
SirTodd 05-01-07, 08:28 AM	Appraise and Craft are skills many of my own characters use frequently. I will admit you don't need a lot of Appraise. About 1-5 ranks and your set for life. In fact a craft based character with enough down time can have a GP amount much higher than is normal for his level. Up to about 3 times in fact. And if you gain access to Fabricate spell then you don't even need the downtime anymore. Appraise is basically usefull to anyone who finds treasure. And I place it along side Climb, Swim, and Tumble as far as buying ranks. Those skills are not opposed so all you need is enough to hit the target number you desire.
Rhuxley 05-01-07, 01:00 PM	Some things people think are useless i just dont understand. A skill is useless when it meets 3 criteria. 2 of the 3 make it slightly usefull. Criteria: 1. It is usable untrained (This means that everyone can do it without buying ranks in it) 2. It is usefull in combat and the DC are below 15, or it is usefull out of combat and the DC are below 25. 3. It can be replicated to greater or equal effect by an spell that is low enough level so that wands of it are cheap enough to purchase by the dozen. Examples of skills that meet all the criteria are this: Heal - The worst skill ever. It becomes increasingly less usefull as time goes on, as wand of Cure Minor costs less than 400gp, and potions of it are 25gp. Add to it, that everyone can use it untrained, and that you can take 10, so buying a healers kit & having a +3 wisdom makes you instantly successful as long as you are not being threatened in combat. Long term care is the same way, DC 15 and you can take 10. Treat disease is worthless, as most disease incubate for a day, so you have a day to prepare the spell if your not prepared enough to just get a scroll of it. Open Lock - Knock does this better, and with 100% accuracy. Sure its good for doors at low levels, but then again, so is a war hammer/axe. Survival - All DCs are 10, and you can take 10. Wanna track? Buy a riding dog, they get scent, and track, making them better than a ranger anyway. Use Rope - You can take 10, add silk or elven rope and a good dex, and your looking at auto beating DC:15-18. Meet 2 of the 3 criteria, making them "slightly usefull": Handle Animal - Only good for puching an animal to do a trick it doesnt know, given that you can take 20, and the DC is 20, i see no reason to take this, except for if you really need your animal companion to do a crazy trick in combat.
jadehawk 05-01-07, 01:11 PM	A final word on use rope. In addition to being used to tie people up and as synergy bonuses to escape artist and climb, you roll use rope checks to fasten grappling hooks. This virtually saved my party last session when we were attacked by a shambling mound. I think profession is arguably the least useful skill out there. It doesn't compare to adventuring in terms of revenue generation, and it provides services, so it doesn't have an end result to use as with craft skills or affect NPC behaviour as does perform. I have DM'd ad hoc synergy bonuses to make profession skills more attractive (sailor/use rope for instance). All the rest of the skills are either useful for nearly all PCs or essential for certain builds.
nightwyrm 05-01-07, 01:22 PM	Craft(taxidermy) can be kinda fun. DM: Ok, the BBEG is dead. Player: Good, I taxidermize her.
Perseus_Stoned 05-01-07, 01:50 PM	What do you prefer, "metagaming" (since being a better social person than a very antisocial half-orc hardly can be called metamaging but common sense, the same way you can tell a warrior type will endure more punishment in a fight than a wizard) or raping the role of the characters. In this case it doesn't have to be an "either" choice; simply roleplay without metagaming.
CaoSlayer 05-01-07, 04:40 PM	In this case it doesn't have to be an "either" choice; simply roleplay without metagaming. But the trouble is that dont using the character's ranks and stats is really metagaming because you arent using the character social knowledge in place of the player one, yes, a player who is socially competent maybe can have a good time playing a dumb character but a dumb player will have a very hard time doing it. See it like a knowledge check, a veteran player would know a lot of things about many creatures that his character dont know because is a new character and he can try to "forget" the stuff he knows for the sake of roleplaying. And the oposite is the new player in d&d who plays with an old wizard with many knowledge skills so the player can ignore that a troll only can be killed with fire but his character knows it. The same is with diplomacy, maybe the player dont knows anything about diplomacy or is very shy but his character is totally the oposite. If you ignore the character´s social stats then you should require the fighter´s player to swing a sword, the rogue's player to pick a lock and the wizard's player to cast a spell.
tyrecian 05-01-07, 06:49 PM	many of the skills listed are being warped to either not show their full potential or they are being misused... "I'm surprised heal was only mentioned once. All its functions are slowly replaced by spells." True i suppose, but if you don't have spells to use, then it becomes priceless, plus the 2x heal rate each night is great at higher levels when your PCs have enormous amounts of HP. Take a few days off, and only the Cleric needs healing. Proffession skills might seem useless if you dont, or havent ever used em, but at the same time, think about the usage in D&D to the characters. If noone has them, ever, then there are no items from the PHB available. If you need some armor crafted immediately from your adamantine bars you got in the dwarven mines, then you might go on an actual adventure to find a master armorer... Pointless is only those not incorporated. Proffession can also give a PC a reputation other than the class they take, which can be helpful roleplaying. If the enemy or the barkeep thinks of you as the gambler rather than the wizard, you might not get so much grief. I know we are speaking more about PC skills, but that is why they are in the book, so that the game will be complete. That is why there is a feat to use Simple weapons. Perhaps noone has ever taken that feat, but it is there so that you can look at it and know what they mean when they allow it for Clerics and such. Insofar as appraise goes, when i roll art items, i make the list typed and give it to the PCs, when they go and try to sell it to a merchant (and yes RP opportunities) the merchants i use usually have appraise and sense motive as well as blluff as skills (mostly around lvl 5-8 experts) and will use these to give the chars half or even 1/4 the value... it behooves the skills guy (rogue usually) to go ahead and have some appraise. Perhaps not MAXXED, but some is never hurting anyone. Rhuxley points out the uselessness of both Survival and Open Locks. have you ever played the game we are speaking about? Riding dogs can track by scent, but you would have to train it from birth (by the rules) to be able to get it to track for YOU... If you are in the heat of battle and your riding dog gets caught in AoE, or simply is afraid of whatever you are fighting (higher levels) then you are screwed. Survival also allows for foraging in tough terrains, in other words not dying from starvation/dehydration. Not useless at all. High Survival can tell you how many opponents are in the next room, how many enemies ran away, which way, and what speed they are moving. A dog cant do that at all. Open locks replaced by a 2nd level spell? I probably would rather have my rogue take Cat's Grace and open the lock with his MW thieve's picks and tools... Knock is a waste of spell slot when a rogue can do the same thing with a check. I don't know about yours, but in my campaigns when there is a rogue in the group, there is never a knock spell on the PCs' spell lists. As far as Handle Animal is concerned, if you want your fighter to have an animal companion that can actually do more than look pretty, you will have to be able to make the check, no taking 20 in combat. A bear that rides a trike is an NPC trick, a bear that mauls and flanks is what the skill is designed for, yes? Craft arrow is infintely useful for a Ranger at both low and higher levels (with magic bow) if there is no town. Stuck in the 7 Heavens? Happy Hunting Grounds? Wizard dead, can't get out? You might not have a jackass DM that makes you restring on 1's, but most DMs dont give infinite arrows. And sunder can be a pain in the arse if you dont have a backup weapon, so craft for a fighter to make his own weapons is never wasted, even 1 rank... (in my campaigns we use basic firearms, more advanced firearms require craft to make casing style bullets, you also need tools, not useless at all, if you want to use a lever action rifle, ever) Intimidate can be arguably replaced by bluff in more situations, as well as diplomacy, however intimidate can be a standard action in combat to lower a persons saves and attack by 2.... Saves by 2, Wizard: I hold a Charm Person for Bobby the Slayer to intimidate Guy Bobby the Slayer: I intimidate Guy Guy: You wouldn't dare, OMG OMG OMG Wizard: Casts Guy: Alright you got me! Whoa, man, you guys and your practical jokes, hey i get off soon, wanna get a beer? (there are other uses, great at low levels as a debuff if you dont want to kill someone, but need the spell to work) Use Rope is only underestimated by people who only know how to tie their shoes. Ever been in the Navy? Boy Scouts? There are all kinds of uses for Use Rope. Potentially make snares with it, traps, slip knots, these are things a commoner cant do. I liked the bridge idea, or even set up a sail, you cant do that without knowledge of intricate knots. Sure a commoner could tie someon up, but he isnt going to be there an hour later. A rogue (high use rope) could hogtie a villain, and he will be there several days later. Knowledge is used a Bunch in my games, the players with knowledge (wizzie) always make checks for anything, then the bard makes their lore check when they hear the wizzie make checks. I remember a Cleric in one of our campaigns that had Leadership and he made his followers lvl 1 bards, and took the feat Skill Focus: Knowledge, each a different one, but high levels his 2nd level bards were able to research anything he needed to know... about almost anything. Very helpful. Balance is a Key skill for anyone who doesnt want to slip on ice or on a ledge, very important if you are using Plate Mail, with a Tower Shield and a longsword. Sleet storm will own you, you will be prone and blind the whole combat. As a DM, i use balance check DC10 all the time in my traps, most fighters and Clerics just fall right over. Sure a rogue might not need to take any ranks, but to a cleric this skill can be more of a lifesaver than Diplomacy. Which brings us to diplomacy. At lower levels, you can negotiate fees and prices lower sometimes (not always, but many cultures barter). Also it helps make charisma checks for NPC charts on the "friendly" table in the DMG. Can be the difference in being allowed into the town without peach bonds, or even with your weapons at all. A "Friendly" guard will probably not search your carriage at all, however, a guard that is default is gonna give you the 20questions. Also in my high end campaigns i almost always include intelligent weapons to mess around with the PCs. They typically have a purpose and attached powers, or perhaps even primary powers instead of all secondary. These will only be revealed by a "freindly" artifact. Most start out helpful if they are same alignment, meaning a DC 20 charisma check... definately worth it for the PC to know if his item has 2 more powers. Rosencrantz and Guildenstern would still be alive if they had been skilled in Forgery.
Silversheen197 05-01-07, 07:48 PM	I don't think there's a single skill that I haven't seen a good use for...let's see: Appraise-when I run, characters don't automatically know that the gem they just found is worth 100 gp, how much that magic item is worth, etc., unless their character has a very good reason to know. The skill-monkey almost always has Appraise. Balance-Very useful on ice, moving platforms, ships, grease, and others. Bluff-Not joking, I have seen this used every, single, session I have ever been to or DMed. The people I play with love Bluff. Climb-Yeah, there's spider climb and fly, but the party spell-slinger is never going to have enough for every single party member, nor nessicarily even be able to reach them in time. Plus, as a ninja, you need this maxxed out to make use of speed climb. Concentration-Spellcasters need this. Everyone knows why. Craft-Currently playing a focused transmuter who is an expert crafter. The party slew four dragons, a very young red, blue, green, and white, and I crafted masterwork daggers for every party member out of each dragons' teeth. Other than that, with fabricate coming up later, that party will never want for masterwork (or magical, with Craft Magic Arms and Armor) weapons again. Decipher Script-A little less useful, but in most campaigns I've been in, there have been extinct languages, and being able to decipher them has saved us many times. Diplomacy-"Oh, master great red wyrm, we appologize for intruding on your private domain. We were under the mistaken impression that this cavern led somewhere else. Would you kindly forgive our tresspassing and not consume us?" This worked, thanks to a +16 Diplomacy (no magic items). Disable Device-If you don't like being speared, scorched, poisoned or skewered by traps, someone needs this. Disguise-I just ran a session last Friday where a player needed to disguise himself as a bum or be taken in by the watch to face trial for murder. He got away with it. Escape Artist-as said above, Small characters need this for escaping grapples, and I've used it to escape from bonds before. Forgery-My players could have gotten out of a lot of trouble a while ago if they had had some ranks in this (for detecting a forgery), and I've found unlimited uses for false identification papers. Gather Information-In urban campaigns, this is useful for a bunch of things. Handle Animal-Finding and training feasome pets can be fun ("here, Rexy! Good boy! Now maul that nice man over there...) Heal-If the cleric is distracted, out of spells, gone, or dead, this can be extremely useful if someone is dying, contracted various diseases or implantations, and even when the cleric is around, decreasing healing time is great. Hide-I don't need to explain this. Intimidate-two uses here: first, making who you know won't listen to your Diplomacy do what you want. Second, scaring someone silly in battle. Jump-anyone who thinks this is a useless skill obviously hasn't played a catfolk monk/ninja with max ranks in Jump. Combine with a cloak of arachnia for even more fun. Plus, why waste a spell when you can just jump? Knowledge-In campaigns where the players and DM discourage metagaming, these are very handy. If you have no idea that a golem is immune to magic, your wizard is going to waste all his spells in one encounter, just wondering why nothing seems to work. Listen-another obvious one. Move Silently-see above. Open Lock-would you rather have knock prepared, or a buff like bull's strength? If you find a door that's magically locked, wait a day and prepare it. Otherwise, just let the rogue take care of it. No waste of magic. Perform-All bards need this. Most people don't like bards, but for those who do, this skill is invaluable. Profession-a month ago, I would have agreed that this skill was useless, but now that I'm running a Stromwrack campaign, every character (except one) has ranks in Profession (sailor). They couldn't go anywhere without it. Ride-Paladins need this, as does anyone who wants to be able to fight while mounted. Search-If you want to find the traps that spear, scorch, poison, or skewer you before they do so, someone needs this. Also useful for finding secret doors and hidden treasure. Sense Motive-it's always nice to be able to tell when someone is lying to you. You're not always going to have detect lies going, or have time to cast it. Sleight of Hand-easy and fun way to make money, hide things on you person before you get searched, etc. If your character gambles, this is useful there, too. Speak Language-It's always a good idea to speak a bunch of languages. Spellcraft-no need to explain here. Spot-see above. Survival-Predict the weather, get food and water so you don't starve, track people who are trying to run, this skill has a myriad of uses. Swim-as I said above, this skill is invaluable in a seafaring campaign. Outside of that, I've seen dozens of characters die because of their horrible Swim modifiers. Tumble-Should be obvious. Use Magic Device-if you find an unknown magic item, this is a great way to be able to use it if you need it before you can get an identify cast. Use Rope-A few ranks in this and an unconscious prisoner. Take 20, and he's not going anywhere.
BW0222 05-02-07, 03:05 AM	Rhuxley, Some things people think are useless i just dont understand. A skill is useless when it meets 3 criteria. 2 of the 3 make it slightly usefull. Criteria: 1. It is usable untrained (This means that everyone can do it without buying ranks in it) 2. It is usefull in combat and the DC are below 15, or it is usefull out of combat and the DC are below 25. 3. It can be replicated to greater or equal effect by an spell that is low enough level so that wands of it are cheap enough to purchase by the dozen. I'd say. 1. It it used infrequently. 2. It can be replaced by inexpensive, spells, magical items, hiring others, or other abilities. 3. It's use is typically not required in combat or in life-and-death adventuring. 4. Does not provide synergy bonuses to a useful skill. Heal - The worst skill ever. It becomes increasingly less usefull as time goes on, as wand of Cure Minor costs less than 400gp, and potions of it are 25gp. Add to it, that everyone can use it untrained, and that you can take 10, so buying a healers kit & having a +3 wisdom makes you instantly successful as long as you are not being threatened in combat. Long term care is the same way, DC 15 and you can take 10. Treat disease is worthless, as most disease incubate for a day, so you have a day to prepare the spell if your not prepared enough to just get a scroll of it. Actually, it is an extremely useful skill. First, at low-levels you don't have potions, wands, or scrolls and (equally importantly) not every class can use the wands and scrolls. Stablizing someone is useful. Neutralize posion is a 4th-level clerical spell, scrolls are 375gp each, and even if you have a druid in the party, it is extremely unlikely he'll keep the spell in memory. Until mid-levels, chances are you are relying on heal to combat diseases. Second, even at mid-levels carrying around a lot of potions, scrolls, or wands to get rid of disease and poison just in case is extremely expensive. 5 potions of each costs 3750gp. One bad encounter with some wererats and you could be out of scrolls and then forced to memorize the spells for the rest of the adventure. Third, the skill can be used to examine bodies and determine things like how the creature was killed and when. Open Lock - Knock does this better, and with 100% accuracy. Sure its good for doors at low levels, but then again, so is a war hammer/axe. Only wizards and sorcerors can cast knock. Otherwise it is UMD at 75gp per pop. A wand costs 4500gp, so it isn't an option until at least 5th or so, and a dungeon with say ten locked rooms, six chests, two lockers, and a couple of pad locks, could easily cost more to get through than you might find. Knock also makes noise. Negating surpise. You can't chop down metal or stone doors and even with wooden ones it alerts everyone in the complex, it gives several rounds for everyone to set-up, ensures the most optimal readied actions for when the door does come down, etc. In the case of chests and boxes, it often destroys valuable contents such as potions, glassware, etc. Survival - All DCs are 10, and you can take 10. What? Only getting along in the wild has a DC of 10. Even that one typically requires a higher roll since typically you would like to keep your companions alive also. It is also trained only. All others require at least a 15 and typically much higher to be useful, such as giving fortitude saves and determining weather. Wanna track? Buy a riding dog, they get scent, and track, making them better than a ranger anyway. If you read the track trick, the animal follows the scent presented to it. Unless you find the tracks in the first place or have an item of clothing or something from who it is you are tracking, the animal can't follow the trail -- or you could be following some squirrel trails for a half hour. Scent trails have a DC of 10, but increase by one per hour. Normal tracking only increase their DC by one per 24 hours -- except due to rain or snow. A ranger could follow a group of bugbears who attacked a fort six days ago. A dog couldn't manage a trail more than say 12 hours old. Dogs also can't identify tracks, determine number, age, doubling back, different sets of creatures, if they are dragging loads, if someone is injured, etc. Finally, dogs to easily killed, require handle animal checks, are often hard to transport up ladders, make noise, chase stuff, etc., etc. Personally, if I come to a group of dead farmers and the dog wants to lead us into the woods, I'd rather know that we are following the trail of a) a missing farm girl who fled the attack, b) six goblins, c) nine trolls, or d) a pair of rabbits. Use Rope - You can take 10, add silk or elven rope and a good dex, and your looking at auto beating DC:15-18. Fair enough. Baring binding someone, although manacles work better anyway. Handle Animal - Only good for puching an animal to do a trick it doesnt know, given that you can take 20, and the DC is 20, i see no reason to take this, except for if you really need your animal companion to do a crazy trick in combat. Animal companions still need to be trained, other than your starting companion, or bonus tricks. i.e. if you take a bear at 4th-level, you still need to train them if you want more than one trick. You can't take a 20 on handle animal. It takes too long in to push an animal in combat -- which is about the only time you need to. Even outside of combat, if you have five or six mules to get across a pond (normally taking say one minute per mule), taking a twenty could take hours. Taking a twenty for teaching tricks, would mean that your badger would die of old age because you gave him guarding set (i.e. nearly 7 years). Try training horses that way and you would pay more in stabling, feed, and inn space for yourself than the horse is worth. My set is limited to... craft, most profession skills, decipher script, forgery, and use rope.
Rhuxley 05-02-07, 02:15 PM	I'd say. 1. It it used infrequently. 2. It can be replaced by inexpensive, spells, magical items, hiring others, or other abilities. 3. It's use is typically not required in combat or in life-and-death adventuring. 4. Does not provide synergy bonuses to a useful skill. Also a good list, though I would like to see thta spell thing back on there. Actually, it is an extremely useful skill. First, at low-levels you don't have potions, wands, or scrolls and (equally importantly) not every class can use the wands and scrolls. Stablizing someone is useful. Neutralize posion is a 4th-level clerical spell, scrolls are 375gp each, and even if you have a druid in the party, it is extremely unlikely he'll keep the spell in memory. Until mid-levels, chances are you are relying on heal to combat diseases. Second, even at mid-levels carrying around a lot of potions, scrolls, or wands to get rid of disease and poison just in case is extremely expensive. 5 potions of each costs 3750gp. One bad encounter with some wererats and you could be out of scrolls and then forced to memorize the spells for the rest of the adventure. Third, the skill can be used to examine bodies and determine things like how the creature was killed and when. Yes, at low levels it is nice to have a few ranks in heal, because untill mid-levels you cant afford to have the items you need to negate it. But, and heres the clincher, once you can buy 5 of each potion, all those points you wasted would look a whole lot better in UMD or some other skill. Heal is usefull at low levels, and an acceptable choice at mid levels, but at high levels they are wasted skill points. Only wizards and sorcerors can cast knock. Otherwise it is UMD at 75gp per pop. A wand costs 4500gp, so it isn't an option until at least 5th or so, and a dungeon with say ten locked rooms, six chests, two lockers, and a couple of pad locks, could easily cost more to get through than you might find. Knock also makes noise. Negating surpise. You can't chop down metal or stone doors and even with wooden ones it alerts everyone in the complex, it gives several rounds for everyone to set-up, ensures the most optimal readied actions for when the door does come down, etc. In the case of chests and boxes, it often destroys valuable contents such as potions, glassware, etc. Knock only makes noise if cast verbally, but from a wand(which is available somewhere after 5th level) it does not. Like i said with heal, at low levels those are skill points wel spent, but after 10th level or so, the locks are no longer big challenges. Hell go this route: buy pearl of power 2 for the wizard and have him use this slot to prepare knock every day. Its cost effective in high levels, and then those ranks in open lock would look so much better in other areas. What? Only getting along in the wild has a DC of 10. Even that one typically requires a higher roll since typically you would like to keep your companions alive also. It is also trained only. All others require at least a 15 and typically much higher to be useful, such as giving fortitude saves and determining weather. It is not trained only, im lookin at it now on the SRD. Anyway, let the dog do the foraging for food once you can access a speak with animals spell. Or maybe, use the clerics create food & water spell. There are no uses with a DC higher than 15, im looking in the SRD now. As for a DC 15, cast owls wisdom and take a 10, or tell the dog to do it with speak with animals spells. [/QUOTE]
mercboy666 05-02-07, 02:25 PM	I'm surprised heal was only mentioned once. All its functions are slowly replaced by spells. Stabilize - Cure Spells(Since you get more as you level, heal becomes less & less useful for this) Disease/Poison - From the get go, you can use anti-venom. Later there is delay poison, then remove disease, then negate poison. Tell how someone died - Speak with dead does it just fine. (while this one remains pretty useful as you level, due to having to wait a day for someone to prepair the spell, yet heal is usefull immediately, its scope is so limited its hardly useful. Add in that anyone with a good wisdom can benefit from a potion/spell of owls wisdom and take 20 and get it right most of the time.) Heal scales backwards(in that it becomes less & less suefull as you level up.) Anything that gets less usefull as you level is worthless. heal is good skill for a group without divine spellcasters, like a group of fighters and wizards.
sineous blackspell 05-02-07, 02:26 PM	all the skills at some point maybe relevant(in fact save your characters life) at some point it maybe skill not magic to help you i am sure these boards can think of many situations to use a particular skill though some or less may not get as much use as a player would prefer(slieght,forgery, eh lots of rogue skills get the dm eye) ya my point is the only useless skill was the one you took but never used!
mercboy666 05-02-07, 02:30 PM	Open lock vs. disable device I kind of feel they should be merged together or have synergies or something. open lock unlocks certain things, like doors or chests. disable device is meant for traps that are placed on the locks or in halls and rooms. they arnt close enough to be merged.
nightwyrm 05-02-07, 02:30 PM	heal is good skill for a group without divine spellcasters, like a group of fighters and wizards. The big problem with this is that heal is not a class skill for any of them. The ones who have heal as a class skill are usually the ones who already have cure spells.
sark 05-02-07, 02:39 PM	I'd thought about not making comments about some of the equipment/item comments here but, what the heck.... :) (Also because of a couple of comments about meta-gaming) Rhuxley said: "buy pearl of power 2...." (and others talked about items) Maybe I am one of a/few people (or possibly an insane only one) but, although it's nice to know about magic/wondrous items etc etc but it can also detract from the game aka power-gaming, because you have (or draw up) set lists of equipment of "would likes" and "must haves" for your characters - and possibly go out of your way to obtain them, or ask in every city/whatever methods etc. With the exception of looking at what is listed on systemreferencedocuments.org and in the books I have, yes there are some way nice items that could pump up my character and make me able to do a lot more, is that the way i want to play, or do i want to role-play and treat discovered items with wonder & awe just like it would be for the character? (I saw the thread about Magic Compendium, which i bought for a friend - damned hard to not read it/get my own - but if he puts things in our game i won't know ahead of time what they are/do etc... meta-gaming i think you call that?) I think it's all how you want to play the game and how the DM runs it as to what is & isn't useless and, when you get new(er) players part of the fun can also come from them as they learn & play their character with the group. (I've only been playing D&D for a few months and have a great deal to learn, which is why my half-elf cleric got into the situation previously mentioned... she, and i, didn't know better) YMMV of course and I respect that quite a few may feel differently. (My 2 copper pieces) :)
Grand Theft Otto 05-02-07, 05:22 PM	Use Rope is only underestimated by people who only know how to tie their shoes. Ever been in the Navy? Boy Scouts? There are all kinds of uses for Use Rope. Potentially make snares with it, traps, slip knots, these are things a commoner cant do. Traps are handled under Craft: Traps, so use rope really doesnt grant that by the rules. Slip Knots are DC 15, meaning a guy with a 14 dex, silk rope and 1 rank can take 10 on this. [quote]I liked the bridge idea, or even set up a sail, you cant do that without knowledge of intricate knots. Sure a commoner could tie someon up, but he isnt going to be there an hour later. A rogue (high use rope) could hogtie a villain, and he will be there several days later. Bridge is under craft as well. Setting upa sail is under profession: sailor. Use Rope is "useful" only for tying someone up, but you need to sink a hefty chunk of ranks before you can beat the DC's of manacles (30) and masterwork manacles (DC 35). I agree on most levels with your points, but Use Rope is really, *really* niche, and IMO should just be folded into something else. The knot/grapple stuff should go into Survival or Climb. The escape artist DC's should pretty much be static IMO.
Argo 05-02-07, 05:56 PM	Yes, at low levels it is nice to have a few ranks in heal, because untill mid-levels you cant afford to have the items you need to negate it. But, and heres the clincher, once you can buy 5 of each potion, all those points you wasted would look a whole lot better in UMD or some other skill. Heal is usefull at low levels, and an acceptable choice at mid levels, but at high levels they are wasted skill points. How do you figure? You put them in at low level, when they were needed to save lives. If you didn't put them there, you wouldn't MAKE IT to high level. It's useless to drop 5 ranks in heal when you're at 20th level and the party Cleric can drop Heals and Cures like a mofo, but at level 2, it's a different story. No Healy, No Livey.
Rhuxley 05-03-07, 08:34 AM	How do you figure? You put them in at low level, when they were needed to save lives. If you didn't put them there, you wouldn't MAKE IT to high level. It's useless to drop 5 ranks in heal when you're at 20th level and the party Cleric can drop Heals and Cures like a mofo, but at level 2, it's a different story. No Healy, No Livey. You're phrasing that like an ultimatum. If i dont put ranks into heal, i will die. Well nobody i game with put any ranks in heal, and were all 8th level. Apparantly the clerics & bards heal spells were enough. We made a few heal checks, but always just rolled and it worked out ok. So luckily i got to spend those skill points on other useful things, like languages, Use Magic Device, etc. Note how those skill are still hella useful at 20th level, since you cant just make a check and see if you speak goblin or not.
sineous blackspell 05-03-07, 09:42 AM	normally i think dms let people "bind wounds"free not even much concerned if they 1 have heal skill or 2 heal kit much less if they make the heal check dc but thats what the rules say so guess were all lucky ^^
Rhuxley 05-03-07, 11:05 AM	normally i think dms let people "bind wounds"free not even much concerned if they 1 have heal skill or 2 heal kit much less if they make the heal check dc but thats what the rules say so guess were all lucky ^^ Well the issue isnt so much that you can do it untrained, because a 0 level spell not only stabalizes, but gives 1hp back (which occasionally is the one needed to get back to 0 hp). Heal needs to be expanded, i feel it should be changed to "Anatomy" and give additional abilities, like being able to deal extra damage similar to sneak attack. Maybe like "As a move action, you may make an anatomy check to figure out the location of a vital organ. Make a check, DC: opponents AC + opponents HD.(or something like that). If you pass you double your critical threat range for the rest of the round." Somehow gaining the ability to gain some sort of bonus that would insite people to put points into heal.