VoP Fix? [Archive] - Wizards Community - Pages Merged by Solauren

VoP Fix? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Joshua_Cail
05-07-07, 01:27 PM I believe I've heard many people say that the Vow of Poverty is completely broken. It's one of the many things that give the BoED it's nickname, "The Book of Exalted Cheese." I agree in that it seems too powerful overall, but I can't pinpoint exactly what is wrong with it.

I was wondering if anyone could tell me just what is broken about it and if anyone has come up with any fixes for it. If so, could you please either give me the link or repost it?

Essentially, the Vow should give players equivalent powers to the amount of magic items, etc. you would normally acquire by each level, and maybe a little extra since you have less flexibility on which items to buy and severe limitations on the daily life of your character.

Thanks
runestar
05-07-07, 01:34 PM Naturally, the player who does take it will ensure that his character is designed so as to lose as little from no eq as possible.

Monks benefit quite a lot from VOP. Especially in polymorph.
Druids as well since VOP benefits carry over to wildshape.
Soulknife is not a bad choice, since it has its own weapon. Take warforged so you have armour to enchant as well(though finding an opportunity to enchant it can be tricky).
Joshua_Cail
05-07-07, 01:50 PM Would a possible fix be something that would then be customizable for characters? At each level, give them several options, or just make it an ability system, where you gain greater abilities at certain levels, lesser abilities at others, and least abilities at really unimportant levels?

Or maybe different types of the vow that you choose. Kind of like the new variant for monks from unearthed arcana that lets you choose a particular fighting style.
Radijs
05-07-07, 02:02 PM I still have to see how vow of poverty is broken.
If you add the diffrent abilities together they end up with a lot less compared to items bought with normal gold.

I'll have to say though that what Runestar says about a warforged enchanting his armor breaks the vow.
Part-Human2
05-07-07, 05:06 PM There's a Save My Game online Article on VoP on the WotC site.
StruckingFuggle
05-07-07, 06:45 PM Essentially, the Vow should give players equivalent powers to the amount of magic items, etc. you would normally acquire by each level, and maybe a little extra since you have less flexibility on which items to buy and severe limitations on the daily life of your character.

Shocking truth: VoP's bonuses actually put you behind the curve. A player could, generally, buy the benefits of VoP and still have money left over, if the DM is following or exceeding the Wealth By Level guidelines that the game is balanced around.

Plus, it costs you two feats, one of which has almost no benefit. In return, you get a bunch of exalted feats. Ooooooh, how ... nifty. (can you sense the sarcastic underwhelmedness?)

Short of DM Monkeying Around, it's not overpowered. It's underpowered and inflexible (which is horrible in and of itself) with great PR. Plus, short of DM Monkeying Around, it has stringent rp requirements that might just drive your group up the wall.

It shines in some situations (on the generally rare time you'd get robbed or otherwise stripped of your items, and in low-magic games), but by and large, in general, "VoP = zomg teh POWAH!" is a baseless myth.
magmer2
05-07-07, 08:18 PM I still have to see how vow of poverty is broken.
If you add the diffrent abilities together they end up with a lot less compared to items bought with normal gold.

I'll have to say though that what Runestar says about a warforged enchanting his armor breaks the vow. It's all on how you do your math.
You see if you count all the abilities as slot less, which might matter to meld shapers, and count the +8 enhancement bonus to an ability score as epic. cuz you could have blew all your money on tomes then took this feat, then the value from that one ability is over 1.2 million. Now a more reasonable calculation would be 36k for +6. and ~20 for a +2 tome, and not counting slots because slots are almost useless.
DarkRhystar
05-07-07, 08:25 PM It shines in some situations (on the generally rare time you'd get robbed or otherwise stripped of your items, and in low-magic games), but by and large, in general, "VoP = zomg teh POWAH!" is a baseless myth.

It's not really that much of a myth considering it seems like most DMs that complain about it are the ones not following DMG guidelines and running low magic games.
runestar
05-07-07, 10:58 PM I'll have to say though that what Runestar says about a warforged enchanting his armor breaks the vow.
Depends on your interpretation of it, IMO.
Your body armour is not really considered a material possession(it cannot be broken off and sold, for example). By extension, even if his body composite plating has been enchanted to +10, it would still have no intrinsic value, simply because it is ultimately a feat which just happens to emulate an item, and not an actual item itself.

Of course, the challenge then comes on how to enchant it. You cannot use gold, since you are expected to donate that. Even if a spellcaster offers to do it for you, you are expected to reject his offer and request that the share be donated instead. Wish could be a viable solution, but you should be using your wish to benefit others rather than using it to augment your composite plating.

All in all, it is not impossible, merely unlikely.
Shadowhowler
05-08-07, 12:19 AM Depends on your interpretation of it, IMO.
Your body armour is not really considered a material possession(it cannot be broken off and sold, for example). By extension, even if his body composite plating has been enchanted to +10, it would still have no intrinsic value, simply because it is ultimately a feat which just happens to emulate an item, and not an actual item itself.

Of course, the challenge then comes on how to enchant it. You cannot use gold, since you are expected to donate that. Even if a spellcaster offers to do it for you, you are expected to reject his offer and request that the share be donated instead. Wish could be a viable solution, but you should be using your wish to benefit others rather than using it to augment your composite plating.

All in all, it is not impossible, merely unlikely.

Easiest way to do something like that would be take the vow later in game.

MOST of the VoP granted abilities are retroactive, only the additional Exhualted Feats are not.

So if you played a Warforged up to 12-15 whatever... spent all your gold enchanting your BODY... then took the VoP later, you would still have the benifit of all the stuff you paid for before, that is a permenent part of you now... and all the VoP features, except those extra feats.
Magrus
05-08-07, 12:36 AM A DM who let a person just switch gears when they planned to invest all of their wealth into themselves then say "I give all of my stuff to the people!" right after needs to get a grip. Thats like someone like Bill Gates tossing a $5 bill at a homeless person and saying he's a charitable person. If a 5th level character who gave away their only magic sword and chain shirt, and that potion of cure light wounds to others and took the feat, that would be a different story and make sense.
runestar
05-08-07, 01:12 AM A DM who let a person just switch gears when they planned to invest all of their wealth into themselves then say "I give all of my stuff to the people!" right after needs to get a grip. Thats like someone like Bill Gates tossing a $5 bill at a homeless person and saying he's a charitable person.
No, it would be more like a millionaire, after having enjoyed decades of high living, suddenly decided to give his entire wealth to various charities, while leaving zilch for himself.

That the millionaire just happens to have only $5 left to his name because of whatever reason is irrelevant...:P

Incidentally, this allows the warforged to enchant his own armour, splurge on stat tomes, then donate whatever is left to charity in the name of VOP, which incidentally happens to be nothing...:D
Radijs
05-08-07, 02:55 AM Oh its quite simple, my interpretation is the right one. Rule 0 remember?

Enchanting composite plating = broken vow
Getting tomes before taking the vow = smack with corner of my dmg.

See? Not that hard.
Qwicksilver
05-08-07, 03:07 AM People have mentioned this a bit before, but I'd like to know a few more details on VoP, and shapechange abilities. Does VoP with shapechange create a whole lot of balance problems?

Just asking, but I was never one to judge the brokenness of one aspect of the game on its synergy with another much more broken aspect of the game.
Radijs
05-08-07, 03:17 AM The most important thing about VoP and shapechanging abilities (I'm going to leave the shapechange spell out of this) is that you get a few enhancement bonuses to ability scores and attack/damage rolls. Since these are not from items they work in wildshape as well. This makes the powerful druid class even more powerful.
But if you ask me, I can make a druid much more deadly with wealth per level then with the VoP.
JulesCARV
05-08-07, 04:04 AM If you're running a low magic game with Vow of Poverty, I think it only makes sense to give VoP benefits commensurate with the level at which the other characters would expect to achieve their actual wealth if the wealth guidelines of DMG 135 were followed. For example, if you're running a campaign in which typical 10th level characters have about 10,000 gp worth of gear, you should note that they have wealth between that expected for a 5th (9,000) and 6th (13,000) level character. As such, you give the benefits of Vow of Poverty as if they were 5th level.
runestar
05-08-07, 04:05 AM Oh its quite simple, my interpretation is the right one. Rule 0 remember?

Enchanting composite plating = broken vow
Getting tomes before taking the vow = smack with corner of my dmg.

See? Not that hard.
You must admit though - it is not really all that difficult to justify it rp wise. :)
Radijs
05-08-07, 04:20 AM Please, indulge me.

Seriously though, if something like that would happen. A warforged with enchanted plates and/or tomes of whatever in his head taking the vow I would, in all fairness stage a divine intervention removing the magical effects from him and replace them with coin. Then he can do the right thing and donate it to charity.
runestar
05-08-07, 04:43 AM Well, VOP does not stipulate that you have to donate a minimum sum to charity. It just states that you give it all away, however much(or little) that may be.
This means that a commoner who is dirt poor can still qualify for said feat(in theory at least), even if he donates just a few copper each year(because that is all he can scrape together), so long as he adheres to the tenets of the vow.

Nor does the VOP feat state that it must be taken at 1st lv only. There is no reason why a normal paladin cannot continue adventuring as is, then take the feat at higher lvs(perhaps rp'ing the transition). Perhaps in gratitude for his god curing his sister of a serious disease which has every healer stymied, he agrees to forsake all his material possessions and take on a charitable cause(effectively taking on the VOP feat). As the effect of the vow is not retroactive, you do not need to give up any instantaneous benefits you may otherwise have gotten, such as tomes.

Alternatively, if I had used wishes to boost the relevant stat, I see no reason why I should be expected to give that up either. You may be right in that it could pose a possible abuse of in-game mechanics, but I see no reason for this to be enforced flavour-wise.

Could you perhaps supply me with one? Excluding "I am the dm and what I say goes?":)

On a side note, I have always wanted to give a dragon the VOP feat and pit one against the PCs...:D
Radijs
05-08-07, 05:45 AM Flavour wise indeed I see no reason. As you say. But like your example it is indeed a transitional thing and the PC would lose an amount of wealth that would keep the feat balanced.
He loses a lot of bonus feats and still a significant portion of his wealth.

However if a new character would be made in a high level campaign and the player would come up to me and say "Yea he's taken the vow of poverty but he can't sell his composite plating and he also read a lot of stat tomes before taking the feat." I'd tell him to stuff it where the sun don't shine.
efreeti
05-08-07, 11:56 AM Wishes should be seen as a seperate thing to wealth, surely it has to be a case by case basis?

If a character had got stat increases from a wish scroll they had found in a treasure horde and had just used them purely to increase their power then that is effectivley wealth and no different from a stat increase got from a tome or similar item. It should probably be taken away. If the wish related bonus had been gained because the character decided to use this valuable resource in the heat of the moment to better aid him in the destruction of XXX and help save the lives of the poor orphans then maybe the divine aspect granting the VoP would look upon that favourably and let him\her keep it.

If a divine power is strong enough to grant the benefits of a VoP to a charcter then I see no reason why it is not strong enough to take away any benefits that charcter has gained in the past as a result of his\her wealth.

I took VoP for my 14th level druid and we made quite a big thing out of it in game. I took it because of an alignment change brought on by big events which involved the destruction of a big town. Lots of people left homeless, the druid decided it weas not right for him to carry around all this wealth whilst they had nothing. He gave all his stuff to the fleeing refugees to help them fight off the demons and pledged to continue the fight only with the stick in his hand and whatever help St Cuthbert thought was deserved. It all fitted in nicely with the plot and the attonement he had taken some weeks earleir which changed his alignment to neutral good after getting his soul tainted by some nasty support girders (those who have played this campaign will understand :))

Anyhow, that is how I see VoP working, it is not just a feat that can be taken lightly, it is a big deal that needs in character build up. As for the balance thing I really wouldnt worry about it. Even as a druid, which benefit most from VoP because of the wildshaping thing, it has not been overpowered. If you used the main stat bonus on strength then I guess later on you would get some pretty big damage potential but meanwhile your mates are using their holy avengers, potions of curing, boots of spider climb, wands of magic missiles, adamant. great axes, rods of power etc etc so who cares?

The biggest benefit for the druid is that you don't have to cast so many spells before you go into combat because you already have some of those benefits permanently in place (magic fang, align fang, stat bonus spells) which also means you have more spell slots to play around with because you don't need to memorise the usual buffs. Armour class is better in wildshape, but probably worse in normal form.

These bonuses are all very useful, but they really should be when you keep in mind you will never be able to use anything but a stick for the rest of your lives. Druids, Monks and sorcerors all do okay out of VoP and are playable. Almost any other class with VoP would be either very challenging or unplayable. Fighters, barbarians, clerics and paladins would really struggle with the lack of armour and inability to use decent weapons, wizards are probably impossible RAW because of the spellbook issues, and regardless of that wizards tend to use a lot of scrolls and wands. Rangers again need the armour and weapons, particularly if they want to be competant at range and Rogues just shouldn't be allowed to take VoP, they are still Thieves in my head!

I don't think the feat is broken, it is just better for some classes than others. Given some spare time I would be inclined to sit down and re-write it to help make it better for the other classes, but that probably means doing lots of class specific versions so would probably only do it if one of my players wanted to take it.
AtmaWeapon
05-08-07, 12:15 PM Rogues just shouldn't be allowed to take VoP, they are still Thieves in my head!

Robin Hood.
runestar
05-08-07, 10:52 PM Robin hood is good, but I would say that he is not exalted.
To be exalted, you are supposed to be gooder than good. Robin Hood falls quite short in this aspect, IMO.

Not that it is impossible for rogues to be exalted though.:)
Flay Crimsonwind
05-08-07, 11:17 PM Vow of Poverty is fine; people are still arguing reasonably over whether or not it's broken, and that's never a sign that it needs to be fixed. When reason can challenge opinion, then it becomes a matter of one's opinion against others, and we shouldn't fix something if one person says it ain't broken and another disagrees.

Why for the love of all in the nine hells is there not a Vow of Greed? :D I'd take that!
DarkRhystar
05-09-07, 12:14 AM Why for the love of all in the nine hells is there not a Vow of Greed? :D I'd take that!

Rewrite Vow of Poverty to say that instead of giving away your money that you must always keep it with you and never spend any of it. Replace the exalted feats with something else.

Done.
Shadowhowler
05-09-07, 03:44 AM Flavour wise indeed I see no reason. As you say. But like your example it is indeed a transitional thing and the PC would lose an amount of wealth that would keep the feat balanced.
He loses a lot of bonus feats and still a significant portion of his wealth.

However if a new character would be made in a high level campaign and the player would come up to me and say "Yea he's taken the vow of poverty but he can't sell his composite plating and he also read a lot of stat tomes before taking the feat." I'd tell him to stuff it where the sun don't shine.

I was not sugesting it for a character that was made new at high levels, that is indeed chesse.

I was saying if you were playing the cracater... and through events in the game became intrested in the VoP, and took it... money that you have already spent enchanting yourself is gone, and your not going torip your body apart and try to give it to charaity, thats silly.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Joshua_Cail 05-07-07, 01:27 PM	I believe I've heard many people say that the Vow of Poverty is completely broken. It's one of the many things that give the BoED it's nickname, "The Book of Exalted Cheese." I agree in that it seems too powerful overall, but I can't pinpoint exactly what is wrong with it. I was wondering if anyone could tell me just what is broken about it and if anyone has come up with any fixes for it. If so, could you please either give me the link or repost it? Essentially, the Vow should give players equivalent powers to the amount of magic items, etc. you would normally acquire by each level, and maybe a little extra since you have less flexibility on which items to buy and severe limitations on the daily life of your character. Thanks
runestar 05-07-07, 01:34 PM	Naturally, the player who does take it will ensure that his character is designed so as to lose as little from no eq as possible. Monks benefit quite a lot from VOP. Especially in polymorph. Druids as well since VOP benefits carry over to wildshape. Soulknife is not a bad choice, since it has its own weapon. Take warforged so you have armour to enchant as well(though finding an opportunity to enchant it can be tricky).
Joshua_Cail 05-07-07, 01:50 PM	Would a possible fix be something that would then be customizable for characters? At each level, give them several options, or just make it an ability system, where you gain greater abilities at certain levels, lesser abilities at others, and least abilities at really unimportant levels? Or maybe different types of the vow that you choose. Kind of like the new variant for monks from unearthed arcana that lets you choose a particular fighting style.
Radijs 05-07-07, 02:02 PM	I still have to see how vow of poverty is broken. If you add the diffrent abilities together they end up with a lot less compared to items bought with normal gold. I'll have to say though that what Runestar says about a warforged enchanting his armor breaks the vow.
Part-Human2 05-07-07, 05:06 PM	There's a Save My Game online Article on VoP on the WotC site.
StruckingFuggle 05-07-07, 06:45 PM	Essentially, the Vow should give players equivalent powers to the amount of magic items, etc. you would normally acquire by each level, and maybe a little extra since you have less flexibility on which items to buy and severe limitations on the daily life of your character. Shocking truth: VoP's bonuses actually put you behind the curve. A player could, generally, buy the benefits of VoP and still have money left over, if the DM is following or exceeding the Wealth By Level guidelines that the game is balanced around. Plus, it costs you two feats, one of which has almost no benefit. In return, you get a bunch of exalted feats. Ooooooh, how ... nifty. (can you sense the sarcastic underwhelmedness?) Short of DM Monkeying Around, it's not overpowered. It's underpowered and inflexible (which is horrible in and of itself) with great PR. Plus, short of DM Monkeying Around, it has stringent rp requirements that might just drive your group up the wall. It shines in some situations (on the generally rare time you'd get robbed or otherwise stripped of your items, and in low-magic games), but by and large, in general, "VoP = zomg teh POWAH!" is a baseless myth.
magmer2 05-07-07, 08:18 PM	I still have to see how vow of poverty is broken. If you add the diffrent abilities together they end up with a lot less compared to items bought with normal gold. I'll have to say though that what Runestar says about a warforged enchanting his armor breaks the vow. It's all on how you do your math. You see if you count all the abilities as slot less, which might matter to meld shapers, and count the +8 enhancement bonus to an ability score as epic. cuz you could have blew all your money on tomes then took this feat, then the value from that one ability is over 1.2 million. Now a more reasonable calculation would be 36k for +6. and ~20 for a +2 tome, and not counting slots because slots are almost useless.
DarkRhystar 05-07-07, 08:25 PM	It shines in some situations (on the generally rare time you'd get robbed or otherwise stripped of your items, and in low-magic games), but by and large, in general, "VoP = zomg teh POWAH!" is a baseless myth. It's not really that much of a myth considering it seems like most DMs that complain about it are the ones not following DMG guidelines and running low magic games.
runestar 05-07-07, 10:58 PM	I'll have to say though that what Runestar says about a warforged enchanting his armor breaks the vow. Depends on your interpretation of it, IMO. Your body armour is not really considered a material possession(it cannot be broken off and sold, for example). By extension, even if his body composite plating has been enchanted to +10, it would still have no intrinsic value, simply because it is ultimately a feat which just happens to emulate an item, and not an actual item itself. Of course, the challenge then comes on how to enchant it. You cannot use gold, since you are expected to donate that. Even if a spellcaster offers to do it for you, you are expected to reject his offer and request that the share be donated instead. Wish could be a viable solution, but you should be using your wish to benefit others rather than using it to augment your composite plating. All in all, it is not impossible, merely unlikely.
Shadowhowler 05-08-07, 12:19 AM	Depends on your interpretation of it, IMO. Your body armour is not really considered a material possession(it cannot be broken off and sold, for example). By extension, even if his body composite plating has been enchanted to +10, it would still have no intrinsic value, simply because it is ultimately a feat which just happens to emulate an item, and not an actual item itself. Of course, the challenge then comes on how to enchant it. You cannot use gold, since you are expected to donate that. Even if a spellcaster offers to do it for you, you are expected to reject his offer and request that the share be donated instead. Wish could be a viable solution, but you should be using your wish to benefit others rather than using it to augment your composite plating. All in all, it is not impossible, merely unlikely. Easiest way to do something like that would be take the vow later in game. MOST of the VoP granted abilities are retroactive, only the additional Exhualted Feats are not. So if you played a Warforged up to 12-15 whatever... spent all your gold enchanting your BODY... then took the VoP later, you would still have the benifit of all the stuff you paid for before, that is a permenent part of you now... and all the VoP features, except those extra feats.
Magrus 05-08-07, 12:36 AM	A DM who let a person just switch gears when they planned to invest all of their wealth into themselves then say "I give all of my stuff to the people!" right after needs to get a grip. Thats like someone like Bill Gates tossing a $5 bill at a homeless person and saying he's a charitable person. If a 5th level character who gave away their only magic sword and chain shirt, and that potion of cure light wounds to others and took the feat, that would be a different story and make sense.
runestar 05-08-07, 01:12 AM	A DM who let a person just switch gears when they planned to invest all of their wealth into themselves then say "I give all of my stuff to the people!" right after needs to get a grip. Thats like someone like Bill Gates tossing a $5 bill at a homeless person and saying he's a charitable person. No, it would be more like a millionaire, after having enjoyed decades of high living, suddenly decided to give his entire wealth to various charities, while leaving zilch for himself. That the millionaire just happens to have only $5 left to his name because of whatever reason is irrelevant...:P Incidentally, this allows the warforged to enchant his own armour, splurge on stat tomes, then donate whatever is left to charity in the name of VOP, which incidentally happens to be nothing...:D
Radijs 05-08-07, 02:55 AM	Oh its quite simple, my interpretation is the right one. Rule 0 remember? Enchanting composite plating = broken vow Getting tomes before taking the vow = smack with corner of my dmg. See? Not that hard.
Qwicksilver 05-08-07, 03:07 AM	People have mentioned this a bit before, but I'd like to know a few more details on VoP, and shapechange abilities. Does VoP with shapechange create a whole lot of balance problems? Just asking, but I was never one to judge the brokenness of one aspect of the game on its synergy with another much more broken aspect of the game.
Radijs 05-08-07, 03:17 AM	The most important thing about VoP and shapechanging abilities (I'm going to leave the shapechange spell out of this) is that you get a few enhancement bonuses to ability scores and attack/damage rolls. Since these are not from items they work in wildshape as well. This makes the powerful druid class even more powerful. But if you ask me, I can make a druid much more deadly with wealth per level then with the VoP.
JulesCARV 05-08-07, 04:04 AM	If you're running a low magic game with Vow of Poverty, I think it only makes sense to give VoP benefits commensurate with the level at which the other characters would expect to achieve their actual wealth if the wealth guidelines of DMG 135 were followed. For example, if you're running a campaign in which typical 10th level characters have about 10,000 gp worth of gear, you should note that they have wealth between that expected for a 5th (9,000) and 6th (13,000) level character. As such, you give the benefits of Vow of Poverty as if they were 5th level.
runestar 05-08-07, 04:05 AM	Oh its quite simple, my interpretation is the right one. Rule 0 remember? Enchanting composite plating = broken vow Getting tomes before taking the vow = smack with corner of my dmg. See? Not that hard. You must admit though - it is not really all that difficult to justify it rp wise. :)
Radijs 05-08-07, 04:20 AM	Please, indulge me. Seriously though, if something like that would happen. A warforged with enchanted plates and/or tomes of whatever in his head taking the vow I would, in all fairness stage a divine intervention removing the magical effects from him and replace them with coin. Then he can do the right thing and donate it to charity.
runestar 05-08-07, 04:43 AM	Well, VOP does not stipulate that you have to donate a minimum sum to charity. It just states that you give it all away, however much(or little) that may be. This means that a commoner who is dirt poor can still qualify for said feat(in theory at least), even if he donates just a few copper each year(because that is all he can scrape together), so long as he adheres to the tenets of the vow. Nor does the VOP feat state that it must be taken at 1st lv only. There is no reason why a normal paladin cannot continue adventuring as is, then take the feat at higher lvs(perhaps rp'ing the transition). Perhaps in gratitude for his god curing his sister of a serious disease which has every healer stymied, he agrees to forsake all his material possessions and take on a charitable cause(effectively taking on the VOP feat). As the effect of the vow is not retroactive, you do not need to give up any instantaneous benefits you may otherwise have gotten, such as tomes. Alternatively, if I had used wishes to boost the relevant stat, I see no reason why I should be expected to give that up either. You may be right in that it could pose a possible abuse of in-game mechanics, but I see no reason for this to be enforced flavour-wise. Could you perhaps supply me with one? Excluding "I am the dm and what I say goes?":) On a side note, I have always wanted to give a dragon the VOP feat and pit one against the PCs...:D
Radijs 05-08-07, 05:45 AM	Flavour wise indeed I see no reason. As you say. But like your example it is indeed a transitional thing and the PC would lose an amount of wealth that would keep the feat balanced. He loses a lot of bonus feats and still a significant portion of his wealth. However if a new character would be made in a high level campaign and the player would come up to me and say "Yea he's taken the vow of poverty but he can't sell his composite plating and he also read a lot of stat tomes before taking the feat." I'd tell him to stuff it where the sun don't shine.
efreeti 05-08-07, 11:56 AM	Wishes should be seen as a seperate thing to wealth, surely it has to be a case by case basis? If a character had got stat increases from a wish scroll they had found in a treasure horde and had just used them purely to increase their power then that is effectivley wealth and no different from a stat increase got from a tome or similar item. It should probably be taken away. If the wish related bonus had been gained because the character decided to use this valuable resource in the heat of the moment to better aid him in the destruction of XXX and help save the lives of the poor orphans then maybe the divine aspect granting the VoP would look upon that favourably and let him\her keep it. If a divine power is strong enough to grant the benefits of a VoP to a charcter then I see no reason why it is not strong enough to take away any benefits that charcter has gained in the past as a result of his\her wealth. I took VoP for my 14th level druid and we made quite a big thing out of it in game. I took it because of an alignment change brought on by big events which involved the destruction of a big town. Lots of people left homeless, the druid decided it weas not right for him to carry around all this wealth whilst they had nothing. He gave all his stuff to the fleeing refugees to help them fight off the demons and pledged to continue the fight only with the stick in his hand and whatever help St Cuthbert thought was deserved. It all fitted in nicely with the plot and the attonement he had taken some weeks earleir which changed his alignment to neutral good after getting his soul tainted by some nasty support girders (those who have played this campaign will understand :)) Anyhow, that is how I see VoP working, it is not just a feat that can be taken lightly, it is a big deal that needs in character build up. As for the balance thing I really wouldnt worry about it. Even as a druid, which benefit most from VoP because of the wildshaping thing, it has not been overpowered. If you used the main stat bonus on strength then I guess later on you would get some pretty big damage potential but meanwhile your mates are using their holy avengers, potions of curing, boots of spider climb, wands of magic missiles, adamant. great axes, rods of power etc etc so who cares? The biggest benefit for the druid is that you don't have to cast so many spells before you go into combat because you already have some of those benefits permanently in place (magic fang, align fang, stat bonus spells) which also means you have more spell slots to play around with because you don't need to memorise the usual buffs. Armour class is better in wildshape, but probably worse in normal form. These bonuses are all very useful, but they really should be when you keep in mind you will never be able to use anything but a stick for the rest of your lives. Druids, Monks and sorcerors all do okay out of VoP and are playable. Almost any other class with VoP would be either very challenging or unplayable. Fighters, barbarians, clerics and paladins would really struggle with the lack of armour and inability to use decent weapons, wizards are probably impossible RAW because of the spellbook issues, and regardless of that wizards tend to use a lot of scrolls and wands. Rangers again need the armour and weapons, particularly if they want to be competant at range and Rogues just shouldn't be allowed to take VoP, they are still Thieves in my head! I don't think the feat is broken, it is just better for some classes than others. Given some spare time I would be inclined to sit down and re-write it to help make it better for the other classes, but that probably means doing lots of class specific versions so would probably only do it if one of my players wanted to take it.
AtmaWeapon 05-08-07, 12:15 PM	Rogues just shouldn't be allowed to take VoP, they are still Thieves in my head! Robin Hood.
runestar 05-08-07, 10:52 PM	Robin hood is good, but I would say that he is not exalted. To be exalted, you are supposed to be gooder than good. Robin Hood falls quite short in this aspect, IMO. Not that it is impossible for rogues to be exalted though.:)
Flay Crimsonwind 05-08-07, 11:17 PM	Vow of Poverty is fine; people are still arguing reasonably over whether or not it's broken, and that's never a sign that it needs to be fixed. When reason can challenge opinion, then it becomes a matter of one's opinion against others, and we shouldn't fix something if one person says it ain't broken and another disagrees. Why for the love of all in the nine hells is there not a Vow of Greed? :D I'd take that!
DarkRhystar 05-09-07, 12:14 AM	Why for the love of all in the nine hells is there not a Vow of Greed? :D I'd take that! Rewrite Vow of Poverty to say that instead of giving away your money that you must always keep it with you and never spend any of it. Replace the exalted feats with something else. Done.
Shadowhowler 05-09-07, 03:44 AM	Flavour wise indeed I see no reason. As you say. But like your example it is indeed a transitional thing and the PC would lose an amount of wealth that would keep the feat balanced. He loses a lot of bonus feats and still a significant portion of his wealth. However if a new character would be made in a high level campaign and the player would come up to me and say "Yea he's taken the vow of poverty but he can't sell his composite plating and he also read a lot of stat tomes before taking the feat." I'd tell him to stuff it where the sun don't shine. I was not sugesting it for a character that was made new at high levels, that is indeed chesse. I was saying if you were playing the cracater... and through events in the game became intrested in the VoP, and took it... money that you have already spent enchanting yourself is gone, and your not going torip your body apart and try to give it to charaity, thats silly.